Hello everybody,
I have a decision to make, but I simply don´t know what to choose. I want to model a nice HO scale Amtrak Phase III Superliner. As for the engine, I´ll go for the Kato F40PH, I think there´s no better model model of that engine out on the market. But when it comes to the Superliner passenger cars, I cannot decide between Kato and Walthers. The reasons why I should go for Kato are, that the Kato Superliners are better detailed and more heavier, and they have that nice opportunity of installing marker lights, which is not the case with Walthers. The reason why I should go for the Walthers Superliners is, that the cars have that nice plated metal finish, which gives them that nice stainless steel look Kato doesn´t have. So now we have more detail & marker lights VS. plated metal finish. What do you think? Should I go for Kato or for Walthers??
But then I also have 2 other questions:
1. Both, Kato and Walthers do not offer the "transition car", this means the Superliner sleeper where you have the high level end door and diaphragm only at one end, while the at the other end (connecting with the baggage cars at the front) there is a low or standard level end door and diaphragm. I searched for it but I couldn´t find it. But I need that car since it looks ugly when you see the high level end door and diaphragm being visible above the roofline of the baggage car behind the baggage car. Does anyone of you know which manufacturer produces this car at all?
2. Which corrugated/fluted baggage car do you recommend me for my Superliner train (I´m not talking about MHC´s)? By which manufacturer?
Regards
Daniel
You mean this car by Walthers?
http://www.modeltrainwarehouse.com/Walthers-HO-Scale-Superliner-II-TransitionSleeper-Car--Amtrak--Phase-IVb-Paint-Scheme_p_0-2400.html
EDIT: OK, that's in the phase IV scheme. Research indicates the only transition sleepers were Superliner II cars built by Bombardier in the mid 90's. Were they even painted in the phase III scheme? I don't know since I'm a transition era type.
Andre
Andre,
The Amtak Transistion Sleeper was only delivered in Phase IV and is currently in Phase IVb. Prior to their own Transistion sleepers, Amtrak used Hi-Level Step down coaches that they inherited from Santa Fe. These units originally had 68 seats and Amtrak modified them so their was crew dorm space on stair well end of the car.
Train station products makes a kit of this car. The only problem is that it is the original floorplan with the original seats. The modified units had different windows where the droms were located.
Hope this helps.
Will
De Luxe Should I go for Kato or for Walthers??
I have the Walthers in the Phase IVb. They have the grap iron already installed. The trucks need some work to make them roll better. If need to know how, don't hesitate to ask.
To answer question 1, read my other response in this thread. Walthers does make a Transistion sleeper, but it is based off of the one used later. You may have to use the one offered by Train Station Products. Just search Walthers for step up coach.
As for a baggage car, any brand will work. You may have detail it yourself and apply the appropriate decals.
Walthers makes a Transition Dorm Superliner. But being a Superliner II model, it only wore phase IV and up. Superliner II cars came out in 1994. Phase IV on Superliners debuted with the Superliner II's. Thus far, Superliner II cars have worn phase IV and IVb. Superliner I cars which date to the late 1970s have thus far worn phase II, III, IV, and IVb.
Anyway, since you are modeling the phase III era, you need a Hi-Level Transition Dorm. Intermountain will soon have one available. I don't have mine yet so I can't report on it. But it should be great since it is based on the Train Station Products excellent Santa Fe Hi-Level Step Up coach model.
For the baggage I would recommend the Walthers Budd phase III model. Long out of production, but if you are persistent you can find one on eBay. That's how I got mine. I keep bugging Walthers to reissue this baggage car in the new simulated stainless steel finish. I hope they someday make one.
Train Station Products offers a nice upgrade kit for the Walthers Amtrak baggage that I mentioned above. The upgrade kit converts the car into the typical Amtrak heritage baggage.
As for Kato v Walthers? Well a lot depends on what you want. Tight radius, go with Kato. Radius no issue, go with Walthers. Like accurate paint colors and simulated stainless steel? Go with Walthers. Kato's red and blue on the phase III are not very accurate. But then Kato has simulated rubber window gaskets and Walthers does not. Walthers has a better end yoke, although no HEP/MU ports. Kato has a wide open gap for the yoke which helps a lot for tight radius curves but doesn't look very good. But then Kato has molded on HEP/MU ports. So both have a lot going for them and then some things that are not so great. I could keep going, but it should really be your decision. Both are fine products. Oh and I should add that you can always add markers to the Walthers cars. More work when compared to Kato, but not impossible to do.
If it helps you out, for my mid 1980s era Southwest Chief, I chose Kato F40s and Walthers Superliners (new plated finish). The Kato F40 is a great model to choose. Smooth as silk. Although the red and blue colors are not as good as Walthers and does not match the Walthers Superliners, the Walthers F40 is junk when comparing the motor and running reliability to Kato.
OK now on to some links that should help out.
Intermountain Hi-Level Dorm
Walthers phase III baggage
Train Station Products Amtrak Baggage Upgrade Kit
If you would like to read a fairly in depth review with lots of photos I did for the new Walthers plated Superliners, below is a link. Note this review was for the IVb painted versions. I have since purchased a Southwest Chief trainset of phase III Walthers plated Superliners (all Superliner I models obviously) as well and I would review them exactly the same as the IVb Superliners I have. Very nice models all around.
New Walthers Superliner Review
Matt from Anaheim, CA and Bayfield, COClick Here for my model train photo website
Hey Matt,
thanks for your detailed answers. I think I made my decision. I will take the Kato cars. The Walthers cars are very nice too (especially the metal plated finish), but for me Kato is better, because they can handle thighter curves (I have 18 inch) better than Walthers and the marker lights are easier to install than on Walthers. Plus the colors will match better to the Kato F40PH. Hope that the colors of the upcoming Intermountain transition Coach Dormitory will match too. The drawing of that car looks nice.
But I still have another question about the Walthers cars. I read that Kato cars have small wholes in the upper floor, so that the light can also go through and enlight the lower level. How did Walthers solve that problem?
And can you tell me if the Kato F40PH is powered on all four axles? It´s important for me to know, since my F40PH should be able to pull 8 Superliners, 1 baggage and 1 MHC uphill on 3% grades. And which DCC decoder from which manufacturer would you recommend to install in the Kato F40PH?
The Walthers cars do not have lower level lighting. Some light comes through to the bottom since the interiors are a tan/yellow colored slightly opaque plastic. However if you paint the interiors to look more realistic, less light will come through. I still have to finish painting mine.
Below is what a Walthers Superliner II Lounge looks like with the Walthers lighting kit. Note how the lower level is much darker. This will be more pronounced once I get around to painting the interiors. I might make my own custom lighting for these cars with small LEDs since the lower level will be noticebly darker as is. The funny thing is the lower level diffused lighting actually looks more realistic. But again, it's going to get a lot darker when the interior is painted blocking out the slight opacity of the molded interiors:
I would wager the Intermountain Coach-Dorm paint will not match the Kato red and blue paint. It will probably be closer to the Walthers colors. Kato's color choice is unique among the many Amtrak manufacturers out there. It's wrong as discussed by many Amtrak modelers, but the difference is not super noticeable on my trainset of Kato F40s and Walthers Superliners. It's just a nit pick some of us hard core Amtrak modelers notice.
The Kato F40 is powered on all axles. So it should be able to handle your consist, although a 3% grade is steep. However you really need two F40s to pull the consist you're planning. From what I remember, a good rule of thumb is that in the real world one F40 could pull passenger 7 cars.
Digitrax makes a plug and play decoder for the F40. Comes with sound. This decoder is what my two Kato F40s use.
Digitrax F40 Decoder
One word of caution, I'm not sure if any of the manufacturers (even old Con-Cor) Superliners can negotiate an 18" radius. I'm not even sure if the Kato F40 can handle that tight a radius. Someone here would probably know the answer though.
As a side note, I have a model of the same car that Intermountin will be using for the Amtrak Coach Dorm. It's a Train Station Products Santa Fe Hi-Level Step Up coach issued by Intermountain. It came fully painted and assembled. It also includes an interior. I added interior details, and custom LED lighting. This is what the model looks like:
7j43kI chose the plated Walthers cars because I LIKE the plating,
Hello Ed,
I understand that. I also LIKE the plating a lot, and it sure looks much better and realistic with it than without it. But now after Matt told me that even the Kato Superliners cannot handle 18 inch curves too, it doesn´t matter to me that much if I choose Kato or Walthers, because I have to do some modifications around the truck area anyway in order to make them 18 inch suitable. I made these modifications also with my Walthers heavyweight cars ( just snipped away some plastic around the truck area), and now they get easily through 18 inch curves. You can see my heavyweight Walthers train passing through 18 inch curves in these 3 videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IK3o98B2i4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tdjFy9qeM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHQPH8zvdp4
So now that I know that I have to snip around anyway, I might also take the Walthers cars, because I like the plating very much too. And I might survive the fact that it is a little bit more complicated to install the marker lights into the Walthers cars than into the Kato cars, since it is the only real minus point. But I will still wait a bit and see, maybe the decision gets more easy when I have the cars of both manufacturers in front of me, so I can compare directly.
The only real problem might be if the F40PH cannot handle 18 inch curves. Then I really don´t know which engine to take, since it is my favorite Amtrak engine and probably the best one on the current HO market. But in my eyes that short 4 axle unit should be able to handle 18 inch curves, in case of a FP45 it would be more understandable that it cannot handle it.
Greetings from Germany
Daniel:
The Kato HO F40 Amtrak Locomotives Comes 2 Ways Each with 3 Road Numbers in Phase III Paint.
You can purchase them as DC models and ADD Digitrax's Motor/Light DCC Decoder or their Motor Light Sound Combo DCC Decoder that is made for the Kato Model.
Then there is the same Locomotive but in Kato's KOBO line. This is the same model with ALL Detail parts installed at the Factory AND the Digitrax DCC and Sound Board Installed.
Both models comes in Road Numbers #375, #391 and #400. Again, the DC versions Do Not have the detail parts installed (they do come with them) and there are a lot of them!
Here is a link to each:
https://modeltrainwarehouse.3dcartstores.com/Kato-HO-Scale-EMD-F40PH-Locomotive--Amtrak-391--Phase-III-Paint_p_176-2394.html (Kato Photo of the DC version is shown with the detail parts installed)
https://modeltrainwarehouse.3dcartstores.com/Kato-HO-Kobo-EMD-F40PH-Locomotive--Amtrak-391--Phase-III--With-DCC-Sound_p_147-1379.html
Also as another poster indicated Intermountain is receiving this month the Amtrak HO Coach/Dorm Car. In the past these cars have been much different than either the Kato's or the Walthers (probably closest to the Kato's) so they will standout when running with either of the others. However that is how it is on the Prototypes also. If you look at the Coast Starlight the Parlor Car looks much different than any of the Superliners.
Again as another poster indicates the Walthers F40's are Toy Trains where the Kato's are Model Trains. (hence the quality and price difference). The Kato's are great runners.
Northridge Switcher
Daniel,
Kato offers a "step down coach" which is the same thing as a transition coach with baggage car combo in Phase 3 paint scheme. There's only one problem: it's N scale.
I sent an email to Kato suggesting they come out with an HO version of the same thing. We all might want to do that if everybody here models HO.
I checked InterMountain for a HO Amtrak Phase 3 transition coach, but there's still no sign of one coming up. Is this true? I'll keep checking in the future.
I sent an email to Walther's suggesting they bring the Amtrak HO Phase 3 baggage car back. They replied saying I was the first customer to suggest such a model. Now some of you have said, "I've been bugging them to bring their baggage car back." Talking to them on the phone doesn't do any good. YOU MUST FILL OUT AN EMAIL SUGGESTION FORM with them. Otherwise, your message, as good-intended as it is gets nowhere.
I don't know what to believe? I've called Walther's and talked to their customer service lady. She said just by placing a Amtrak HO Phase 3 baggage car order online that that was good enough to tell Walther's that you wanted it back. Then why did I receive an email from someone else working at Walther's that I was the FIRST customer to suggest bringing back this model from retirement? Screw it!
For a short time, Kato had run out of Amtrak F40PH Phase 3 with DCC & sound # 391 and # 375. They only had locomotive # 400 left. # 391 and # 375 were gone!!!
Kato brought back # 391 and #375 w/ DCC & sound eventually. When they did this, they raised the price by $50.00 per locomotive!!! If you notice: on Kato's screen that # 391 and # 375 are brought back temporarily - that there's a limited number of these left in stock. It doesn't say that about the # 400 locomotive, which I guess they have plenty of.
As far as which Superliner cars should I go with? I guess if you want a uniform-looking train consist, go with Kato, because Kato locmotives are better. Otherwise, it doesn't matter. You can buy an interior lighting kit, along with interiors for Walther's Superliner cars. Yes. Walther's doesn't have the end marker lights like Kato does.
And I don't know about you, but I find it extremely frustrating that I can't find HO Kato Superliner Coach stock #'s 35-6051, 35-6051A, and 35-6051B for sale anywhere online! I want those three coaches, but it looks like I'll never get them, because Michael, at Kato USA said, "Those are being discontinued."
I said to him, "WHAT??? ARE YOU CRAZY??? I WANT THEM!!! PLEASE BRING THEM BACK." But I found that when you yell at somebody it falls on deaf ears. Michael's no exception. I just wish he wasn't the only one holding the keys.
Intermountain has produced the transition car in Amtrak phase III. It was in the dorm form. Sometime within the last couple years.
Jay
wholeman Andre, .... Train station products makes a kit of this car. The only problem is that it is the original floorplan with the original seats. The modified units had different windows where the dorms were located. Hope this helps.
Andre, ....
Train station products makes a kit of this car. The only problem is that it is the original floorplan with the original seats. The modified units had different windows where the dorms were located.
I have lots of picture of the Amtrak California Zephyr with no modified windows in the ex-Santa Fe El Capitan transition bi-level cars used at the head end of the train. I'd say "most" of the pictures show unmodified windows but it depends on what time period also - probably late 1980's there was a better chance of finding cars with the narrow windows on one end of the car.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I chose Kato F40PH engine and 1 Santa Fe (because that was what I was used to seeing run past my house growing up). and Kato superliner cars as well as baggage.The reasons being that I can't see myself doing much detail work on cars, also my curving spaces will be limited. I am also using the phase III paint scheme and found it somewhat difficult to locate the items I needed. Kato cars are reported to roll more smoothly. I have not yet gotten a transition car. Also I'm just purchasing the engines, cars and scenery I need for the set-up I have in mind. I don't yet have the space to set it up. Let us know what you decide to use and why. Thanks, JB
I too have been eying Kato and Walthers superliner cars with a plan to create a modern Amtrak consists. I model transition era 55-56 - so Amtrak obviously doesn't fit the mold. But after traveling on Capitol Limited and Coast Starlight I fell in love with Superliners and Amtrak, so I said - why not.
Choosing between Kato and Walthers, while I like Walthers metal finish - it seems the process smoothes out the detail on the car - making it look more toyish than it really is. Kato detail is crisp and has a lot of small lettering applied. It looks like Walthers omitted a lot of lettering for some reason, usually they are really good about that. Finally, while Kato has a lot of molded on grab irons, for the reason that irons are recessed by the door on the real Superlines, Kato detail doesn't look offending to me. Walthers, on the hand applied all of the grab irons separately, but by the doors they actually don't look right because recessed area is not modeled, so grab iron is sticking out.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents and now a couple of questions.
1. What about couplers on Kato superliners. I installed their Kinetic couplers, and while nice they don't seem to have a swinging arm on the knuckle. When coupled, Kato couplers produce click and engage. But I don't see an obvious way to uncouple them, short of lifting the cars. I can't imagine doing that with a full consist! Any idea? Anybody figured how to attach Kadde couplers to either body of the car or to the Kinetic arm?
2) Diaphragms don't touch even with the Kinetic couplers. I see that American Limited makes diaphragms for Con Cor Superliners. Anyone tried to fit those to Kato?
3) Lounge lighting is really poor. Kato put single lighting lens from their N scale on the lower floor, leaving upper floor dark. Anyone have any idea how to install one kit upstairs? Can I connect another LED in parallel without blowing circuit or optional DCC light decoder?
Daniel, TrainsBuddy
Not my intent to hijack this thread but within the next week I will be posting another article on metalizing with photos, tips, and updated application techniques. I'm also experimenting with matching the finish on the Walthers Pine series cars and will post a thread on that as well. The latest pair of cars I'm working on belong to a friend and are Santa Fe based.
IMHO, if modelers want a realistic plated finish, they will be able to do it themselves. It's my intent to share the info to help make it so. If you want your Kato cars to have a plated finish, you will be able to do it if you can handle an airbrush.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
AntonioFP45 Daniel, TrainsBuddy Not my intent to hijack this thread but within the next week I will be posting another article on metalizing with photos, tips, and updated application techniques. I'm also experimenting with matching the finish on the Walthers Pine series cars and will post a thread on that as well. The latest pair of cars I'm working on belong to a friend and are Santa Fe based. IMHO, if modelers want a realistic plated finish, they will be able to do it themselves. It's my intent to share the info to help make it so. If you want your Kato cars to have a plated finish, you will be able to do it if you can handle an airbrush.
The only catch is, you'll have to redecal all that tiny print. My two cents, the plated cars are a nice thought, but they don't match anything else that's suppsoed to be shiny like that, includign Walthers and Bachmann Amtrak coaches, which I plan to use with Superliners en-route to Beech Grove, so I'm not going to worry about the pleated look at all. For you, that meas Kato, unless you are willing to look into the older Wathers cars?
-Morgan
Flashwave, I didn't go into details but look at my past threads. The point I'm trying to convey here is that modelers will be able to have stainless steel (plated) appearances based on personal prototypical style preference: new, over a decade old but well-maintained, aged with some sheen left, flat as asphalt. So a modelers with a fleet of older Walthers Superliners that have no plans on purchasing the plated units won't have to worry about matching the new ones, and can instead refinish them to a prototype finish.
High Greens
Hi there,
I'm new to the MR forums. I've been into modern-day/classic streamliner era HO since I was a kid. In the last few years, I've collected more with my brother.
Anyway, I recently also decided to get a HO Superliner train (in the classic 1990s Phase III, always my favourite!). I was tempted by the Kato, and instead decided to get the Walthers, because of the plating, primarily. They're supposedly bringing out more plated stainless steel models in the future, so I thought it was a step in the right direction. I've always been slightly disappointed by the silver paint of models up to this point.
Here's a review video I did on them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sZtnKbYl-4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HmRj8FnOkA
I couldn't be happier - I think they're some of the most attractive passenger cars I have, along with Broadway Limited's California Zephyr cars. They're plated too, by the way.
Did anyone else have trouble installing the lighting kits though? Mine were incredibly fiddly, and I even had two of them burn out. I think the inside of the roof (which is also metal plated) caused a short circuit. In addition, the light bar moves around way to easily. There's a lot of play, so I'd advise fixing it down with some removable adhesive putty (blutack). Soldering would also work, but I want to remove the interiors for painting some day, so I prefer the less permanent method.
Michael
Quote by Streamlined Trains -
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Hello Michael, Welcome! Hope you'll be here a long time. I enjoyed your YouTube reviews Notable how you spoke in a relaxed manner, took your time, and had good closeups on your passenger cars. A+
(I find it frustrating on YouTube when modelers review an item, but seem to do it in a rushed manner and do few or no closeup views.)
When you have a chance, check your YouTube inbox as I sent you a quick message.
Hi Michael.
Great YouTube reviews.
Yes the interior lights are very tricky to get in there. The worst for me were the sleeping cars.
Shorting out is a surprise as the cars are plastic and what little metal could be in the paint would unlikely complete a circuit.
You mentioned in your YouTube review the marker lights on the Superliners. Unlike Kato, the Walthers cars do not have a lighting kit to light these. But you could easily add some red LEDs and solder them to the light bar.
If you haven't seen this before, here is a review I did on the new Walthers Superliners a while back when I first got them:
Walthers "Plated" Superliner review
Hi again.
New YouTube review up today, showing what progress I've made so far with the lighting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyHm6_lPYFI
I actually did read your review ages ago when I was debating which product to go with (Kato or Walthers) and it helped a lot to see the interiors, and detail up close, despite being a different paint scheme. I would like to do some more accurate modeling (I'd especially like to do a super-detailed added-gubbins rear end to one of the superliners, including the marker lights, and the air hoses etc.
That said, I'm running P42s in Phase 3 with an all phase 3 consist, which never really happened (for long anyway) given how quickly phase 4 was being implemented. I made my first visit to the US during the phase 3/F40PH era, so I guess I'm biased...
I'll probably get a third P42, certainly a Phase 5 one (once Walthers release it!) and a pair of F40PHs to complete my mid-90s Amtrak motive power.
I've also got a decent looking mid-90s Lake Shore Limited/Empire Service, made up of Walthers "Heritage" stock and Bachmann Amfleets. It runs very smoothly at any rate, as shown in the video.
I've seen on Amtrak's 40th Anniversary site a bunch of info on upcoming metal-plated Phase IVb, but I can't find it advertised anywhere else. Any chance its actually going to happen?
Best,