BRAKIE 15" curves in N Scale is a very nice curve and a N Scale Big Boy doesn't look to shabby on those curves...For such a large engine I would want nothing less then 18" curves. In HO I would want nothing less then 36" for a big boy since large locomotives has a tenancy to look better on larger curves.
15" curves in N Scale is a very nice curve and a N Scale Big Boy doesn't look to shabby on those curves...For such a large engine I would want nothing less then 18" curves.
In HO I would want nothing less then 36" for a big boy since large locomotives has a tenancy to look better on larger curves.
In N scale a 15" radius curve does not look too sharp, but that's the thing. Will it work with a Big Boy? I think ---megh----don't think so-----me? Rather go the 20" there------
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Sheldon wrote:Big Boys on 15" radius is not acceptable to me. Heck, 80' passenger cars on 36" is BARELY acceptable to me.
----------------------------------------
Agree.
However..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Not everyone has the space for "proper" curves on their personal layout. There are the fortunate ones that do, but I'm ok with larger cars & loco's being able to negotiate tighter curves if necessary.
So I guess we should be able to say that one person's perception of quality in a product & they way they model them is different than someone elses & leave it at that?
Just my 2 cents worth
Gordon
Brought to you by the letters C.P.R. as well as D&H!
K1a - all the way
I used to have several Atlas locos and I loved them. But now my roster calls for early EMD Geeps that Atlas doesn't make to my knowledge, so my fleet is almost all older P2K units...pretty smooth running, well detailed, and best of all, when you know where to get them, inexpensive!
As for the Toy V.S. Model issue: Yes I strive to make my toys/models look and operate like the real thing, and yes I call them models when "outsiders" ask, but if you insist on calling them toys, my thoughts are: Toys are fun, trains are fun...same thing, right?
1948PRRNow if I could get you to compliment me for thanking you for supporting me for defending...............
Consider yourself so complimented. I think you would have enjoyed my disertation on how good my American cars have been over the last 15 or more years - sorry it disappeared so quickly.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL 1948PRRMy addendum/epilog defending the American automobile industry seems to have been edited out by a moderator, but the original reference on page one which suggests inferior quality remains......fair? If my rebutal is taboo,,,,, I was thinking the same thing after my support of your rebutal was also deleted... Sheldon
1948PRRMy addendum/epilog defending the American automobile industry seems to have been edited out by a moderator, but the original reference on page one which suggests inferior quality remains......fair? If my rebutal is taboo,,,,,
I was thinking the same thing after my support of your rebutal was also deleted...
I thank you for your support of my rebuttal in defence.
I have nothing against global trade or production, unless it involves human rights issues, otherwise I wouldn't be buying these outsourced Asian and European railroad models.
I just feel the american Auto business is capable of and is currently producing a product that is on par with the best the world has to offer, and I am tired of others assuming foreign cars are always superior.
Now if I could get you to compliment me for thanking you for supporting me for defending...............
They seem to make engine to handle smaller raidus because most people are living in smaller houses. Which mean smaller layouts then leads to smaller radius.
That's patently false. http://www.infoplease.com/askeds/us-home-size.html
http://realestate.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=13107733
Snippet from the latter:
"The average American home swelled from 983 square feet in 1950 to 2,349 square feet in 2004 -- a 140% increase in size."
My wife and I currently live in an 1100 sq ft house, but it's only that big because the garage was converted to a family room. As built, the house is about 950 sq. ft. It was built in 1950.
Andre
GTX765Also what is the comparison between the quality of fun compared to the quality of the product?
This could be another one of those subjective calls again. My idea of fun could be completely different from your idea of fun. And quality? OY----how would you measure that?
GTX765Bachmann plasticville; why?
If someone is having fun with it then--------
As for the issue around "toyishness" the idea for me is to have a Big Boy going with a set of 85' passenger cars around a 18" radii curve. Sorry. My eyes would hurt-----
My idea of fun is to have a consist of 3 ATLAS RS2's with about 30 hoppers going along 'Sherbrooke Curve' ----which is a 30" radius
The point I've been trying to get across is, yes, of course, there are some things that shouldn't have to negotiate curves less than 22" radius or that don't look so good on that radius--but the vast majority of buyers (not the people on the internet train forums, who represent only a small but relatively vocal minority) just are unable to go that much larger.
With good trackwork, easements, etc., full length passenger cars and big steam can easily negotiate Armstrong's "Conventional Curves" of about 26 to 28 inch radius. It is not necessary to go all the way up to 36" or 42" radius to have good operation (though that might be the "ideal").
So far as "quality" is perceived--while through the years many folks (including their own employees) have urged Bowser to go with more fine detail on some of their freight cars, etc., there has been a certain segment of the hobby that is unwilling to pay the higher fees for such finely detailed rolling stock and/or does not want to experience the durability issues related to some finely detailed rolling stock. For that reason certain manufacturers have decided to continue to appeal to that market.
ExactRail got shredded on another forum for doing a not very exacting short corrugated side mill gondola with nicely molded on grab irons in paint schemes that were incorrect, but very affordable. They were criticized quite heavily for that gondola on the internet...and guess what--they are flying off the store shelves.
The somewhat more silent majority out there votes with their wallets.
UP 4-12-2 Regarding the "toy train" comments: Unless one is operating your "modern" US-style mainlines with radii of 6.5 feet, you are cheating and operating in a "toy train" environment. Prototype track design standards call for current (and just about all recent) mainline construction to be on curves flatter than about 10 degrees--572.965 feet, or about 6.5 feet in HO. So by that standard they are ALL just toy trains. John (civil engineer)
Regarding the "toy train" comments:
Unless one is operating your "modern" US-style mainlines with radii of 6.5 feet, you are cheating and operating in a "toy train" environment.
Prototype track design standards call for current (and just about all recent) mainline construction to be on curves flatter than about 10 degrees--572.965 feet, or about 6.5 feet in HO.
So by that standard they are ALL just toy trains.
John
(civil engineer)
Well, even if you do have the room for 10 degree curves, to be realistic you'd have to limit your trains to about 25 scale MPH rounding them.
Now if you have room for 1 degree curves (5730 ft radius or about 66 ft in HO), you can power 'em up an let 'em rip. A full circle of track would be 6.82 miles or 414.69 ft in HO.
So yeah, let's all admit it now. We play with toy trains and the primary argument is at what point the compromises become too much for us as individuals to bear. Me, I tend towards Sheldon's view.
Crandell:
I pretty much am in your camp as to degree of 'toys'. I teach at a private boy's high school and I've found out one thing during my time there:
Girls give up their Barbie Dolls at about age 11.
Boys give up their 'toys' on their deathbed--reluctantly!
I'm beginning to think that it's 'hard-wired' into our genetic makeup.
As for myself: If the overhang on my Yellowstone knocks over an adjacent set of telephone poles on a curve, then I've gotten too 'toylike'. If it doesn't, then I'm still Model Railroading, LOL!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Agreed, based on Crandell's definition of toys. But as I suggested earlier, we all have different ideas about what compromises are acceptable.
Big Boys on 15" radius is not acceptable to me. Heck, 80' passenger cars on 36" is BARELY acceptable to me.
I have never understood why some people want to make the distinction between their type of toy playing and someone else's. If it isn't the real non-entertainment McCoy earning real revenue and paying real bank deposits to salaried bodies, it's a toy. Even live scale steamers are toys, including the big ones that do generate some upkeep revenue for theme parks and such.
However, I do understand the term "more toy-like" as many of us use it. Tighter curves, three rails nested, poor fidelity and odd dimensions in scale and details....that's the way I would use that term. But my HO trains are still toys.
-Crandell
I submit the market is not so much catering to a small number of "toy train" collectors but is catering to what the manufacturer thinks they can sell (Overland Models Brian Marsh is a huge UP fan--always reflected in their offerings). While many Big Boy owners might indeed only own one (hey, those suckers aren't usually cheap), there are plenty of diesel era guys out there who think "if I'm going to have one and only one steam engine, it's going to be a Big Boy (or Allegheny or Y-6B, depending on one's region within the U.S.)"
For that reason, Big Boys, 2-6-6-4's, Y-6B's or other 2-8-8-2's, 2-6-6-6's, and those huge turbines will always sell. There will always be those folks who want one of the "biggest" or "most powerful" depending on how you choose to define it and their particular regional preferences. Yet not so many folks will want a Big Six B&O 2-10-2 (though I have lobbied for it on other forums).
Mid-size steam power specific to certain roads? Has usually been considered to be a higher "risk". For that reason, the manufacturers have usually left it alone.
It's interesting that this thread started as an analysis of on-board sound/electronics and slowly transitioned into a discussion of European made scale model toys. (If it is designed to run on toy train radii, it's a toy.) There seems to be a clash between the modelers who want to run in a manner that LOOKS like the prototype and the modelers who want to be able to run ANYTHING on a loop the size of a dining table.
Maybe I was extraordinarily lucky about my choice of prototype. In my little modeling world, a 2-8-2 is a BIG steam locomotive, and doesn't look out of place on 610mm radius curves. My only articulated (at this time) has a mechanism taken from a prototype that was engineered to take sharper real-world curves that I have it running on, by a matter of 40mm (model radius) or so. Sure, the overhang is ghastly. So, I imagine, was the prototype's, on the 68 degree curves it was designed for.
One factor is that I have never expected perfection out of the box - even my few RTR locomotives (JNR diesel-hydraulics) were carefully inspected and 'tweaked' as necessary before they entered service (and have been given regular maintenance ever since.) A second is that I am happy without any form of on-board electronics. Many of my locos still have their original open-frame motors (Including the Pittman DC71 in my Mantua 0-4-0T.)
So, what makes do I like, and what makes would I avoid?
US- based manufacturers.
My Japanese-built models came from a wide spectrum of manufacturers, from Tenshodo down to mom-and-pop storefronts with a few machine tools in the back room. Counting downward from the best:
(An incomplete list, off the top of my head.)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Here's what I run, and observations about quality and support.
Layout background is HO 15x19 around the walls transition era. Usually single operator but sometimes 2-3 operational since 2004. 24" curves with 1/4 in 16" easments. About 66% or my motive power is "on the table" at any given time. MRC PA for control. Listed in order of number of units owned. My most heavily used locos are a proto 0-6-0, a P2K S1, and a small fleet of BLI 2-8-2's kitbashed into 2-8-0's, although the Proto H10-44 is gaining favor. These are the yard switchers and local freight power. Through freights are BLI M1/I1 powered, or any of the following cab units. Typical train lengths are 6-8 cars for the locals and 12-16 cars for through freights. I have no grades, but am in the process of double-decking with a 2.2% helix.
BLI steam 13 units- I've persnally had very little issues with them. Each newer version performs better than the last. A couple had "overspray" on the drivers hindering electrical pickup, fixed with wire brush. Support and communication IMO is excellent. They will send you a part to fix yourself, and cary on an email or forum conversation. Weak point is early rev of chip. Early units so-so slow speed later units great. Final grade- -
P2K-P1K (Pre-Walthers) diesels 12 units- I've had surprisingly little difficulty with these as well, other than the cracked gear issues. Support and communication could be better IMO. Weak point is possible non-isolated motor and some questionable DCC sockets. Slow speed is very good. Final grade-
Proto Heritage Steam 6 units- I absolutely LOVE these No problems ever. Never needed support. Weak point is "drawbar" connection on switchers. Strong point is silky slow speed. 0-8-0 with traction tire pulled 89 cars on level track. Final Grade +
Athern Genesis F series 6 units- These are good, just wish they made the PRR version with antennas. Mine were DC, and I added ESU to first set. Those will come out and go into switchers, and be replaced by Tsunami. No support needed. Weak point is removing shell tends to break window glass. Motor is not as smooth as some others Final grade- +
BLI diesels 4 units- The E7s are great, no issues. the SW7, not so much. Decoder doesn't respond like I want it to. 1 E7 had light board issue, BLI sent me a part in less than 1 week after emailing them. Final grade-
Kato diesel 3 units*- I have an NW2 which I think sucks as far as the chassis goes. Believe it or not, I actually transplanted a P2K SW9 sound chasis into this shell. I also have a couple of Atlas RS-3 chassis with Kato drivetrains under a set of Shark shells. These are great. Final grade
ER/Model Power diesels 3 units- Both the ER and the "big can motor" sharks actually run very good. My rating- -
Walters/Proto diesels 2 units- I have the SW9/1200 and the H10-44. These stack up with the best IMO. SW9 needed to have a non-traction tire driver transplant. H10-44 is perfect. Final Grade-
IHC Steam 2 units- 2-6-0 ran great to my surprise. 2-8-0 not so much. IMO they look kind of cheesy. Final Grade-
PCM diesel 2 units- These are (were) outstanding. I will miss them-
Bachmann Spectrum steam 1 unit- I guess these are hit and miss. mine fried a decoder, then had to have the gear re-glued to the motor shaft. Now is OK. Final grade- -, would have been if I didn't actually fix it.
Athearn Genesis steam 1 unit- Mine was awful. Wheels kept shorting on switches. Ended up using for kit-bashing. Final grade- , probably should be .
Atlas Diesel 1 unit* (see Kato)- I wish Atlas made more products that I need. I have the RS-1. It is nice, but I wouldn't say it is clearly far superior to others like most on this forum. My Proto S1 with a Loksound actually runs better than this unit with the exact same decoder. No issues, though. Final Grade- -
Take them for what they are; personal opinions based on personal experience.
My addendum/epilog defending the American automobile industry seems to have been edited out by a moderator, but the original reference on page one which suggests inferior quality remains......fair? If my rebutal is taboo,,,,,
blownout cylinderAnd this is where we end up with issues. I find that I cannot get certain locomotives because the market is catering to a small sector of "toy train" collectors or RTR. I do find myself thinking ---mmm---some open market---no space for this'un
Barry, I agree and understand as we have discussed before, but, I wonder if there actually might be a great silent majority out there just waiting for some manufacturer to take a chance on more "non famous" prototypes.
I say this simply because of the success of the Bachmann Spectrum line which is largely little known, average, work a day, steam locos. Some which which had less copies built in real life than the Big Boy. Yet they have sold repeated production runs for a decade or more. Sure, some are the ever popular K4, etc, but many are not, yet they have likely sold hundreds of thousands over the last decade.
And, look at Proto2000 and the mass proliferation of simple basic stuff like GP7's and FA1's.
I have 8 Spectrum 2-8-0's and 9 Spectrum 4-8-2 Heavies, I wonder how many Big Boys the average big boy owner has? Of all the locos in my fleet, there are only a few I only have one copy of.
I buy most locos in twos or fours for double heading and to keep that prototypical family look to the ATLANTC CENTRAL fleet. Look at a picture of a steam era engine terminal, two, three, five or more of the same loco class lined up waiting for fuel, water and work. Not a hodge podge of stuff from all over the country.
I suspect I am actually a better investment for most manufacturers than a collector. They can make one piece I want and sell me half a case, not just one piece.
I was talking to our local shop owner just yesterday, a shop that sells mostly three rail and large scale. He was saying business is way down and he thinks the larger scale boom of a few years back is dead. He says his HO special order business is still good. Just supports what I have always said, modelers are steady customers in good times and bad, collectors go up and down with the economy.
Lets hope HO is not yet "ruled" by the collectors, it could be very bad for product choices.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And, I agree some are excelent models regardless of what curves they are designed for. But some are not - example: the PA1 - the swivel pilot just kills the whole thing, not to mention other details being oversized and out of proportion. You will never find anything like that on my layout. And, I must admit, I'll personally never pay a Marklin/Trix price when I can pay a Bachmann, BLI, or Proto2000 price. Sheldon
And, I agree some are excelent models regardless of what curves they are designed for. But some are not - example: the PA1 - the swivel pilot just kills the whole thing, not to mention other details being oversized and out of proportion.
You will never find anything like that on my layout. And, I must admit, I'll personally never pay a Marklin/Trix price when I can pay a Bachmann, BLI, or Proto2000 price.
Quite right, Sheldon, I never understood why Marklin chose to employ a technology of the 1950´s for this particular model. I also confirm your comment on the pricing of Marklin - I´d rather buy a BLI UP TTT as brass hybrid, which I get for less in Germany than a Marklin/Trix Big Boy, if I were modeling UP.
As for the list, I did not want to list all those Berkshires, Alleghenys, Triplexes a.s. which are unfortunately not that well known in Europe. Apparently UP has a better marketing?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'm not trying to make any product availability decisions for you or anyone. But by defult the market will, so on that note since I don't buy any UP prototype locomotive models I guess I'm not very good for your product availability. And your choices likely don't help bring to market the locos I want.
I'm not trying to make any product availability decisions for you or anyone. But by defult the market will, so on that note since I don't buy any UP prototype locomotive models I guess I'm not very good for your product availability.
And your choices likely don't help bring to market the locos I want.
And this is where we end up with issues. I find that I cannot get certain locomotives because the market is catering to a small sector of "toy train" collectors or RTR. I do find myself thinking ---mmm---some open market---no space for this'un
Now, I'm thinking the modelling/prototypical sector will have to become a small scale, almost niche related cottage industry on its own. In terms of numbers, the smaller locomotives may not sell nearly as much as the collector dominated large locomotives but then again---maybe the so called reward should be seen elsewhere--
UP 4-12-2 Well--I couldn't take more R/W from my basement to have 36" radius curves, or I would have. The wife didn't want the trains taking up the entire basement--so there are limitations and compromises that must be made. I also didn't envision ever seeing a 4-12-2 that would handle 26" radius and actually look ok (well, comparable to the bull moose 2-8-8-0's I have owned in the past). 26" radius curves with wider radius easements into them was the best compromise I could make. Few people have the room for 36" radius or 42" radius--and I don't want those people making my product availability decisions for me.
Well--I couldn't take more R/W from my basement to have 36" radius curves, or I would have. The wife didn't want the trains taking up the entire basement--so there are limitations and compromises that must be made.
I also didn't envision ever seeing a 4-12-2 that would handle 26" radius and actually look ok (well, comparable to the bull moose 2-8-8-0's I have owned in the past).
26" radius curves with wider radius easements into them was the best compromise I could make. Few people have the room for 36" radius or 42" radius--and I don't want those people making my product availability decisions for me.
And for years the compromise most modelers made was not to model a 4-12-2 if they didn't have room for large curves. There are lots of different ways to compromise. I have 36" radius but still choose not run 2-10-2's, 4-12-2's or even 4-8-4's with 80" drivers and 20'+ rigid wheel bases - that's my choice.
Large Scale? - Off my radar, in fact the sharp curves of large scale are one main reason I have no interest in it. To me the whole point of a larger scale would be more prototype fedelity, not less.
As far as German engineering--well it utterly destroyed LGB--they designed a fantastic, expensive 2-8-2 with a jointed mechanism and complicated gearboxes that was agreed by many in the hobby to be wonderful engineering (to go around ridiculous tight curves) but the durability of the gearboxes was terrible. That high priced 2-8-2 was the beginning of the end for them. It was followed by questionable quality/durability trainsets from China.
Both Aristocraft and USA Trains subsequently took LGB's market share with better, more durable product lines.
Sir MadogFor many a European model railroad enthusiast, it is simply the epitome of US steam - high up on the "me wants" list.
While I'm sure moste every "collector" in the US has a model of a Big Boy, I would venture most US "modelers" don't.
Sir MadogOther big steamers, like the UP 9000, the UP TTT´s, UP Challenger, SP´s Cab Forwards, or even PRR I class with long-haul tender,
I find it very interesting that of all the locos you listed here, only one is from and east cost railroad and none are from a midwest railroad. Just goes to show that the understanding of the US by Europeans is no better than the understanding of Europe by Americans.
The UP, SP, and PRR, are far from the end all and be all of American railroading. Even as late as the 1950's there were over 100 DIFFERENT MAJOR CLASS I railroad lines in the US. Railroads that had massive shops, built and modified their own steam locos, built their own equipment, had the major car/loco builders build their own unique designs (many just as good or better than those "famous" ones you listed) and hauled lots of people/freight and made lots of money. Just do a little research on the B&O, C&O, Wabash, Frisco, NYC, Southern, ACL, Nickel Plate, Reading, just to name a few.
While I know about all the locos you listed, I don't own models of any of them. And of a large circle of modeler friends, I doubt I could gather that whole list.
If you model the PRR, you likely have an I class, and none of those others. I live on the east coast, and modelers around here who model UP or SP are rare. Sure, there are lots of people who model areas different from where they live, but again, its a big counrty with a much more diverse railroad history.
Toy or model - Most of the Marklin/Trix products I have seen in person do look very good, no question. And my experiance working in a hobby shop that sold Marklin/Trix makes me well aware of their quality.
Many of us in the US have been trying to "undo" the 18" radius "standard" for decades and get manufacturers to use 22" or 24" radius in set to give beginners a better start. Again, my minimum radius is 36" and I'm thinking of increasing it on the next layout.
A Big Boy on a 14" curve looks somewhat awkward - to say the best!
But Marklin, and their DC affiliate Trix, mainly cater for their large European clientele. European layouts are usually much smaller and sharp curves are a must. Marklin would have been ill-advised to build the loco in such a way, that it is not able to negotiate those sharp curves. The Big Boy was an excellent seller - not only to collectors. For many a European model railroad enthusiast, it is simply the epitome of US steam - high up on the "me wants" list. The Marklin Big Boy is a well-engineered, well built and highly detailed loco, whose DC Trix counterpart with RP 25 wheels certainly looks good on any US layout with UP prototype.
Other big steamers, like the UP 9000, the UP TTT´s, UP Challenger, SP´s Cab Forwards, or even PRR I class with long-haul tender, are not that widely known in Europe and it is most unlikely that they will be ever manufactured by Marklin/Trix. If they would, they´d be able to negotiate that 14" radius - and, again, look strange doing that.
The ability to safely round sharp curves is, IMHO, not a quality aspect, but a marketing necessity. It does not necessarily stamp the loco as a "toy".
As US manufacturers/importers are not really catering for the European market, it is perfectly OK for them not to consider these sharp curves we have to live with in Europe. But I do not understand, why all those 6-axle Diesels often have a hard time to negotiate that 18" radius, which seems to be the HO scale "standard" minimum radius on US layouts.
I'm starting to think the "toy" factor trumps any argument that is shovelled its way. People are more into the aesthetic of the piece and all else is just mere distraction. I've seen people buying GS4's with the PRR and B&O on them. Can see that there is no way that these things could've worked there---still---"But it looks good"
Way back, when my hair had color and I didn't have drivers license, I read an article by a fellow whose name I have long forgotten. What this guy said (somewhat to his surprise) that there were people interested in model trains but didn't care one bit about prototype ones. I suppose there is a certain fascination with miniature mechanisms that isn't matched with an equal fascination with the full size ones. I don't understand it, but then there are a lot of things I don't understand, the desire to jump out of perfectly airworthy airplanes topping the list.
andrechapelonI just don't understand the desire to run behemoth engines on curves that approach the radius of street tranway curves.
I just put it to the "toy train" phenomenon. There are a lot of toy train enthusiasts out there who are only looking at the aesthetics------
But it looks good!!------a variation on---
"WEEEEE!!! Let's play!"
By the way: I never owned and never will own a steam loco with tender drive! All my Märklin steamers have their motor also in the loco, not the tender. I think tender drives are really $h!+
All your Maerklin engines are AC aren't they?
I don't know why you'd think tender drives are little better than ***. The Roco engines I have perform extremely well and run very quietly.
But I definetly know that if Märklin would ever produce a SP 4-10-2 or a T&P 2-10-4, they would produce it in a way that it could handle even 14 inch curves, even if they got a longer rigid wheelbase than a Big Boy which is articulated of course and therefore can handle curves probably easier than a 2-10-4/4-10-2.
I doubt it. German engineering is superb, but there are limits. Even if Maerklin succeeded succeeded. the locos would look horrible on such sharp curves. Some years ago, I had a Westside brass SP 4-10-2. It looked acceptable on a 30" curve and looked much better on a 36" curve.
I just don't understand the desire to run behemoth engines on curves that approach the radius of street tranway curves.