Walther's High Prices

[philnrunt]

I know this is attacking a sacred cow, but am I the only person that thinks Walthers is about 30 per cent overpriced on everything they produce?
Their Trainline power and rolling stock is nothing to brag about, yet they price it quite a bit higher than Athearn,Branchline Roundhouse,or MDC (all better looking and performing) and other less detailed models. I can see 20-30 bucks on rolling stock that would have been considered museum quality just a few years ago, but not on Walthers train set items.
As for their buildings, I give them great credit for finally bringing out structures closer to the size of real industries, but I stopped buying them due not only to the price but also the total lack of quality of their decals. They remind me of the old Lindberg Line of military models decals,(that shows some age, now dosnt it?) after you put them on you have to piece them together or just throw them away.
DPM, City Classics and Bachman all have equal or better buildings for not nearly as much cash!
I will say that they are improving constantly, so I may need to give them another look. After my next raise.

[METRO]

As a longtime Milwaukean I guess I have a bit of a soft spot for Walthers, but I think I may be able to give you some reasons for their prices:

As for locomotives, the trainline series came out at a time when the hobby was still ruled by Athearn Blue Box. P2K was just starting to become a great series and companies like Stewart and Kato were not the best known. As such, Walthers saw a niche for RTR medium price locomotives, as a middleground between Athearn and companies like Atlas or Bachman Spectrum. I think though that Walthers has not reacted to the competiton from compaines like Athearn and P1K who have done the mid range RTR at a much lower price, and Walthers is probably paying for it in sales.

When it comes to structures, Walthers is the king, nobody offers their range of structures. That being said though you should probably do what I do, wait for em to go on sale. Walthers always has some great sale going on and their structures all go on sale at sometime or another.

As for their rolling stock, well have you seen those new passenger cars, WOW! I say that getting a pullman that looks and runs as good as brass for only $30 is a great deal, and I think that about most of their other stock too.

[Anonymous]

There is no manatory rule that says you have to buy from Walthers. It's been my experience
that they have about the best professional staff & order takers on board. You should sign up
for the Walthers" Terminal Hobby Shop monthly sales flyer. I just saved 25% to 30% just on Monday.

[MAbruce]

If you are talking about the prices they sell things for directly - You have to remember that Walther's is a distributor, and can't set their own prices to be in competition with their own customers (LHS’s). They have been, and probably always will be priced higher than most discount sellers.

If you are talking about the MSRP they set on their own products through retailers, then, that's just what they feel they can sell it for.

[Anonymous]

In my experience, the Walthers prices seem pretty reasonable, at least, compared to Athearn RTR cars. Interestingly, my LHS has recently cut their Walthers prices massively - don't know if this is due to exchange rate fluctuations or simply a desire to sell more models!

[philnrunt]

You all make valid points, and I do use them quite a bit. I like the distributor, I'm just not crazy about the manufactuer!

[simon1966]

I use the Walthers web site all the time for reference and for looking for things, but have never purchased anything from them directly. As with any distributor, they are setting the MSRP for the products they distribute. In my travels, I have noticed that many of the LHS simply put things on the shelf at this Walthers MSRP. However, it is very rare that you can not find an item either on the web, or in LHS that discounts, that does not approach 20% off the Walthers MSRP. My advice is to use the Walthers numbers as a sanity check when at a train show or on e-bay. If your purchase price, including shipping handling and any other fees, equals the Walthers MSRP you have probably over paid.

Quick segue into the E-bay thread.

Why on earth do some listers even bother to put items with a starting price close to the Walthers MSRP? Most to the model RR stuff listed in this way does not get a bid of any kind. I guess there are mugs out there who don't bother to check prices?

[michealfarley]

For the price, the Walthers Passenger cars are some of the best values around. They come with metal wheelsets, interiors, and lighting kit ready. If the Ready-to-run offers an advantage, like metal wheelsets, coal loads, interiors, NMRA weight, or wire grab irons, then it's more worth the price.

Now on the other hand, look at Model Die Casting (Roundhouse). All they did was put their kit together and put it in a box. No metal wheelsets, no additional weights, same cast-on details, and they want $20 a car? You aren't getting anything for your money other than assembly. That's when things get overpriced.

[jsoderq]

A little info. The original trainline locomotives were originally produced in Hong Kong probably by Kader (owner of Bachman) for Cox who was mainly a model airplane company in the US. They were sold mostly in sets like Cox Lumber Company loco- operating log car - caboose etc. Some of the freight cars were from this line. Next, Walthers put out many frieght cars from the old Train Miniature line. While these cars had various problems the were very popular and are still collected by some. This was at a time when the ho market was a little soft so they filled a void.
If you look at the tremendous number of new items Walthers has developed over the last few years, you must realize all those costs were not covered by buying one Trainline loco. There has to be enough profit to cover ensuing costs. They also have a large online operation - one of the few where you can accurately check inventory on any item in their warehouse. Everything they do has an associated cost which is paid for by profit on what they sell.

[CP5415]

Walthers is trying to do something that we all want!
MAKE MONEY!!!!!
If Walthers didn't make a profit, Walthers wouldn't exist nor would the company have lasted this long.
The same can be said about every other business' on the planet.
If the company I work for, didn't make a profit, I wouldn't have a job & the same can be said for everyone else in the Western Hemisphere.

But that's just my two cents

Gordon

[ATSFCLIFF]

I only buy Walther's structures and I find their prices are reasonable. Although their range for N scale is rather small, I think that Walthers have given us a more varied choice. Ultimately it's still your choice, remember they are distributors and as such not every product will be a gem.
Tell us which manufacturer or company has reduced their prices.
Just imagine if you didn't have Walthers??

[philnrunt]

Now remember I am not complaining about the distributor side of the business, I am saying that if they are going to charge more for their in house line of stock, it should be worth the extra cash. It's not. The buildings are pretty good, but the decals stink. And paying 20-30 dollars for a building flat is way too steep.
I have to admit I hav'nt looked at any of their recent releases, and I will, I promise, but I still feel they are increasing prices without a comensurate increase in quality.

[Anonymous]

Every business had better make a profit, or they won't be around very long.

HO prices have soared, in my opinion, in the past ten years. Best way to measure this is not to refer to a 1994 Walthers catalog, but check out ad prices from some of the long standing discount hobby shops, that are still selling many of those items from 10 (or in some instances, 30 or more years ago). It's partially about inflation-everything costs more-some items a lot more now than even 10 years ago. The rest is a function of supply and demand. As long as model railroaders and hobby publications go nuts for plastic HO $20. box cars,$40. passenger cars,$200 diesels, and $400 steamers, manufacturers will charge what the market will bear.

Admitedly, many HO items offered today simply blow away what was even available 10 years ago. We have become ever more conscious of the very things that rivet counters used to be chided with. . .A manufacturer that introduces an improperly detailed or painted piece will be nailed in reviews and on Forums like this. If it operates poorly the word will spread rapidly. It takes a much higher quality product today to satisfy modelers, and in most cases the manufacturers have responded. I think that Life Like Proto 1000/2000 still gives us the best bang for the buck, with Bachmann Spectrum (usually) a close second. I think that Athearn rtr 'blue boxes' are one of the worst, most highly inflated items on the LHS shelves today. (I can already hear the outcry from the faithful !) And, I have a ton of them, but I purchased them at an average price of less than $3. each in kit form. ( Why anybody would by one of these or an MDC Roundhouse product in rtr form amazes me. A Proto 2000 freight kit, on the other hand is more understandable.)

My issue w/ Walthers, and always has been, is that a lot of the MSRPs indicated do not reflect what one can actually acquire the items for in the retail/discount and/or mailorder-internet world. Of course that impacts the LHS with a dwindling customer base due to pricing/margins pressure. Either they start discounting to attract or retain their customer base and work off of smaller margins, settle on a certain level of retail trade at retail prices, expand into a mailorder internet based operation,to amortize their operating costs, offer a special niche service (like custom painting), or focus on a certain segment -like large scale 'garden railroad' stuff.

The biggest single problem w/ the Walthers published prices in their catalog is that the model railroader-to-be / newbe may be turned off by the sometimes alarmingly high and unrealistic prices, and unless they have a mentor educating them re: how to not have to take out a 2nd mortage to fund their mrr startup costs, theyll pass on our hobby.

The "30% overpriced" issue raised by 'philnrunt' is a function of Walthers not getting into a price war w/ the LHS that they source to, which must be the main source of Walthers' revenue. I suspect that Walthers' TrainLine rolling stock will be offered as long as there is a market for it, and I'd suspect that market is not too robust, nor will it improve, unless their rolling stock does. . .Some of their formerly Train Miniature freight cars are an exception, at least to me, and if they had a significant sale on those, I'd grab
them up. Their structures are a welcome addition to our hobby, and that they are adding to it every year, is great. Are they pricey? Only if you pay MSRP. Are they well detailed? Think of them as a canvas to add details, colors, etc to make it appropriate for your railroad-who says it has to look like the illustration on the box. . .Are they a good deal? Yes.

I think if Walthers plainly stated in a conspicous place in their catalog : "Prices Indicated Are Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price" , it would put the whole scenario into focus-

BILL

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by METRO: Walthers always has some great sale going on.

The "JC Penney" of model railroading!

[Anonymous]

with Neiman Marcus price tags. . .

[lupo]

As there are not many LHS that have what I want, and some internet discounters do not have all Items in stock that they advertise ( item ships within 3-5 days or out of stock ) so I used the walthers website to look at the availability of locomotives I wanted, than send a mail to an Internet-discounter asking him his price. and if their price is right than order.

I am going to order direct from walthers because I think it is a great way to get special items not available in most European / dutch LHS and often not available at Internet stores.
I see it as a good service to customers far away from any LHS.

[AntonioFP45]

As far as the passenger cars the price is not bad. In the not to distant past, you either had to buy brass or buy a lot of small detailing parts. Then you had to spend "oodles of time" to detail streamlined 85ft passenger cars just to get it to the detail level that the Walther's cars come with in the box! Top it off, they're available on some websites for about $25 (except the Super Chief's of course). In this area, Walther's is a winner.

It would be interesting in Walther's got into more locomotive manufacturing to compete with with the other "heavy hitters" (Proto, Atlas, Kato, Stewart, Spectrum).

[Anonymous]

I'd like to see Walthers reissuse some of the former Train Miniatures product line. They have but a couple of them still in their 2004 catalog, but used to offer much more. I remember when TM first came out in the '60s, they were to that decade, what Athearn was ten years prior. The TM freight cars were some of the first mass produced injection molded plastic rolling stock that paid a fair amount of attention to details, and little things like the thicness of hand rails and grabs, roofwalks, door runners, etc. They weren't perfect, but were light years ahead of anything else at the price, esp Athearn 'blue box' kits of similar prototypes. If Walthers priced these kits today at a price point near MDC and Athearn, I think they'd have a winner. Next to more finally detailed and probably more accurate Proto 2000 stuff, they still hold up well.

[Anonymous]

I've never bought anything from Walthers. I find i can do much better either from the manufacturers directly or from the larger internet merchants. Also I'm a TOC modeler and Walthers are turn of the wrong century.

Randy

[Anonymous]

I've never bought anything from Walthers. I find i can do much better either from the manufacturers directly or from the larger internet merchants. Also I'm a TOC modeler and Walthers are turn of the wrong century.

Randy

[Budliner]

hey we have a trick in MA for overpriceing


its called Boycott


[xx(]


the bud

[Anonymous]

hey 'Budliner'--

Then how come you still elect Kennedy and Kerry? Opps, sorry, that was too politically correct. . .However, let me remind you that you guys threw all the tea in the harbor once. What happened to that spirit?

BILL

[lupo]

maybe the high prices in the Walthers catalogue are there to give you the idea you get a good deal buying at your LHS ( big chance it's a Walthers customer )
they can give you a "discount " and still make a reasonable profit [:D]