PRR Catenary Project

[steemtrayn]

Maybe you could turn some spiders loose on your layout. When they're done spinning webs on the cat poles, just remove the ones that don't look like they belong.

[topcopdoc]

PRR Catenary

 

Nice job Green Elite Cab.

 

 Like other Pennsy fans I bought several electrics but don’t run them because of the absence of the catenary. It is hard to resist the look of the GG1’s and MP54’s.

 

I am reconsidering at least installing the towers without wire since my telephone poles don’t have wires either. I am looking forward to your updates on the construction.

 

Doc

 

[green_elite_cab]

Yeah, those are fine for wye tracks. However, except for three of them, none are on the main, and of those three, only one appears to be on a curve. 

I suppose i've seen close spacing of supports up by Metropark too, just south of the station. however, the ones inbetween don't have transmission lines, which is probably why it didn't stand out to me at first.    

Still,  i want to avoid putting them to close, even if it is prototypical in places.  Since the curves on my layout aren't meant to be tight wye curves, they're mainline,  i might space them out farther to help give it that feel.

The only reason i'd put them much closer is if it really does hold them in line better.  I figure i can splice in a new catenary bridge in the future if i had to.

[accatenary]

green_elite_cab

Yeah, i think we found that one spot on the "Mainline" to Harrisburg with the curved switch.  i don't think Bing or Google has good enough resolution to really see the wire. 

I didn't know Rubbo had a video,  but my plan is to learn the hard way on pole spacing.  I REALLY don't think the poles need to be that close on the curves.   10" inches is absolutely RIDCULOUS. I'm not even going to try and defend that one, its shorter than a passenger car.   At that point, the catenary is NOT proportionate.

BIng or google is good enough to see the spacing of poles And thats how you tell how the wire is layed out.

Yes Rubbo has a video on Youtube.. Do a search on Youtube .. under PRR catenary

10" spacing less than the lenghth of a passenger car is actually prototypical when dealing with sharp curves on the NEC  There are plenty examples from Washington Union to Penn Sta NY

1. the Wye at wedge yard.. Ivy City MD

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qgk2d28kh759&lvl=18.52107891981207&dir=7.583722881817013&sty=b

2. main line catenary B&P tunnel Baltimore South portal Great example  Intermediate small supports

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qjh70k8mc8k4&lvl=18.97969348323083&dir=359.0309086525088&sty=b

3. main line catenary B&P tunnel Baltimore North portal Great example  small spacing at tight interlocking

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qjjh398mfj8h&lvl=18&dir=0&sty=b

4. Wye at perryville MD  I figure in HO these Poles on the inside of the curve would be 6" apart

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qksr9g8ntgvf&lvl=18.293169909082337&dir=13.976250364639428&sty=b 

Charlie Grant Modelled this area and the inclined catenary around the curve is almost flat

5. Wye at wilmington Shops

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qmqph98q5hhm&lvl=18.30821180476617&dir=174.21502667216455&sty=b

6. Wye at arsenal  this was a two track wye

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qnqrtm8r0gmq&lvl=18.699730639908594&dir=356.9082466811102&sty=b

7. wye at Zoo on the "New York Subway"

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qnvp9j8r01gz&lvl=18.724599889379806&dir=183.50003179124036&sty=b

8. extreme curve at North Philly  Chesnut hill west line

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qnzn8t8r37yk&lvl=18.739779702771976&dir=0.5316171663931343&sty=b

9. catenary craziness in Trenton ??? @ former barracks yard

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qq3zd98s46rz&lvl=18&dir=0&sty=b

and wye above that with Wood Poles

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qq5hwb8s55sq&lvl=18.479822240422542&dir=357.2414257234046&sty=b

10. Dingy Line at princeton Junction

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qqkgry8sf6jt&lvl=19.560764448479762&dir=177.89442435066903&sty=b

Catenary is cramped and cluttered !!

 

[green_elite_cab]

accatenary

 

 

 

yes, i can see in the photos that your e-44 pants are pushing the catenary up. I guess a screw up with the pant would bring everything down. just like in real life  WOW..

 

 When i talked to him, he said he might not even run pans up, or may set them to just be below the wire, just to prevent that sort of damage from occurring (apparently it already had).

 

 

 

 

yeah i remmember that switch..  I suggest you look at PRR catenary from the air on Google or on Bing maps  the radius of the track is going to determine where the poles are going to be. Inclined catenary  is like trolley wire In plan. You draw the cords(tangents) off the wire  where the tangents intersect is where the poles are located using the inner curve as the guide. In Rubbos video he has curved catenary at 12-13" spacing and his curve looks like 36"-48" plus radius. If you are doing min 22 radius your spacing should be around 10" . using Rubbos video as a guide again  on tangent track you dont see two passenger cars between cat poles you see 1-1/2"  16-18" spacing.  It might be a function of preventing wire sag or what.  I think if you space your poles at 14-16" on tangent track i dont think it will looked cluttered just the opposite on a small pike.   If one had #12 switches and all the room in the world 24" spacing would look good.. its all a matter of proportion

Yeah, i think we found that one spot on the "Mainline" to Harrisburg with the curved switch.  i don't think Bing or Google has good enough resolution to really see the wire. 

I didn't know Rubbo had a video,  but my plan is to learn the hard way on pole spacing.  I REALLY don't think the poles need to be that close on the curves.   10" inches is absolutely RIDCULOUS. I'm not even going to try and defend that one, its shorter than a passenger car.   At that point, the catenary is NOT proportionate.

I think if you pull the wires right and attach it all firmly, it will stay.  Besides, i'm using heavier, stiffer wire than Rubbo did,   And i've gotten it to hold it's shape in experiments with mounting it.  even just the axuiliary/trolley wire is pretty rigid, and this is without messenger wires holding it in place.

 

 

 

Reading catenary is quite interesting in its own way. even the little two track catenary supports.  be thankfull you dont  model the New Haven..  I think your club could use some RDG catenary..  

 

 

I think it would to.   Besides, the area in question will need a "cover" on their Reading line, which is right in front, to keep people from putting their elbows on it.  Once its in, it should also shield the catenary.   The next step would be making it "collapsible" so i can remove it to do maintenance.

[accatenary]

Kachel has what appears to be  24" catenary spacing on his huge empire on tangents and 18"-20" catenary spacing on curves

[accatenary]

green_elite_cab

I would have loved to run mine under it myself, but not only are they not set up for pantograph operation, but because his IS a finer scale, the spring strength of most models is to great for the catenary.   if you look in some of the pictures i took of the module, the E44 pans actually do press up on the wire.

yes, i can see in the photos that your e-44 pants are pushing the catenary up. I guess a screw up with the pant would bring everything down. just like in real life  WOW..

green_elite_cab

I agree with half of that, some compression is needed, but this has to do more with the unrealistically tight curves on a model railroad layout, and possibly things such as switches (you can remember how that one curved switch on my layout will be a pain in the butt).  

yeah i remmember that switch..  I suggest you look at PRR catenary from the air on Google or on Bing maps  the radius of the track is going to determine where the poles are going to be. Inclined catenary  is like trolley wire In plan. You draw the cords(tangents) off the wire  where the tangents intersect is where the poles are located using the inner curve as the guide. In Rubbos video he has curved catenary at 12-13" spacing and his curve looks like 36"-48" plus radius. If you are doing min 22 radius your spacing should be around 10" . using Rubbos video as a guide again  on tangent track you dont see two passenger cars between cat poles you see 1-1/2"  16-18" spacing.  It might be a function of preventing wire sag or what.  I think if you space your poles at 14-16" on tangent track i dont think it will looked cluttered just the opposite on a small pike.   If one had #12 switches and all the room in the world 24" spacing would look good.. its all a matter of proportion

green_elite_cab

However, i can't say that i agree with that spacing.  2' spacing is just fine on straight portions of track,  and i think i have it so that on the curves, the outer pole spacing is 18", and the inner is 14".

If my catenary poles were that close, i think it would clutter my layout WAY to much,  and if you park a passenger train under it, it will look bizarre, since you can get at least two passenger cars between catenary poles.

I was thinking for the Reading stuff I'd like to do, I'd stick to the brass H-columns and I Beams with the riveted angle supports.   While i know that lattice brass parts do exist, i'm not sure if they're what i want (and i don't have the tools to make my own yet), and i suspect that this H and I beam type is much easier to construct.

I never noticed those "wishbone" supports,  but they look interesting.  I was going to go with the diamond shape featured in my Conrail CT290 and "Electric Trains to Reading Terminal" book.   I'll definitely keep this type in mind though.

Right now, i think i can sell my club on some reading style catenary and it would need to stay low down, so i think this can work.

Reading catenary is quite interesting in its own way. even the little two track catenary supports.  be thankfull you dont  model the New Haven..  I think your club could use some RDG catenary..  

 

[jwhitten]

green_elite_cab

 

This is his Lane Tower, my E44s

 

Very nice E-44's! Brass, I presume?

 

John

[green_elite_cab]

I would have loved to run mine under it myself, but not only are they not set up for pantograph operation, but because his IS a finer scale, the spring strength of most models is to great for the catenary.   if you look in some of the pictures i took of the module, the E44 pans actually do press up on the wire.

I agree with half of that, some compression is needed, but this has to do more with the unrealistically tight curves on a model railroad layout, and possibly things such as switches (you can remember how that one curved switch on my layout will be a pain in the butt).  

However, i can't say that i agree with that spacing.  2' spacing is just fine on straight portions of track,  and i think i have it so that on the curves, the outer pole spacing is 18", and the inner is 14".

If my catenary poles were that close, i think it would clutter my layout WAY to much,  and if you park a passenger train under it, it will look bizarre, since you can get at least two passenger cars between catenary poles.

I was thinking for the Reading stuff I'd like to do, I'd stick to the brass H-columns and I Beams with the riveted angle supports.   While i know that lattice brass parts do exist, i'm not sure if they're what i want (and i don't have the tools to make my own yet), and i suspect that this H and I beam type is much easier to construct.

I never noticed those "wishbone" supports,  but they look interesting.  I was going to go with the diamond shape featured in my Conrail CT290 and "Electric Trains to Reading Terminal" book.   I'll definitely keep this type in mind though.

Right now, i think i can sell my club on some reading style catenary and it would need to stay low down, so i think this can work.

 

 

 

[accatenary]

Chris, Silverliner IV looks good.. Yeah Andy Rubbo Catenary is the Best.. The details are INSANE   I want to see Pantographs slide under it touching the wire  Also I must Note that Ando Rubbo is a Prototype modeler and even so it appears that he has catenary spacing at 16"-18"  which is a compression. I believe compression is something you must do with model catenary, since most of us dont have a factory space for a Prototype model railroad. Prototype catenary structures are 200'-250' apart which will look ridiculus on a small model railroad being spaced 2'-3'  My spacing is more like 12"-14" spacing.  I think you should keep this in mind when building or planning your catenary  

as For the Reading Railroad my second favorite Road after the PRR of course. I have developed a typical drawings for four track latice bridges that exist in the North Philly Area. The catenary bridges have the feeder line brackets toward the center of the structure to avoid close clearances to factories and other structures that existing along that portion of the ROW ( btwn Reading Terminal and Wayne Junction)  After Wayne Junction The feeder Brackets are located outboard.  The secondary catenary support in the middle is a wishbone bracket. Not many of these are still left after the Railworks project in the 90s but they are stricky a Reading detail.

I plan on placing 5 of these catenary bridges 12" apart in the New Reading railroad North Philly section (still in construction) on my layout shown below.  This used to be a staging area.. note the simple trolley wire. Now its being sceniced

[green_elite_cab]

ndbprr

There was a presentation three years ago at the PRRT&HS convention by an east coast guy who tells you how he did it in the Keystone Modeler from about that time.  It may still be available on the society web page.  Best I have ever seen.

 

Yup, that was Mr. Rubbo.  I met him once at a rail prototype meet last october.   He let me stage some of my electrics on his lane tower module.

His work is top notch!  I'm surprised he hasn't made it into some of these other magazines.

This is his Lane Tower, my E44s

[ndbprr]

There was a presentation three years ago at the PRRT&HS convention by an east coast guy who tells you how he did it in the Keystone Modeler from about that time.  It may still be available on the society web page.  Best I have ever seen.

[green_elite_cab]

Hamltnblue

You should contact this guy to see how he did it and maybe get some tips.

http://prrnortheastcorridor.com/NORTHEASTCORRIDORHO.html

I've talked with him much, and hes has definitely been helpful when it comes to researching the catenary configurations on curved turnouts and crossovers.  

He definitely has an impressive set up, and the only thing i think he needs more is better lighting for his pictures and videos!

 

RDG1519

The models you have made look superb!

Have you seen the kits offered by  modelmemories.com 

They are PRR design, different from Reading Company which I am modeling.

 

Great work!!

Chris

 

Reading Eh?  I actually had plans to make the Reading Style catenary as part of a module.  I've got a lot of the drawings and dimensions for that to.   I was originally planning on buying IHP Reading MUs,  but i might save my money for some of the other MUs he has coming (like Arrow IIs).

I DO have a reading Silverliner IV.  These are on the Burlington County Model Railroad in Cinnaminson, NJ

 

 

[7j43k]

There are so many really interesting electrics.  But, with electrics, you're either in our you're out (overhead and all).  I think, anyway.  I chose out.  Except for my Bachmann Virginian rectifiers.   Couldn't help myself, there.

So, I'm getting vicarious thrills here--please keep me/us posted as things continue.

 

Ed

[RDG1519]

The models you have made look superb!

Have you seen the kits offered by  modelmemories.com 

They are PRR design, different from Reading Company which I am modeling.

 

Great work!!

Chris

[Hamltnblue]

You should contact this guy to see how he did it and maybe get some tips.

http://prrnortheastcorridor.com/NORTHEASTCORRIDORHO.html

[green_elite_cab]

well, i'm going to bump this, a year later after the first post.     I have and have not made progress. I've actually got a pair of catenary structures built up and nearly completed, and another two on the way (that makes 4).

I could actually bang these out much faster,  but the problem has always been time.  I have lots of college classes (jn fact, i only have another two weeks before i need to get rolling again on Molecular Genetics and fun stuff like that).

The other huge part of the hold up has been research.   Because my layout is small, and turnouts are crammed in interesting places, it required me to do a few months of hunting just to determine how the catenary should be built in these areas (whether i'd need pull of poles, how the catenary should cross together, etc.).  It took me 6 months of research to actually iron that out.      Indeed, i've got my hands on PRR schematics and diagrams on the actual bits and pieces themselves.

Its also been good that i held up, because i've met people "in the know" such as Andy Rubbo (hes a very interesting guy, and he let me stage some shots on one of his excellent modules).  With the information i've collected,  I feel much more confident to proceed.

Here are some photographs of my progress  Not really the best shot of my electrics, but you can see that the catenary looks just fine, even without the wires installed

My triplet of E44A locomotives.  These are Alpha models.  Alco made one, but its a out of scale grinder. it looks good, but these Alphas built in 1989 areto scale (they look right next to an E33).

The next catenary pole location is in the fore ground (you can also see it in the above photo).  Its going to require me to rebuild my passenger station, but thats fine.    I kinda wish i could expand my track plan, but i have no more space to do this, so this area will be as it is.

 

In the way back, you can see the other pole, but its not as complete (need grab irons still and transmission insulators still. Its also the first to get bumped by people).  I need to put up some shields along the edges when i'm not running the trains.

Here is a close up of some of the detail.   I also have grab irons in the appropriate locations, thanks to a member of my club who is an excellent machinist.  He made me a jig that allows me to produce the handrails quickly.

 

Some more cool pictures-  SEPTA Penn Central Silverliner IIIs that i'm building.  these are old IHP models i picked up for $35 for the both of them (they're usually $165 EACH).  They're  alittle warped, but its better than nothing (these models are long out of production).  I'm thinking i can bolt them down straight. 

 

[green_elite_cab]

 well, this has been in the planning stages ever since i started with the hobby,  and i figure my layout is fairly small.  In fact, once the bridges get built, the catenary should go up very quickly.    The wires only look complicated in photos.   when they are right there in front of you at your fingertips, they make more sense.

[tatans]

Yikes ! Have you gone mad?  Just how many decades have you set aside to complete this massive undertaking ?   You must be commended for the project but this must be a  5 or 10 year plan, the amount of time to build ONE pole is amazing. As they say, "keeps you out of the bar"

[green_elite_cab]

 

accatenary

Chris

Nice work man! I love the grab irons.. Cant wait to see other poles and catenary

Are you going to be making primarily k braced structures or a mix ?  Are you going to put on signal line and feeder line

 

Probably a mix.  I've experimented with a cable cross-spans, and i think they could be done just as easy as any other style span if done right.

 

Actually, i am planning to add the signal and feeder lines,  but i have come to a decision on what configuration i want.  It will probably just be a 6 foot angle with two insulators on each end on facing east on the westbound side pole, as this seems to be the most common for the photos i've researched. 

[green_elite_cab]

tinman1

Looking good! I might suggest finding a good shrink BEFORE you go mad.

 To late!

 

Coming up with a good jig will make this a much more pleasant job, and look better as well since it will add some uniformity that is hard to achieve without.

 I have jigs for the main structure so that the poles and cross braces line up.  I'm going to stick to keeping the only real changes to the structures being the height of the transmission lines

I would really like to have some electrified territory in the future. There is something about it that adds the business of the railroad without jamming lots of undersize buildings in for the whole length.

Not to mention, GG1s look silly without it!

I've looked at many pictures, and all the pictures I have viewed have all the lines going under bridges, and actually the bridge can be considered as one of the towers since it supports the lines.

 

 Those may support the catenary, but the transmission lines on top almost ALWAYS  go over any obstacles to the track.  The transmission lines themselves are by law required to be higher over the contact wire area. 

[accatenary]

Chris

Nice work man! I love the grab irons.. Cant wait to see other poles and catenary

Are you going to be making primarily k braced structures or a mix ?  Are you going to put on signal line and feeder line

[tinman1]

Looking good! I might suggest finding a good shrink BEFORE you go mad. Coming up with a good jig will make this a much more pleasant job, and look better as well since it will add some uniformity that is hard to achieve without. I would really like to have some electrified territory in the future. There is something about it that adds the business of the railroad without jamming lots of undersize buildings in for the whole length. I've looked at many pictures, and all the pictures I have viewed have all the lines going under bridges, and actually the bridge can be considered as one of the towers since it supports the lines. 

[green_elite_cab]

 I wish it were straight forward.  In truth, its not to difficult, but my track shifts every year, lol.  I think the worst part is i'm stuck with a small layout that is probably going to make it tough to realistically wire the turnouts in some spots.  However, the mainlines and crossovers shouldn't be TOO difficult.

To be honest, if you plan properly, i don't think adding trolley and messenger wires would be much of a problem. Its all about making jigs and making the process modular. 

I've spent years studying and making little mock-ups.  I think I'm on target now.   However, I figure its worth having the wires for the pantographs to run on.   Over a third of my locomotives (and i have a large fleet) are electric. I have a ton of AEM7s, E60s, E33s and some fancy GG1s.

I also either have or plan to own several of the local EMU cars that some manufacturers are coming out with.  I also have invested alot in some unique brass engines, like PRR E44As (though they are painted in Conrail schemes).  I'm always working on rebuilding old models like Bachmann Metroliners or E60CFs. I'm a juice jack alright!  

 I'm still pretty sure i'm the only one models the early Conrail years when they still ran electrics.   That i can still call for myself, lol!

[tomikawaTT]

Very nice work! 

What kind of trackwork are you planning to have real wire over?  Something simple, straightforward and absolutely bulletproof, I hope.  I could imagine the spiderweb of catenary over the multi-slip-switch puzzle palace at the down end of my Tomikawa station, But I'd rather not...

I've taken a leaf from the Japanese modeling book, and will settle for 'virtual' catenary - poles (more usually overbridges,) tensioners, substations; just no contact or suspender wires.  In my book, ease of operation trumps cosmetic accuracy.

Incidentally, you aren't the only mainline motor operator.  I have HOj scale (1:80) mainline motors old enough to run for president, including two (ED161 and ED1618) that I used to see regularly dragging limestone trains past my humble abode along the Ohme-sen in Western Tokyo-to.  Most of my motors are EFs - twelve drivers in several different wheel arrangements.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with steam, diesel-hydraulics, catenary motors, DMU and EMU)

[green_elite_cab]

Well, i've begun work on my more realistic, super-detailed catenary.  THIS is what i wanted to do for that contest, but could not.

  I basically only have one pole mostly done, as it is TEDIOUS adding some of the details, mainly the grab iron ladders.      The transmission arms are on, as are the insulators.   All this pole will need is possibly a signal line, and it will need various braces,   but these parts can wait until the overall Catenary structure is built to be installed.   On Friday, i hope to begin a few more poles,  so that i can roughly complete  about three or four catenary bridges.  


I basically started with a three foot piece of 5/32 brass H-column stock,   and a pair of scale 13 foot long brass "A1" angles (smallest angles you can get from special shapes, i think).     I went ahead and marked their location on the pole, which is a little lower in the case of the catenary  along Perth Amboy, NJ,  which is where i draw my inspiration from.    As such, i am only adding one set of arms per pole, rather than two like on the Northeast Corridor.     After carefully lining them up, i soldered the two angles back -to- back on the pole,  and then pulled the tips together and soldered them as well.



I then used a dremel drill press and a small high-speed cutter to make little dimples in the side of the pole for the support wires that hold each arm up.  I soldered a length of wire into the dimple, and used flush cutters to cut the wire just as it reaches the tip of the transmission arms.  I then soldered this loose end of the wires to the tips.     I then put the pole into a grabber-stand (not sure what they are really called, roll with it!  :roll: ), and put a VERY small right angle bend at the end of the wire.  I then soldered this more or less in between the angle pieces.    These wires are the transmission line hangers, and they will hold the insulators later.    I cut each of these hangers a little longer than needed,  so that when i installed the insulators later,  i could be sure to have enough to make a hook on the bottom for the transmission lines themselves.   I then cut off the excess.




Next, i began the most tedious part of pole construction i have encountered so far.  Each pole, as i mention above, has a grab iron ladder. These ladders start just above the horizontal cross-brace (which is about 30 feet above the rails), and continue up to just below the highest transmission arm, if such a thing is present.   These grab irons need to be cut and shaped to fit.  I have no special jig to do this, so i literally sat here all day bending, cutting, and installing them. The one i built is also taller than normal to reach over the Highway bridges on my layout, so it took ALL DAY to cut, form, and CA the grabs in.   It isn't hard, but it does take time.

When i finished this, I installed 11-disk insulators onto the transmission hangars.  these are cut from the Tichy PRR Catenary Insulator parts.  You will need to cut one petticoat (disk) from one of the castings (they are made of 4 petticoats each).  Save this single petticoat, since it can be used for the signal power lines and other details later.   Once i slid these on (they are pre-cored),  i just bent a little right angle in the bottom, partly to keep the insulators from sliding off, and also so eventually a transmission line could be hung.



Finally, i made final measurements for the pole length.  I started from the top, and made sure my pole was high enough for the transmission lines to reach the height requirement, while also reaching an inch under my bench work where they will be anchored in.



This project is going to take me a while.  I'll update the thread when things get finished, or if I'm constructing something new, but there will likely be a long time of a lot of the same work being done before wires can be hung.