A great site for steam era info and paint schemes for many railroads is the Rensselaer Railroad Heritage Website at http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/index.php. You must join for $8 a month ($5 if you use PayPal) to gain access to the wealth of info on their site. I joined for a month, downloaded a huge amount of very useful prototype info, and canceled my subscription. I may join again now that I know more of what I need and download some more for another month. It is well worth the money. For example, the B&O has 18 pages of paint scheme changes from 1897 to 1972 and dozens of actual photos of prototype cars that you can see and the month and year changes were made. So you can be really accurate if you wish to model a particular date or date range. They also have info on creating realistic rosters for steam era railroads.
Mark, seeing Jeff's link reminded me that I sent you a PM regarding that website and others. You'll find it by looking under "Inbox" in the "My Profile" section at the right of the screen.
Wayne
amrail17. Did IC use all Black paint for every car it owned besides Boxcars? Question: When did IC begin applying the "Mainline of Mid America" slogan on freight cars?
17. Did IC use all Black paint for every car it owned besides Boxcars?
Question: When did IC begin applying the "Mainline of Mid America" slogan on freight cars?
The Mainline of Mid America slogan was adopted in 1947. It was not applied to any composite cars, only steel cars had it applied.
Open top cars changed from black to red sometime around 1945 and they started painting them black again in about 1955. Both black and red open top cars would be correct for your time period. Most of the color photos I've seen from the 1940s show IC open top cars in a mineral red color.
A good place to find a lot of information on the steam era is the
http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/index.php
It's well worth the $5.00 a month to become a member.
HTH
Jeff
wjstix Sometimes there's confusion about what constitutes a "unit train". Generally it means a set of cars that are basically identical to each other and that are run together as a single unit without cars being switched in or out. In effect, the whole train is treated as one big car.
Sometimes there's confusion about what constitutes a "unit train". Generally it means a set of cars that are basically identical to each other and that are run together as a single unit without cars being switched in or out. In effect, the whole train is treated as one big car.
A unit train is a solid train traveling on a single waybill. It is billed as a unit.
One can run a single commodity train (such as a steam era coal train or grain train) without it being a "unit train". It can even look and act the same between the departure at origin to the arrival at destination. What happens before origin departure and after destination arrival can be very different and the paperwork certainly will be.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
My cutoff date is 1927, hence a great precentage of my freight equiptment has already had 15-20+ years of service and perhaps one rebuild under its belt, case in point my elders include a pair of pre 1900 SP reefers restricted to company ice service as were the prototypes by my late date. I have 143 Pacific Fruit Express reefers with build dates between 1906 and 1922, they were still performing yoeman service in 1927 abit with trip or two through the reconditioning shop, still others represent new construction, what ties them together is current paint, lettering and appliance standards regardless of age. Railroads and indvidule owner/shippers retained rolling stock for a much longer period of time back then as compared to today.
Dave
True unit trains didn't come around until about 25 years ago, with unit coal trains being among the first. The train would go thru around a loop of track to be loaded, then taken over the mainline to a destination where they would unloaded similarly and then the entire train would head back to get more coal. The same cars in the same order would make the same trip over and over again.
This is different from a solid train of reefers, stock cars, etc. where the train is assembled at a yard in city A, then run over the line to city B where the cars are separated out to go to their respective customers. Trains like that were common in the steam era, but weren't true "unit trains", since the cars weren't kept together as a single "unit".
Just another little bit of info.....
Unit trains in the '30s and '40s aren't out of the question, either.
Unit coal trains in my locale came from the N&W, C&O, and L&N, were transferred to the PRR in Columbus OH, and then moved with PRR power to Cleveland or Sandusky docks.
Unit trains of fuel oil tank cars during the war are also documented on film, as are express refer trains and some LCL (less than car load) and other mercandise trains. Oh, theres also livestock specils, as I'm sure the current MR series will explain soon.
You just need to make sure you have era appropriate cars in them. This is a great opportunity to model long coal trains or whatever, without actually modeling a mine or dock. They can operate as "pass throughs" to make the schedule more interesting (keep the wayfreight out of the way) and provide a taste of the modeled lines identity. Nothing says PRR like a string of loaded H21 hoppers grinding down the main at 35 MPH. Again I'm in 1948, so I need circle keystone heralds, not the large "plain" keystone from the 1950's.
BTW, if I'm not mistaken, your Sentinal herald B&O cars would rarely be seen on another road. I believe this holds true for NYC Pacemaker and PRR merchanise seervice as well as other LCL "named service" cars. IIRC, these cars would be clustered together in a block at the front of the train, much like refers, and most likely be in higher class freight train, NOT a wayfreight. LCL was competion for OTR truck freight, sometimes including truck delivery to the doorstep.
For the Boston and Maine, 1950 is five years before the McGinnis "bluebird" scheme arrived. B&M freight cars were boxcar red mostly with the Minuteman herald in white. At least all the photo's in Sweetland and Horsley show a herald on boxcar red B&M cars.
BAR was also in boxcar red for 1950. The red white and blue State of Maine cars don't come till well after 1950. Again, all the photos show the white shield shaped BAR herald.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Wayne,
Your very kind to have taken the time to answer my many questions.Since creating this posting, I have come to realize the huge undertaking I was requesting. I hadn't realized that I was asking so very much from people. I do understand now that the info I'm wanting is much more complex than looking up things in a dictionary.My apologies to all.
Forgive my stern needs for accuracy. It really bothers me to see steam era cars being pulled by modern diesels and steam locomotives lugging unit coal trains.
I've loved trains since birth (47 years ago), and have a tremendous amount of knowledge in general about them.
However, to be honest, I was never too concerned about the accuracy of any frieght cars past 1960. When I got the fever to model the steam era a few months ago, I have found it extremely hard to get accurate info on frieght cars. Seems dates were mostly in general not specific. The last thing I want is a car on my layout that doesn't fit my era. It bothers me. A flaw in my personality I suppose.
I Thank you again my friend and to all who have taken the time to respond.
Mark (amrail / osteamnut)Thanks again!!
mobilman44Hi! Your questions are wayyyy too many, and frankly are "trivia" that could / should be answered by the various railroad special interest groups. IF you are trying to get the "correct" cars for your time period, all you need to do is find a subject car, and check the build date or better put, the most recent "rebuild" date on the car. That way you will know if that paint scheme existed at the last date on the side of the car. This is not a 100% perfect rationale, but comes pretty close to it. I urge you to check out some of the various books about the railroads you are interested in, and also join their special interest groups. And, narrow down your RR of interest to a couple, for your scope just too much. I would assume that you want to build a layout, and being concerned about car lettering is not something that you should worry about now. Again, the build dates on the car sides will tell you if you are looking at the right time period. ENJOY, Mobilman44
Hi!
Your questions are wayyyy too many, and frankly are "trivia" that could / should be answered by the various railroad special interest groups.
IF you are trying to get the "correct" cars for your time period, all you need to do is find a subject car, and check the build date or better put, the most recent "rebuild" date on the car. That way you will know if that paint scheme existed at the last date on the side of the car. This is not a 100% perfect rationale, but comes pretty close to it.
I urge you to check out some of the various books about the railroads you are interested in, and also join their special interest groups. And, narrow down your RR of interest to a couple, for your scope just too much.
I would assume that you want to build a layout, and being concerned about car lettering is not something that you should worry about now. Again, the build dates on the car sides will tell you if you are looking at the right time period.
ENJOY,
Mobilman44
Actually, there are lots of model railroad cars available that are incorrectly lettered, although the situation is gradually improving. An example of such a car would be one with a BLT. date of 11-38, and the notation, next to the dimensional data, of "NEW", followed by 11-38, but with the car sporting a paint scheme first applied in 1949. For a boxcar, that "NEW" would be on this car only for about 30 months, or until about May of 1940, at which time it would be re-weighed (NEW refers only to the weights indicated by LD.LMT.- load limit, and LT.WT. - light or empty weight), and re-stencilled with a station symbol, representing the place where the re-weighing was done, and the date that the work was performed. Even if such stencilling were correct, the car might still have an incorrect lettering scheme and/or paint job. For this example to be correct (and again, it would only be for a limited time span) the BLT date would remain the same, and the re-weigh data would be dated some time after the date when the car was painted in its present version.
Few cars ever got a re-build date: to be truly considered re-built, a car was required to have either a new underframe or have the original one substantially altered, in which case it usually received a new BLT. date. Cars could receive new ends, new sides, new roofs, new hardware, improved brake gear and/or trucks and the railroad could tout the cars as "re-built", but for accounting purposes, such a car was merely "refurbished". A car in the era of which the OP is asking had a life-span, from its BLT date, of 40 years in interchange service. It could continue in non-interchange service as long as the owning road wished, however. Since a re-built car received a new BLT date, the 40 year service would be counted from that date, not the original BLT date.
In addition to books, as suggested by Mobilman44, another source of info is the Essential Freight Cars series, by Ted Culotta in RMC. He's modelling 1948, and covers specific cars with both prototype and model photos and information (and some truly outstanding modelling).
I think that it's great that you're concerned with fidelity to prototype, Mark, but, as you can see, it will require some effort to be absolutely correct. I purposely set my layout in "the late '30s", giving me some leeway as to what was okay to run. However, I also run some cars that didn't appear until the '40s or even '50s - it may bother some, but I'm not one of 'em. I enjoy the research aspect of the hobby, but not so much that I'll let it prevent me from having an operating layout - hopefully, it'll "look right" even if it's not 100% correct.
amrailUp until the late 1930's, most cars were lettered only. Most, if not all, had no logos or slogans. This changed during the 1940's. Logos began to appear. Some slogans and streamliner advertising was stenciled on.
Up until the late 1930's, most cars were lettered only. Most, if not all, had no logos or slogans.
This changed during the 1940's. Logos began to appear. Some slogans and streamliner advertising was stenciled on.
B&O was logoless until to mid 1940's
amrail5. Question: When did the B&O begin using their large billboard initials on boxcars and other freight? Question: When did the B&O begin applying their Sentinel Service paint scheme on boxcars and other freight?
LINK will answer both above, and reinforce the first answer.
"Billboard" railcars were privately owned.
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
As I mentioned in another post, Branchline kits almost always state the specific date a particular paint scheme was applied to the model they are offering. Most are offered in an "as delivered" scheme, and a later repaint scheme. That would be a great place to start for some of the common prototype cars such as the 1937 AAR boxcar.
I know you said you weren't interested in acquiring more books, but that is honestly the best way, although not completely without error.
While my interest is primarily PRR, I am also reasonably concerned about a modicum of fidelity on those foriegn road cars that coexist on my layout.. To that end, I also own "color guide" style books on those roads that would have eiter had a lot of cars in general (especially in the locale I've selected) such as NYC and B&O, as well as those roads that were "freindly", IE had either some PRR ownership or routing agreements, such as L&N, N&W and the like.
For me, this has turned into another enjoyable aspect of the hobby. Just a few of things I've learned are;
L&N didn't use the "Dixie Line" slogan until after the acqusition of NC&StL, because it was an NC&StL slogan. I model 1948, so my L&N cars say "The Old Reliable". Those were fun to find. Also no blue L&N boxcars.
I also learned that standardized covered hoppers were very late with regards to other types. There were standardized boxcars, open hoppers and gondolas in the 19 teens and tank cars in the 1920's but covered hoppers were nerly all railroad spcific builds until the mid 1950s, This means I get to find interesting one road only designs like the PRR H30 (think lionel) and the B&O "wagon top".
I've also started going back through my old copies of MR and RMC, and dog-earing the pages where a product review or modeling project explains which cars are correct for which roads during which times, and what paint schemes were appleid when.
Even with all this info, sometimes you still have to settle for "close enough", or as some say, a "stand-in".
As noted earlier, though it's true some railroads only used the RR name and/or reporting marks on cars in the teens-twenties, this was by no means an absolute rule. Many railroads used heralds (the more common RR term for a "logo") and other lettering to cover their house cars, as did the companies that leased cars from the railroads or from other leasing companies. For example, Santa Fe's "cross" herald was used on cars at least as far back as 1902, Great Northern's circular "See America First" goat herald goes back to about 1922, and an early version of the rectangular "Burlington Route" herald was used in the 1880's-90's.
After private-leased Billboard reefers were restricted from general interchange service in the thirties, lettering did become simpler, but as someone mentioned, the railroads began to pick up the slack and use their boxcars and reefers to advertise their top passenger trains and services..."Way of the Zephyrs", "Southern Serves The South", "Route of the Chief" etc.
A good source for information about lettering styles from 1880-1940 is the Clover House catalogue. Other decal catalogues offer info on when the lettering styles were in use, though not all do. For a small expense you can get a lot of information. If you can find one at a flea market or online, Walther's PLD 1 book would be a good source of info for a few dollars. It's their first decal catalogue, issued in 1942 but reprinted at least into the 1980's. Any car in there should be good for your pre-1950 era.
BTW "Billboard reefers" were cars that the company leasing the cars would decorate with large eye-catching lettering for their company - like a billboard advertisement. Some folks think that the RR sold the advertising space to the company, but it's not the case. The RR had leased the car to the shipper, and the shipper the car was leased to added their name and other decoration to it.
Thanks to:
selector
oldline1
Texas Zepher
Paul3
sparkjay31
and pcarrell.
Special Thanks to doctorwayne for his time and graciousness.
Any other advice or info is much appreciated.
If a picture is worth a thousand words, maybe these sites will help. Most of the pics are pretty good quality, and a lot of them are dated.
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/
http://www.shorpy.com/image/tid/12
Paul3Well, I can help with one detail. A RR logo on a boxcar was starting to become popular around 1900. The New Haven was using their "script" logo on freight cars by 1902 (page 541, "New Haven Power" by Jack Swanberg). I just went and looked through my copy of "The American Railroad Freight Car" by John H. White, and there were several examples of RR logos on boxcars in the 1890's-1900's for the SP, Mobile & Ohio, Big 4, etc. When this became more common than boxcars that were simply lettered, that I can't say. But logo'd boxcars were not as rare as one might think in the 1930's. In fact, by the 1940's, logo'd boxcars were rather common. I've seen several WWII flicks on RR's, and they show strings of boxcars going by with logos. The NH bought some 6000 40' steel boxcars during WWII, and all were delivered with their script logo. Paul A. Cutler III
Well, I can help with one detail. A RR logo on a boxcar was starting to become popular around 1900.
The New Haven was using their "script" logo on freight cars by 1902 (page 541, "New Haven Power" by Jack Swanberg). I just went and looked through my copy of "The American Railroad Freight Car" by John H. White, and there were several examples of RR logos on boxcars in the 1890's-1900's for the SP, Mobile & Ohio, Big 4, etc. When this became more common than boxcars that were simply lettered, that I can't say. But logo'd boxcars were not as rare as one might think in the 1930's. In fact, by the 1940's, logo'd boxcars were rather common. I've seen several WWII flicks on RR's, and they show strings of boxcars going by with logos. The NH bought some 6000 40' steel boxcars during WWII, and all were delivered with their script logo.
Paul A. Cutler III
There are historical societies for most, if not all, of the almost 20 roads in which you are interested. It would be pretty expensive to join all of them, but you might want to select a couple of the most pertinent ones. For the others, you could try sending them your question, either via e-mail or in an actual letter (be sure to include a SSAE) keeping in mind that most of the members of such societies are volunteers. You may or may not get a response.
While I am not an expert on any of the roads you mention (nor any others, except those which I freelance), I will pass along the following information, taken from the C-D-S lettering catalogue. Note that the information is supposedly well-researched, but that I cannot verify it. Perhaps others will expand on it. For many roads, older-style lettering continued to be in use after new versions were introduced, often for many years.
Sorry that I can't provide more info, but this should at least get you started. For anyone else, please feel free to add-to or correct any of what I've provided: I'm always eager to learn more.
amrailLet me give you a little background of what I do know. Up until the late 1930's, most cars were lettered only. Most, if not all, had no logos or slogans.
Check out this thread and the photo from 1905. I would guess that at least 1/3 of the cars have a logo or slogan. Especially note the bill-board reefers in lower right. http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/162942/1794690.aspx#1794690Also note the references in the thread for photos of "older" stuff.
Wow!!! I think you set a new record for the longest question ever posted here! LOL
I appreciate you wanting to maintain authenticity on your layout with your equipment. It's hard to do that as there are so many items that fall out of the range one can select. I try for 1950 but I can't help but run some cars I love that came after that year. The truth is that the majority of modelers probably wouldn't recognize that a certain paint scheme or style of lettering or logo came after 1950 or didn't actually belong on your favorite 40' boxcar. Within reason you should be able to carry off most things. A Conrail or BNSF hopper obviously is out of place but who's to know if the boxcar with 9" lettering is correct vs 12" lettering?
Your many questions could probably be better answered by the various yahoo web groups for the railroads you are curious about as well as looking into the many railroad historical societies. The NMRA website has a list of a lot of these societies. A search on the yahoo site should get you hooked up with most of their groups.
Happy hunting!
Roger Huber
I hope you will forgive my response, but I really and sincerely mean this: you present a clear case for the usual advice given to new people from old-timers, and that is to narrow your interests so that you aren't generating so many questions. You indicate, in your post above, a too-broad approach to what I sense is an intense interest in modelling details, almost trivia, that, if it is to make you happy in the hobby, should be constrained to one single solitary railroad. As you phrased your question, you are going to take the rest of your life detailing rail cars from three or four different roads. Where will you find the time to do that for engines, for the country-side modelling in the roads you mention? Which small section will you model this accurately so that it conforms to all of the roads you mention, with their infinitely varied and numerous sections from which you could chose?
You need to step back, figure out what precisely your endstate is to be, and then compile a list of 'deliverables' to use as a guide for your work for the next several years. I think that you have otherwise only served to confound yourself. You will be mired in trivial things that most of us would not notice unless they were pointed out by someone with an encyclopedic knowledge of any of those roads.
Just my
-Crandell
Some fellow posters are giving me good ideas.
My friends, I do appreciate your input. I do need your help to accomplish my goals so keep the ideas coming please!! However, I'm not wanting to purchase any more printed materials than I already have. It's been very expensive and has led to little bits of info here and there but has most times created more questions than I already had before I got the materials.
I'm writing you today because it's my belief most railfans are happy to share what they know about the hobby. Maybe if we all pitched together we could solve many mysteries we all have questions about. Novel idea but we all love railroads, so, why not try.
Let me give you a little background of what I do know.
Wabash always used Block "Billboard" lettering. Some roads followed suit after the 1940's but when? I certainly do not want any rolling stock on my layout that existed after January 1, 1950.
Again, the window of time I'm wanting to model is 1938 to 1950. Nothing that existed after January 1, 1950 can be represented. I want as accurate of a display as possible.
Do you have a picture you'd share with me of a freight yard of cars that was taken between the years 1938 and December 1949? Do you know of a person who is an expert of railroad history in the 1940's that would share some time with me online or on the phone? Do you know of a resource online that can solve any mysteries for me?
Let me give you some examples of what is causing my dilemmas:
1. When did the D&H begin using there round and or shield logo on boxcars and other freight? What few pics I've seen from this time frame show the script lettering only. 2. When did the ACL begin applying script lettering and catch phrase on boxcars and other freight?
3.When did the Ann Arbor begin using there flag logo and large lettering on boxcars and other freight? What few pics I've seen from this time frame show lettering only. 4. What lettering and or logos did DT&I use on boxcars and other freight during this time period?
5. Question: When did the B&O begin using their large billboard initials on boxcars and other freight? Question: When did the B&O begin applying their Sentinel Service paint scheme on boxcars and other freight? 6. Question: What lettering and or logos did BAR use on boxcars and other freight during this time period?
7. Question: What lettering and or logos did B&M use on boxcars and other freight during this time period? 8. Question: What lettering and or logos did CofG use on boxcars and other freight during this time period?
9. What lettering and or logos did Cof NJ use on boxcars and other freight during this time period?
10. What lettering and or logos did C&EI use on boxcars and other freight during this time period?
Question: When did C&EI begin using large Block Initials on freight cars?
11. What lettering and or logos did C&IM use on boxcars and other freight during this time period?
Question: When did C&IM begin using large Block Initials on freight cars?
12. What lettering and or logos did Monon use on boxcars and other freight during this time period?
When did Monon switch to using large Block letters on boxcars and other freight cars?
Question: When did Monon start using "The Hoosier Line" Banner on boxcars and other freight cars?
13. What lettering and or logos did CGW use on boxcars and other freight during this time period?
14. When did the Milwaukee switch to the larger "The Milwaukee Road" slanted box logo herald on boxcars and other freight cars? Question: When did the Milwaukee begin using large block lettering on boxcars and other freight cars? 15. Question: What type of lettering and logos/heralds did DRGW use on boxcars and other freight cars in this time frame? (All standard gauge - not including narrow gauge) 16. What style or type of lettering/logos did GM&O use on boxcars and other freight cars in this time period?
This list is only half of the mysteries I've encountered so far. As you can see, many unanswered questions and no answers to be found.
Please see if you can find a resource or a friend that can shed some light on these puzzles. My Google searches and links to many sites have all come up empty so far. I'm asking (heck, begging!!!) as a fellow railfan and modeler for your assistance in this matter.
It is so important to me to be accurate. Not many buffs seem to care about accuracy as in previous times. To me it's a matter of displaying a piece of time that actually was, not might have been or close to what was. I want to be accurate. Sorry - don't mean to sound so dramatic!! LOL.
Thanks again in advance for your service.osteamnut.