Actually, I spent about 4 years dabbling in large scale--and those live steamers really don't put out much more smoke than an MTH smoke unit--and indeed, it still tends to be white and not "dark" as some aficionado's might prefer.
The smoke stack is only one of several locations on a locomotive where steam escapes, such as dynamo, pop valve, whistle, cylinders, etc.
If you really want a smoking steam locomotive......then get a live steamer.
Dennis Blank Jr.
CEO,COO,CFO,CMO,Bossman,Slavedriver,Engineer,Trackforeman,Grunt. Birdsboro & Reading Railroad
The MTH engines of today are much better than even the memories of the Lionels of my childhood.
But, well, all of these things leave a bad smell behind them. In particular, I was at the Springfield show a few years back, and I remember feeling sorry for the people in the booths near MTH. I avoided not only the MTH booth, but also the ones adjacent to it, because the smoke was so heavy. My guess is that the MTH cloud cost those vendors significant sales. People may have come over to see the smoke engines, fairly new at the time, but they left quickly once they'd seen them.
I'm sensitive to smoke, and always have been. I don't care for the "aromatic candles" my wife likes to light all over the place, and it goes without saying that anti-smoking rules in workplaces and stores have made me very happy.
But, like cigarettes, I still believe people have the right to buy and enjoy smoking locomotives (or smoking guns, for that matter) as long as they are used properly and don't infringe on my greater "right" to breathe clean air. (I kind of like "Gunsmoke," actually, but the exposure is usually fleeting and limited.)
So, will someone come up with a "smoke" engine that uses a non-combustive technology, like perhaps electrostatically evaporated water vapor, to give us a clean, green steam model?
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I don't think it's worth it. Real steam locos spew out clouds of smoke, not the wisps of smoke that you see coming from models.
To the originator of the post, you have many answers. What do you want out of a smoking engine? More illusion, more fun? The newer systems are head and shoulders better than anything available even four years ago. If you really want to try smoke because you think you really like the effect, and could use it for an improvement to your enjoyment of the engine, then you wouldn't be the first. Many have been disappointed, but I'll bet far fewer than these days with the newer, better, smoke units.
The good thing about them, for about 100% of those who have them, is that they can be turned off. If this is where you eventually find yourself, you'd still be happy with the engine...wouldn't you?
-Crandell
I switched to MTH engines because, first of all, I wanted one steamer that really smoked (even if still a "winter white" smoke) for my small children.
We also experienced some issues with competitors' steam power that were rather frustrating. Mainly sound units not always working and not always possible to reset to factory defaults--but they might start working again days later...there were other things that were frustrating.
If the competition makes a steamer I have to have, I'll still buy it (and I have one on order), but lately I've otherwise bought only MTH.
UP 4-12-2 I'm not some newbie to this hobby who happens to just like "toy train smoke". In 1973 my father traded in somewhat worn out Lionel trains to English's Model RR Supply (home of Bowser) for my first HO trainset. I was 5. By age 12 or so, they refused to wait on me at the store--but instead said "you know where it is, get it yourself". At 18 (they were a machine shop, so you had to be 18) I worked there for several years while going through college--doing anything they needed. Anyhow, I've experienced firsthand the Seuthe smoke units of the 1970's. Today's MTH steamers are a far cry, night and day better than, the Seuthe smoke units of the 1970's. Also, you aren't paying for just the smoke system--but in fact are paying for a better running steam locomotive than, well, just about anything else. I've owned several $1200 and up brass articulated steamers, including three recent (circa 2003) OMI/Ajin 2-8-8-0's I bought brand new at the time, that had electrical issues and did not run well at all. Likewise, I've owned several other Key Imports/Samhongsa, PFM/United and Precision Scale steam engines. Now certainly the big dollar brass imports out there have details that MTH is unable to provide, but I've bought/sold/traded dozens of those brass models, and in actual running performance on the layout, they have nothing over MTH. The MTH engines, with their sophisticated electronics, do run exceptionally well on their DCS operating system--even moving at speeds as low as 1 scale mph indicated (if warmed up a little bit). I would compare them very favorably against anybody else's motive power. The MTH smoke units are fantastic--the synchronized chuff is first-rate--and they are certainly capable of smoking for up to perhaps a half hour. Regarding the comments about smoke oil getting "all over the engine" and "leaving a film everywhere". I disagree completely. Yes--if you spill it, it does run on the engine. It will eventually evaporate (over several weeks) and/or can be cleaned off with soap and water on a Q-tip swab. If you don't like the scent of the factory supplied smoke--they have about 15 other scents available, some of which (like "Christmas") are much better--but English's does not recommend the bacon and eggs scent. To my knowledge the smoke is mostly mineral oil and is classified as "non-toxic". The volume of smoke produced can be enough to fill up a room with smoke, so we don't use it all the time. There is no evidence of any film on my other rolling stock or anything else in the room from the MTH smoke fluid. I recommend using a dropper to avoid spilling the fluid on engines and then having the shiny residue there for awhile till it (mostly) evaporates. Again--it can be removed with soap and water. I prefer the LED lights and sound more than I like the smoke, but since the whole package of sound/lights/smoke absolutely captivates my children, I'm hoping it will be enough to keep their interest in the hobby. I like that MTH and others are making previously very expensive, or nearly unavailable, steam engines more readily available. John
I'm not some newbie to this hobby who happens to just like "toy train smoke".
In 1973 my father traded in somewhat worn out Lionel trains to English's Model RR Supply (home of Bowser) for my first HO trainset. I was 5. By age 12 or so, they refused to wait on me at the store--but instead said "you know where it is, get it yourself". At 18 (they were a machine shop, so you had to be 18) I worked there for several years while going through college--doing anything they needed.
Anyhow, I've experienced firsthand the Seuthe smoke units of the 1970's.
Today's MTH steamers are a far cry, night and day better than, the Seuthe smoke units of the 1970's. Also, you aren't paying for just the smoke system--but in fact are paying for a better running steam locomotive than, well, just about anything else. I've owned several $1200 and up brass articulated steamers, including three recent (circa 2003) OMI/Ajin 2-8-8-0's I bought brand new at the time, that had electrical issues and did not run well at all. Likewise, I've owned several other Key Imports/Samhongsa, PFM/United and Precision Scale steam engines. Now certainly the big dollar brass imports out there have details that MTH is unable to provide, but I've bought/sold/traded dozens of those brass models, and in actual running performance on the layout, they have nothing over MTH. The MTH engines, with their sophisticated electronics, do run exceptionally well on their DCS operating system--even moving at speeds as low as 1 scale mph indicated (if warmed up a little bit). I would compare them very favorably against anybody else's motive power.
The MTH smoke units are fantastic--the synchronized chuff is first-rate--and they are certainly capable of smoking for up to perhaps a half hour. Regarding the comments about smoke oil getting "all over the engine" and "leaving a film everywhere". I disagree completely. Yes--if you spill it, it does run on the engine. It will eventually evaporate (over several weeks) and/or can be cleaned off with soap and water on a Q-tip swab. If you don't like the scent of the factory supplied smoke--they have about 15 other scents available, some of which (like "Christmas") are much better--but English's does not recommend the bacon and eggs scent.
To my knowledge the smoke is mostly mineral oil and is classified as "non-toxic". The volume of smoke produced can be enough to fill up a room with smoke, so we don't use it all the time.
There is no evidence of any film on my other rolling stock or anything else in the room from the MTH smoke fluid.
I recommend using a dropper to avoid spilling the fluid on engines and then having the shiny residue there for awhile till it (mostly) evaporates. Again--it can be removed with soap and water.
I prefer the LED lights and sound more than I like the smoke, but since the whole package of sound/lights/smoke absolutely captivates my children, I'm hoping it will be enough to keep their interest in the hobby. I like that MTH and others are making previously very expensive, or nearly unavailable, steam engines more readily available.
John
I do agree that MTH's smoke units look amazing compared to anything else in HO. I'm glad that you get enjoyment out of your engines.
I also agree that MTH locos for the most part have excellent slow speed performance and they run exceptionally well in silent mode (no squealing ever), the great thing about these locos is you never have to lube them, they come factory lubed and the manuals say you don't have to, at least for a long time after your purchase.
Other positives for me are the bright LEDs used for the headlight and back up light, and particularly their use of operational marker lights which can be turned on and off appropriately just like the prototype.
As for me, I will never buy DCS, but I'm glad you like your locos, thats all thats important.
I've seen different chemical analyses of smoke fluid on the Garden Railways forums. Some claim it is parafin based, others say it is nothing more than scented mineral oil. Either way, we do not allow smoke on our HO scale club layout for all of the reasons already given -- some people are allergic to it, it has a horrible smell, it leaves an oily film on everything, and it does not look the least bit realistic.
Even used to represent the smoke from a building on fire using the fan-driven smoke generator sold by Micro-Mark (catalog number 82602) it's too wispy to look realistic. Children like to push the button to make the building smoke during an open house, but other than those times it is never used.
Sorry, but I like MTH and BLI smoke. I find the effect of smoke puffs synchronized with the chuff rate very realistic. The smoke lasts about twenty minutes to the filling and has not created any problems on my layout. I use coal scented smoke fluid in my coal burning engines and the standard smoke fluid in my oil burning engines. The MTH and BLI smoke is nothing like the smoke from the old Seuthe smoke generators. It is not wispy, although it is not as thick as prototype exhaust, especially in winter, but I find it very convincing.
onequiknova I'm anti smoke for all the reasons already listed, but the engine in that video looks impressive. Of coarse you'd need an exhaust system in your layout room in order to run it for an extended lenght of time. My Dad and I used to have an HO scale modular layout we would take to shows and every year we'd get stuck next to one of the O27 layouts. Having to smell that crap belching out of multiple steam engines for 10 hours straight will make anybody hate the stuff. John.
My Dad and I used to have an HO scale modular layout we would take to shows and every year we'd get stuck next to one of the O27 layouts. Having to smell that crap belching out of multiple steam engines for 10 hours straight will make anybody hate the stuff.
John.
Could not agree more!
I have seen this loco in operation and I must say, it was even more impressive than in this video. I watched it maybe for 10 minutes and then had to leave the hall to get a good breathe of fresh air. My eyes started to burn and I had a dry throat and mouth. The smell was OK - it was a mix called "Lokduft", that´s German for "Loco Scent".
Everybody keeps telling us, that this stuff is no hazmat - I doubt it!
CNJ831 All the preceeding anti-smoke posts are absolutely correct in their points about how unrealistic smoke is in HO models and has been considered so all the way back at least into the 1950's, when no serious HO hobbyist would give a smoke-equipped loco a second look. However, I think the reason for seeing smoke's strong re-appearance in HO today is a reflection of the sort of folks that have come into the hobby in the past dozen, or so, years. Many of them are older individuals that had Lionel, or Flyer, trains as kids but never transitioned to the scale hobby in adulthood. To them, model trains are still supposed to go "choo choo", whistle, and smoke. You saw a reflection of this in BLI's introduction of a mooing cattle car recently, as well as Rapido's steam generator car. Look for more gimicky and Lionel-like stuff (remember the Lionel camera loco?) to be making an (re)appearance as the line between toy trains and the hobby of adult scale model railroading continues to blur...especially with MTH now in the mix. CNJ831
All the preceeding anti-smoke posts are absolutely correct in their points about how unrealistic smoke is in HO models and has been considered so all the way back at least into the 1950's, when no serious HO hobbyist would give a smoke-equipped loco a second look.
However, I think the reason for seeing smoke's strong re-appearance in HO today is a reflection of the sort of folks that have come into the hobby in the past dozen, or so, years. Many of them are older individuals that had Lionel, or Flyer, trains as kids but never transitioned to the scale hobby in adulthood. To them, model trains are still supposed to go "choo choo", whistle, and smoke. You saw a reflection of this in BLI's introduction of a mooing cattle car recently, as well as Rapido's steam generator car. Look for more gimicky and Lionel-like stuff (remember the Lionel camera loco?) to be making an (re)appearance as the line between toy trains and the hobby of adult scale model railroading continues to blur...especially with MTH now in the mix.
CNJ831
John,My eyes still light up from all of the automation I see on the 3 rail display layouts at some train shows...Its not a bad thing just memories of a simpler bygone era where innocent fun rule the hobby..
Would I want this on my ISLs? Nope..I wouldn't mind working lights in my yard for simulated night operation or working crossing gates..
If modeler Joe or Jane wants lionel type automation who am I to judge him/her in their pursuit of model railroading since I do well to please myself?
We have to draw a line some where between our modeling goals versus another's goal since there's room for all without damage to the hobby or damaging your or my way of modeling..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
All the preceeding anti-smoke posts are absolutely correct in their points about how unrealistic, and sometimes messy, smoke is in HO models and has been considered so all the way back at least into the 1950's, when no serious HO hobbyist would give a smoke-equipped loco a second look.
The smoke isn't realistic, doesn't smell good and settles in an oily film on everything it touches and makes the rails slick, causing the loco(s) to lose traction.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
twhiteAnd you've got to remember that in a lot of photos and movies of actual steam locos in service--back when Steam was King--that smoke was pre-arranged for the photographer because it added a lot of drama to the photo or movie. A lot of railroads--especially out here in the west where they burned oil as fuel--preferred to run their steamers with as clean a stack as possible.
In additon to agreeing with all the reasons stated so far for smoke being a "NO", I would like to follow up on the prototype reason some.
Even in the east, where coal was king, fireman were taught to fire locos properly and minimize smoke. Many tenders had reminders painted on the cab side saying "smoke wastes fuel" or similar reminders to avoid excess smoke.
Sure, there are times in the operation of a steam loco when both the steam and smoke exhaust are both heavy and spectacular, but a lack of visible smoke was a sign of a good fireman.
Observation - over the years, HO manufacturers who tried to offer "Lionel like" toy features on thier models have all gone out of business or stopped offering those features, except obviously the most recent attempts by BLI and MTH. Seems to me the market has spoken, and continues to speak.
Sheldon
I have to agree with what everyone here has said. As a former MTH fan, I will say that their smoke units are far better than seuthe, but for that price and for the cons of having smoke, its just not worth it. Depends on which engine, but their HO K4 smelled BAD, the puffing looked somewhat realistic, but you wouldn't believe the residue all over the boiler either. Goes throughout the entire house making everyone's eyes water, I kid you not. Besides the ill effects on breathing in humans, just think of what pets have to endure. No thanks.
The Class J smells better by HO smoke standards, but still its a real hassle to clean up, and 9 out of 10 people that see it run ask me to turn off the smoke, they start coughing. Sometimes after only a few minutes of running, I have to get out the dish detergent and rag and wipe away all the residue on the boiler, this happens all the time. Sounds like fun, huh?
In my opinion, the only 'fake' smoke in trains that looks good are the ones that take place in a carefully controlled setting. Smoking works for Thomas the Tank engine for several reasons, the show uses larger scale trains (2 rail O scale I believe), the engines are especially designed for smoke as Ulrich pointed out in that link, and most importantly, there is proper ventillation of the set, and keep in mind, all of this is a stunt for filming, getting that right shot or scene. Nobody runs these things round and round on some layout at their home.
As far as real water for rivers goes, that brings back some nostalgia of looking at Lionel Catalogues, didn't know that people still did that, might look cool I guess, but sounds extremely dangerous with all of the electrical. I'll pass on that.
Sir Madog Smokin´ steamers in HO scale - a clear no from my side. As long as they can´t do this, it is a waste of money!
Smokin´ steamers in HO scale - a clear no from my side. As long as they can´t do this, it is a waste of money!
I'm anti smoke for all the reasons already listed, but the engine in that video looks impressive. Of coarse you'd need an exhaust system in your layout room in order to run it for an extended lenght of time.
You should all know my position (I've said it lots): smoke is a negative detail because it destroys one's effort toward realism. I say "don't spend effort and money on things that makes your models look more like toys."
JE:
For my money, there are two things that don't scale down well into the smaller gauges, and that's smoke and water.
I've seen videos of some of the newer 'smokers' by BLI and MTH, and for me, they don't make it. It still looks like someone stuck a lit cigarette down the funnel of the stack--even if that lit cigarette is burping in conjunction with the cylinder chuffs. It's still wisps. Okay, maybe THICKER wisps than the old smoking mechanisms, but still wisps. Real smoke billows out of the stack, scale smoke kind of 'burps' in little weak puffs. At least that's the way I see it.
And you've got to remember that in a lot of photos and movies of actual steam locos in service--back when Steam was King--that smoke was pre-arranged for the photographer because it added a lot of drama to the photo or movie. A lot of railroads--especially out here in the west where they burned oil as fuel--preferred to run their steamers with as clean a stack as possible.
I remember watching SP steamers out here when I was a kid, and about the only time you saw a lot of smoke coming out of them was when the weather was about 30 degrees or so and it was condensation.
I've also heard that smoking steamers means more track cleaning because of the residue.
I'm 99% steam on my MR, none of them smoke. But then, I don't have real water in my model rivers, either.
Just my opinion, understand. Others will probably disagree.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
This was a longer reply, but the system ate it!
On-board smoke, even the best:
Given that, I have declined the smoke option. (I feel the same way about on-board sound in HO.)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with smokeless, silent steam locomotives)
Smoking steam locos is nothing new. It has been around for a long time but seemed to have run out of favor, at least in the HO world that I live in. I had one old smoking loco on my old layout. A Botchman Consolidation with a heating element in the smoke stack. You'd put a few drops of a smoking liquid into the smokestack and the heating element would produce some wispy smoke that smelled awful and didn't remotely resemble the belching steam and coal smoke real steam locomotives produced. Now I see steam seeming to be making a comeback in some high end offerings. My question is this. Is it any better this time around. Does it produce a more realistic type smoke or more of the same?