alco_fanSince so many of us posting to this thread don't seem to have a layout at all yet, I'd say _that_ is the detail we are missing!
Since so many of us posting to this thread don't seem to have a layout at all yet, I'd say _that_ is the detail we are missing!
Pardon me for being curious, but what made you come to this opinion?
As I read the posts associated with this look at railroad/environment details, I keep thinking about what it is that set John Allen apart as a modeller, or why George Sellios' modelling efforts are so very pleasing to look at. Seems to me these men, and others, have conquered the mingling of non-railroad details with the obvious details of the railroad itself. This is just a suggestion because it seems to work for me. When I get in a pensive mood, when I begin to look 'beyond the obvious', I take out articles taht deal with model railroads that appear to be totally complete. It does change my focus, and, I hope, my general skills.
I have an old model railroading buddy that always kept an eye loupe or magnifier in his pocket and when looking at a prototype or model photo he would always "really" look at the photo. Amazing how many neat things are there but generally, we don't see them. Turned the tables on him once by putting his name in some very small graffiti on a model outhouse wall. It was a fun moment for both of us when he whipped out his pocket magnifier and found it.
Chuck
Grand River & Monongah Railroad and subsidiary Monongah Railway
I didn't see anyone mention that the car behind the loco is not a tender.Also the yellow hydrant and its quick connect fitting is wrong for the era of the loco as is the siding on the engine house. I wish the prototype would get it right.BILL
Sir MadogIf details don´t show when viewed out of a 3´ distance, should we "oversize" them a little?
I have thought about this question, and my answer now is no. I understand that there is a range in quality and fidelity to scale across manufacturers of the teensiest details available, say the bolt heads at the end of tension rods that you would find on a Howe Truss, or on the posts supporting a water tower. The ones that came with my Kanamodel kit of the CPR style water tower were about 40-50% too big as I was looking them over, deciding whether to place them on the posts as the instructions indicated. For me, with a decent product completed to that point, my first such fine model, I didn't feel it was right to begin to compromise at that point just to show that I was a stickler for details. In fact, I reasoned, because of their gross oversize, it would serve to demonstrate an incongruity with that assumption.
We can get up close and personal with our layout items if we want, and when we run out of closeness, the camera can finish the job nicely. If an otherwise good product has bolts sticking out of wooden posts that scale out to 7" across.....no, I don't think I'll go ahead with that part of the package, thanks.
-Crandell
Here is some signs to help add detail to your scenes.
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/162879.aspx
I have had the pleasure of vising Howard Zane's Piermont division multiple times a highly detailed model railroad and every time there is something new to see. Not that he has changed anything per say even though he does that as well but it's just his artistic level of detail is so amazing that one can not take it all in at one time unless that is maybe if you spent an entire week in Howard's basement. I have also had the pleasure of visiting Ken McCorry's Conrail layout which is down right huge 5000 sq. ft. there a bouts a marvel in it's sheer size and detailed accuracy relating to the prototype but no where near the level of detail of Howard Zane's layout. To be fair though this is basically one man building a gigantic empire and we're not talking cardboard cut out buildings placed on top of a piece of plywood. He has some enormous kit bashed structures one of which are close to 100' (real feet not scale feet) long.There is so much to see that the more you look the more you see definitely applies to this layout as well and just when your thinking well this is strictly an operational railroad you turn down an isle and there is a detailed structure or scene that really grabs you and makes you want to study the details.
The two railroads differ in that one is built for operations and the other strictly for the builders enjoyment and more of an artistic release if you will. This is by no means detracting from either one there just both excellent examples of what you can do in the hobby. Details are subjective sort of thing in my O/P in that one can always go back and "super detail" a scene if he wishes. In the case of George Sellios probably the builder best known for his details weather you like his run down depressed look or not you have to admire the man's eye for detail. It's all the little subtle things you don't see until you really study the layout that really makes it pop.
I think all of us are highly impressed with the details that we see but often over look the one's we don't see, like perfection in track work, turnouts that function flawlessly, signal system that actually work and work correctly, complex multi cab DCC systems that all work without a single hitch just to name a few. Sometimes it's the details that we don't see that really make the railroad.
Guys,One research tool I found priceless is Bing map's Bird Eye View.
Notice how this yard is far from "perfect" like we see yards on layouts.
http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=n98bq389bj2w&scene=35148169&lvl=2&sty=b
To my mind one needs to capture the details that gives a true to life railroad look that so many(including the "experts") over look..Of course such details isn't easy to model since it can be over or under done.
Of course this type of modeling requires close attention to details that can be acquired by visiting or studying pictures of the prototype.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Great Western Rwy fan Also in the photo is an Orange Hayes bumper stop. And one man is holding a broom showing how important house cleaning is.
Also in the photo is an Orange Hayes bumper stop. And one man is holding a broom showing how important house cleaning is.
Ya got good eyes lad. But looking at the body language, I'll bet that's an arm rest, not a broom.
BATMAN Another thing I have noticed is Railroads are not good house keepers once the line gets away from the public eye. Ten miles into the wilderness there are broken everythings laying about. Lets dirty up shall we, or are you scared your wife will start coming in to tidy up
No, but as the proprietor of the Franklin & South Manchester can tell you, other modelers will tell you it's too dirty.
Now that is one of an interesting topic!
I have always wondered, how much detail we have to add to a layout, without the detail taking away the focus from the trains or making it "overdetailed" . Also, when does a lack of detail become too apparent?
I have yet to find the answer. But here are some of my observations.
The bigger the layout is, the less detail you need to add to "get by" - vice versa, a small layout, especially when viewed at near eye level, requires a lot more attention to detail.
Viewing distance and - height are a determining factor as well - the closer you can get your nose to the layout, the more detail it should have.
The bigger the scale is, the more small things you have to include, i.e. the lack of bird droppings on the roof of one of your structures won´t show in N scale, but in O scale you will notice the lack of it.
The more animated and non-animated "gimmicks" your layout shows, the more "toyish" it may appear. Just look at Miniatur Wunderland, although a fantastic job, it is absolutely "overanimated "for my taste! Pelle Soeborg´s Daneville & Donner RR, OTOH, shows such an amazing wealth of "subtle" detail, you hardly notice it, but it makes the whole look so real.
If details don´t show when viewed out of a 3´ distance, should we "oversize" them a little?
I doubt that there is a recipe around - I, for myself, give my layout the level of detail I feel comfortable with, considering my trembling hands and ailing eyesight.
Allegheny2-6-6-6 I think it come to a point where we have to draw the line, if you have a scene that is front and center and clearly visible to everyone other then yourself. then go all out if thats your bag, the little things like the pieces of paper on the ground, ...
I think it come to a point where we have to draw the line, if you have a scene that is front and center and clearly visible to everyone other then yourself. then go all out if thats your bag, the little things like the pieces of paper on the ground, ...
You make a valid point. Still, I think the secret of detail is to make it subtle. A loud clutter of detail can be "overmuch." Jim Vail's (long-time contributer to the Narrow Gauge & Shortline Gazette) HOn3 layout has it right. Even though the layout is operationally centered, there are many mini-scenes that don't draw immediate attention, but when one takes a moment to rest and observe, one is drawn "in." I could spend hours examining/admiring the layout. I hope to have another opportunity to operate trains on his layout as well as spend time "lookin' 'round.
Mark
Interesting, but the FIRST think I noticed was the yellow fire hydrant. Then I noticed the #69 that seemed out of place - it is on a locomotive on the next track over.
One night or shall I say early morning I was sitting in my work shop adding details to one of the bridges for the scene I am currently working on. I added bolt head castings to the bridge I am weathering wooden bridge ties, rusting the rails, adding rust effects to the bridges and then I say oh wait I have to weather the under side of the bridge ties. Then I wanted to Gibbs slap myself in the back of the head unless someone is holding a mirror on the end of a 3 foot stick there is no way anyone can possibly see the bottom of the bridge much less notice that the ties are not weather like the tops that no one will ever see.
I think it come to a point where we have to draw the line, if you have a scene that is front and center and clearly visible to everyone other then yourself. then go all out if thats your bag, the little things like the pieces of paper on the ground, the old rusty burn barrel on the side of a building with pieces of broken pallets strewn about, the people and what their doing and fixtures on the inside of a store on Main St. etc. all make the scene as far as I am concerned. I was told a long time ago and have read it many times that the scenery, structures etc. are all there to enhance the trains so not too much focus should be given to them as it only serves to direct the viewer atention away from the trains. I personally could not disagree with this more. I feel the details are models with in the entire model and only serve to make something good excellent.
Talk about a timely subject. I'm trying to get some extra detail work completed on my 4 foot Free-Mo module. I'm adding telepone poles made from doweling since most in the area had no crossarms. Also added the electrical boxes (photos didn't show an actual meter) tonight made with scrap styrene and wire for the conduit onto the scratchbuilt buiding. Now I'm looking to get the gas meter as I just noticed it in the photo as well. You're absolutely right about how the details make the difference!
Ricky
Hah! Yes! I painted some of the Power Transformers on my layout Gray while most are a semi-gloss Black.
Power poles have things like "No Parking" signs attached to them as well.
I've been on the lookout for small details to add to various scenes, my warehouse has wood pallets and cardboard boxes stacked outside of one the truck bay doors.
It's the small things that make a Model Railroad look lived in.
Mark Gosdin
Blue signs/blue flags are a neat thing to introduce into operations. NJ International has offered them ready-made for over a year, now. I picked up a couple of sets and we've been using them during operating sessions on a couple of layouts. It has afforded us an opportunity to introduce our newer crews to yet another element of prototypical operation.
They've also been useful for taking a track out of service to make switching an area more "interesting". We don't tend to do that often, however.
-Fritz Milhaupt, Publications Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.http://www.pmhistsoc.org
markpierce I think our focus is often too-much centered on locomotives, and not about the other stuff that makes a railroad.
I couldn't agree more!
It is a matter of personal choice whether to have immaculate trains in perfect scenery or to muddy things up a bit. I just find it fascinating to learn about all the different things that go into a scene. It's amazing the weird and wonderful stuff I've seen and learnt as a result of opening my eyes to look for stuff for my modelling.
For a start I discovered that there's a huge great lump of land to the west of the horizon where they run trains on the wrong side... and I'd been thinking that if you went too far you fell off the edge...
One way of gleaning much more from photos (in any source) is to have a notebook - or card file - ... Just taking the time with most photos to see something worth making a note of breaks the modern habit of turning the page to whatever instant image comes next. It's astounding what can be found.
People often make everything so uniform on a layout. Look at the transformers behind the loco. They are not all the same colour. Anyone have something like that on their layout?
Also you never see trash on those model sidewalks or streets. Not even around that newly painted trash can, that was carefully placed next to the perfect mailbox that's next to the phone pole that has never had a poster stapled to it.
It's funny but when I have done something like different colour transformers. My sister or someone else comes waltzing in and says "why are they different colours"? "That doesn't look very good". I have painted a phone booth I have, to look like one I saw in a photo. The real one had been hastily painted over many times to cover graffiti. My model had turned out perfectly, but I was accused of being a very sloppy painter.
One definitely starts noticing detail as they go about their day to day routine once they get into this hobby.
Mark has raised a good topic here. Show us your broken windows, ripped awnings, dented autos.
Another thing I have noticed is Railroads are not good house keepers once the line gets away from the public eye. Ten miles into the wilderness there are broken everythings laying about. Lets dirty up shall we, or are you scared your wife will start coming in to tidy up
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Was "relooking" at this photo I took of a derelict Mogul and eventually saw details not previously noticed such as the yellow fire hydrant, the yellow derail, and the blue "Stop -- men at work" sign (a short distance to the right were two speeders and two trailers, with men in/around them).
I think our focus is often too-much centered on locomotives, and not about the other stuff that makes a railroad.