Going Island; Canning Shelf

[FJ and G]

I was planning for a multishelf layout around an approx 15X15 room in O scale but was a bit discouraged by the multishelf duckunder as well as navigating past the closet door and a very large window.

Although I've never been a very big fan of island layouts, I've decided to do just that; and leave about a 2-3 foot walkway all the way around the room.

The very center of the room will contain a 6 ft helix. That will just leave about a foot of layout space; not much, but better than nothing. At least there will be 3 shelves, however, to get a longer run in.

Dave

[philnrunt]

You don't mention which type of RR you are modeling, could an around the wall with a climbing grade on a peninsula do the trick. It dos'nt sound like you are real pleased with the island concept, grab some legal pads and start sketching!
It would be a shame to loose interest halfway thru building your layout due to not being happy with the starting concept.
Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

[FJ and G]

Thanks, Phil, for the advice. Can I call you Dr. Phil? :-)

The legal pad trick sounds good. I was just upset and too hastily put this out over cyberspace. I'll study both concepts. Island vs. Shelf. Who will win?

Stay tuned!

dav

[orsonroy]

Don't do it, FJ!

A shelf layout will give you a lot more for your efforts, for about the same sort of cost. With an around-the-walls layout, you'll end up with more overall mainline run, broader curves, and a ready-made backdrop (the wall). Layouts that are joined to the walls are also generally more stable than freestanding ones, and will require less benchwork materials overall (if you make or use shelf brackets, you don't need legs, and the wall obviates the need for a freestanding backdrop support system)

Building a "nolix" will also get rid of that ugly blob called a helix. You've got 15x15; I've got 6x25 with a 6x8 tacked to one side. In HO, I'm able to easily climb 8"-15" ever level, depending on how much flat terrain I've got on each level. You should be able to get at least two levels plus staging in O.

Remember, if you leave at least 3' around the entire island, you'll only really have a 12x12 layout. In HO that's still OK, but is pretty poor in O (unless you're doing On30?). Your scenes will be squished together, your track will be mostly curves, and what's left will be taken up by the helix. I'd take Phil's advice and start sketching plans. It took me a year of doodling, before and after I remodeled my basement, before I came up with a basic layout footprint I could work with (and I tried some goofy trackplans!). If you don't mind repainting the walls, make real mockups of layout designs in your basement, by taping cardboard to the walls. Actually SEEING what a layout might look like is much better than a few doodles!

[FJ and G]

Thanks for the encouragement, Ray. My sanity is slowly returning and I see the benefits. The light has been turned on!

Nolix is something to think about.

And yes, I already have a bunch of "ClosetMaid" shelving from Home Depot for the multishelving idea. It certainly would give me a wider layout than the island thing. I'll spend the better part of this month doodling.

dav

[philnrunt]

FJ- Just don't call me Shirley-ANYWAY, listen to Ray, he has already helped me out !
I work midnights at a small police dept, on the desk, and if they knew just how many legal pads were filled up by layout designs , well, they might put ME in jail!
Keep thinking, keep sketching and keep trying and you will find the right plan. You might also try one of the layout design SIGs, they seem to thrive on these problems.
Again, good luck!

[traingeek087]

Hey this sounds like me. I'm in a predicament about the same topic and have been getting a headache because of thinking about it for the last two years. My room size is 10.5 by 14 foot, and not forgetting to mention it's HO scale. I will model modern day Coal BNSF, although I don't have a lot of room for a coal train. I'm thinking of going to use the mushroom technique, but the problem is I want to be able to move it in 6 or 8 years, and don't want to tear it all up doing it. Got any suggestions? thanks youall.

[FJ and G]

geek,

Glad to share my headache with someone else. In a trackplanning issue (maybe a year or 2 ago?) or possibly in MR? There was a nice planning article for a GN or NP? route through the Rockies that would almost exactly fit your room dimensions.

I think you will have to follow Phil's advice too, and get some scratch paper out and doodle. If you are doing long coal drags, think around the room shelf with hidden staging behind backdrop. Otherwise, your layout will look cluttered. Alternately, you can do a below shelf staging.

As for 6 or 8 years; that's a pretty long time. Whenever I move, I personally enjoy doing an entirely new layout rather than trying to salvage EVERYTHING. Hey, wood is cheap and it doesn't take long (for me at least) to put up benchwork, using the old chopsaw, power drill and drywall screws.

dav

[ndbprr]

I have been planning now for four years. What worked best for me is to come up with the plan that seemed the best and then just live with it. I ran trains in my imagination over it and found some tweaks mentally. Then I set it aside for a couple of weeks. When I went back to it I found some more plus some stupid things I missed initially. When it got to the point it had changed enough I redrew it. I had originnally thought about two levels with selecive compression running from 30th St. in Philly to Trenton. Would you believe I am down to one mile from North phil. station to the Fairhill branch to the east? When I started studying maps, industries and logic I found that area had 58 industries on the main, three yards and a SHORT branch with street running that serviced five customers. So my suggestion is to draw and draw and draw until you are happy and then go from there.

[traingeek087]

well i've done both of the above, and neither have worked. the going around the walls would work, but the door opens into the room raither than out, so I can't have the duckunder. it's confusing because I don't know what to do. I'd have to go around the door opening, or make some kind of thing that attaches to the door and slides when I open it, but I don't think that will work.

[philnrunt]

Traingeek, if you are going to be doing lots of benchwork anyway, why not check into reversing the door to open out? I have heard of this being done for a myriad of reasons(disabled access, looks, etc), seems like a layout would be one of the better ones!

[traingeek087]

You know, not a bad idea. Alright philnrunt, you've got my vote for the idea of the day. I'll look into it. It might be hard, but it just might work out after all. Thanks.

[robengland]

Hang on folks, let's not be hasty. there may be an idea here.

Take a square room. Put a helix in the middle. Wrap shelves around the helix.

It is a big, freestanding structure. Should be big and wide enough to be stable. No holes in walls. No duckunders (except to get into the helix for derails). Continuous walkaround.

Say the room is 10' square. An around the walls, double-deck nolix with track 6" in from the walls will have about 32' mainline length per level, not enough to climb 18" in one turn (unless you want over 5% grade, allowing for a few flat bits at towns).

But a "wrapped helix" in the middle of the room can have two shelves say 3'6" outside edge radius, allowing 18" clearance at closest approach to the walls, which leaves over three feet clearance in the corners. (Draw a circle inside a square). That means the shelf track will have say 3' radius, so we get about 18' of mainline per level. Make the shelf a foot wide, that means the helix space is 2'6" radius, say 2' radius track - not too bad. At 4" elevation per turn, less than five turns between decks.

It is a bit over half the mainline length that an around the walls gives, and it would all be pretty curvy, but it is flat, and duckunder-free. If the door is in the corner of the room, it might even be able to open inwards [:)]

Square off the south-east corner so it is 18" from the walls all around, to make the layout "Q" shaped, then there can be a straight-ish yard along the south edge on one deck and the east edge on the other.

You might even add a third staging deck down at 2'6" off the ground, making the inside of the helix a "wriggle-under" [V]

What if the room is 12' square? Keeping 12" shelves and 18" minimum aisle, the round-the-walls nolix is 40' per level and the wrapped helix 25'. At this size, the nolix actually works: the grades are reasonable. The helix is nice too: about 3' radius which is easier to climb.

Once the room gets bigger, the wrapped helix probably wastes too much space to be worth the benefits.

But for a room 10' to 12' square, or a rectangle 10' to 12' on its narrow side, then the idea is not that silly. You get 40-45% less track length than around-the-walls, and aisles that vary from 18" to 36", but no duckunders, flat shelves, and unmarked walls. Also you can't see the other guys, instead of all standing togther in the middle of the room [:)] The room would feel kinda pokey though, with this big round thing filling it

Hmmm. How's my maths/geometry? And does the idea have legs?

[philnrunt]

Boy, if I had known there was going to be math, I would have studied!
All I can picture in a room that size with a helix is a very crowded room with an octopus in the middle, albeit with only 2 arms. It seems like it would be a huge inconvienience but hey, I've been wrong before.
But if FJ wants to include a work bench, storage shelves and all of the junk that seems to accumulate with a layout, he might regret the helix.
I've never used a helix, I know the people that do love them, but in this case I think the usable space in the room might be eaten up by one.
Now if he put the helix in a corner, then ran shelves around 3 walls, that might be a space saver. And if you need help with the math, Robengland is definitely the person to talk to!

[FJ and G]

Traingeek,

I've been measuring and planning all week and do you know what? My door AND my closet door to the future train room BOTH open inward.

Then the thought occurred; why not just remove the door? Problem solved!!!!! Reversing a door is an option as well, as Phil mentions. I've reversed doors before but there's a bit of prying to do and sometimes the sides of the door split. You can use one that splits anyway, but just filling the cracks with wood filler then painting over; but pulling out and reversing a door isn't that much fun. You also might need a new door if you have a right handed door but need a left or visa versa.

Robengland:

Your idea is interesting and I will explore it further as I'm not fully decided yet, but while drawing plans over the weekend, I found that the radius of the track curves can be much much much wider when going around the sides of the room, rather than a center island or helix. Since my room is 15X15 (approx), that gives me about 55 feet for the nolix ramp, enough for about 26 inches at 4 percent, and, there's no wasted space, as you would have with the center of a helix.

Phil,

I drew plans with a helix in different parts of the room and there's no getting away from the fact that a 78" diameter helix (O scale, double-track) would eat up a large chunk of small room.

However, if the center of the helix were scenicked (with scenery liftable to become an access hatch), then the helix wouldn't really be considered a space eater but an integral part of the layout. The reason I didn't like it is because it didn't fit in with my track planning.

But I'm keeping an open mind on the helix idea and will pour over these notes today. Like Phil, I have used up a ton of scratch paper and it was kinda fun; like puzzle solving.

Thanks all.

Dave Vergun

[cwclark]

I think this is the wisest thing to do...the multilevel duckunder idea was going to be too hard to pull off...you're on the right track (arr..arr..pun) the easier it is to get to stuff the more fun you'll have without the frustration of reaching things on the layout...[:D]...Chuck

[philnrunt]

Removing the door is a good solution, I did'nt know if security was a problem or not. And you're right, with a 15x15 room, a 78" anything would have to really justify itself to be considered. Keep us posted about your progress.
I myself have just started tearing down my layout, mostly due to this Forum getting me fired up to do something else!
Good luck FJ and T-geek, soon we will be working on my problems!