Turnouts, Ties & Caboose handthrows

[wvretiree]

Mark,

Two points:

1. I am making N-scale Fast-Track #6 turnouts (have 10 almost completed and only have 65 more to go!).  It was recommended by Fast-Track that I use there HnO3 PC Board ties for the throwbar tie. 

2. I was told by a friend who models in O Guage that he discovered that Alex caulk conducts electricity, so you may want to be careful if using caulk to mount your track to the roadbed (which is what I plan to use).

Cheers,

fungusfarmer

www.stansnscale.com  (under construction)

[Marc_Magnus]

Hi from Belgium again,

Nice to see some handlaid turnouts in Nscale made like me with Fastrack Jigs.

As say before in this topic I don't understand why you want to use the disgraceful handtrows for moving the point of the turnouts.

I know all the device marketed are quite expensive but here is a nice device you could do by you and it' s an under trow, the price is a few cents.

Here is the link http://housatonicrr.com/ go in the construction journal and in the tips link and you can find this small scratchbuild device. Another source is the blog of http://nyhrr.com/ wihch use only handtrow device; see it on the layout construction journal.

About foam subroabed I am not convinced at all, I made a try a few years ago and have found it's difficult to lay the track on it; you need to glue it with an hard glue, which don't allow you to make a change in the future without breaking all the pieces of track down. Second it's hard to find a good way to fix the throwing device, handled or motorized, you know what about I am speaking.......So I use foam only for scenery construction base.

On My Maclau River I spike down all the track with pins with the head cutoff on a cork roabed, it's invisible, The track is well fastened on the roabed but you can lift it above the pins for change.The ballast is glued with white glue, but a brand which is still reversible when you put water on it.

If you need to make a change, just put warm water on the the track and a few time later you could keep  the track over by lifting it and without breaking it. With some clean up it's reusable. Think about all the time you spend making this tiny turnouts.............

I agree with you for all the tutorials you can find on the Fastrack webside (www.handlaidtrack.com) and on the new MRH site. Some English site could give you some other way, at the cheappest price, to throw your turnouts.

 

[bigduke76]

I've been hand-laying turnouts and all (well, almost all) my track for over 50 years now, and i'd like to add a little tip.  Before you put a rail joiner on the end of a rail, or vice versa, take a little file; take a little time and put a little chamfer on the inside corner of the end of the railhead.  I've yet to see a rail joiner that held the ends of two rails in perfect alignment.  Also, bend up the little tabs where the rail joiners end; this will act as a spring-loaded wiper/contact on the bottom of the rail.  respectfull submitted, big duke.

[Scarpia]

Your ideas on this layout are sound, and I think you'll get exactly what you're looking for out of it - a great learning process. I still "operate" my first one, having it working while I was working on the second made a nice diversion - especially if you're hand laying, as it just takes longer to get stuff up and running than with flex. I think it's vital when you start out to have a clear idea of what you want, a goal thats achieveable, and than do it. Too many projects get started and never completed.

I've had great luck with the Bullfrogs, I picked up two at the NMRA show, and ordered another ten after trying them out. They are, without a doubt, the least fussy to install of any under track throw that I've tried, in part because they have a lot of throw power. They're very well engineered, and the price is reasonable I think.

Per the foam, I've moved "back" to cardboard strips, masking tape, and plaster. It's not hard to get lower than track level terrain with this method, it's light weight, less messy, and while I'm not sure, it may be less expensive over all than the foam.  As I mentioned, I've found all the work arounds with foam to be a PITA - such as trying to mount a switch throw to the bottom of the layout, make the layout quieter, and for hand laying, well you need homasote to hold the spikes (although if you go the Fast Tracks method of soldering PC ties even to non special trackwork, that's not necessary). Heck, not using foam board is probably even better for the environment overall. Me, I just hate working with the stuff, gawd what a mess!

Keep us posted.

 

[mcfunkeymonkey]

Thanks for the thoughts!
Building & installing turnouts is new to me, so the process is evolving as I go.
What I've done in the last few posts seems to, at least, create working track & turnouts on the layout, so I'm hoping/guessing it'll get better as I go.

I just picked up one of those malleable files at the local hardware store & seems to be working alright fine tuning some points.  I wonder how bendy it is compared to the fasttracks one.

The more I read about homasote, the more it sounds like a good way to go, especially when I start handspiking track & turnouts.  I guess I'm trying not to take on too many new things at once! ;)
I've never used foam before, & so far it's turning out alright.
It helps keep the weight down, which will be nice when we move.
It was easy to carve out the harbour & lowered road areas, as well as create the pit for my turntable & cut & sand the incline for the carfloat.
It's also been great to lay track on: caulk goes on easy & the 2" makes pinning the track a breeze.
(Main drawback so far: the Attack of the Pink Particles!).
But I would like try homasote at some point.  Next layout, perhaps ;)

As for the throws: yes, they're big & ugly.  But for this layout, I'm trying to have everything on the deck & manual & in position as possible, which is a bit difficult in N-scale.  But since I depressed the throws, and after I ballast & scenic the surrounding area & weather the throws, I don't think they'll impose themselves as the giant catapults they can appear to be.
But, depending on how things go, perhaps the next layout will have underthrows.  The wooden Bullfrog at fast tracks looks pretty good.  & several people on this forum have great tutorials on their manual throws. MRH had a good article on knob controls too.

Thanks again for all the ideas!  Keep 'em coming!
So many ways!  And yes, I am having fun!
Cheers!
--Mark

[Scarpia]

Looks great so far. Seems you're happy with the turnout process. Kinda fun, isn't it?

If I could suggest three things...

1. ditch the foam entirely as a base. My first was on foam, and I grew to hate it, and now that I've moved to homasote, I have a hard time seeing the advantages of foam. Foam to me actually seems to require more work arounds in the long run than more traditional base materials such as plywood and homasote.  And now that you're making your turnouts and track the hard(er) way, the speed advantage of foam seems less of one.

Granted, if that's what you have down, than go with it, but after having done the same thing as you are, I won't go back to it.

2. Fast Tracks sells a small malleable file (bendable) that is great for fine tuning points, frogs, etc., even when they're in place. It's worth the money.  You can with or without it fine tune some of those bumps (and based on what I see from your photos of your frog cuts, it's because your saw wasn't perpendicular as it could be).

3. Caboose throws work great, but are awful ugly. Why put those on what will be beautiful trackwork? I have used N scale Caboose throws succesfully for HO, but even underscaled, they're still ugly. Consider under track throws - you can even make your own for less than a couple of bucks, and "commercial" versions start at $6.

I'm looking forward to your progress.

[mcfunkeymonkey]

Like I said last post, the closer/forward/lower/to the right turnout had frog issues (not sharp enough / extended enough so there was too large a gap between frog & pointrails), so I removed that turnout:



The turnout had been attached to the foam with caulk, so that just scraped off, and the two pcb ties gorilla glued to the styrene turnout fixture just popped off as well, leaving it firmly glued in the foam.

I built a new turnout (amazing how experience informs successive construction!) & installed it much the same way: caulk under frog area to foam, two pcb ties straddling throwbar with gorilla glue.

When all dry, I repeated the steps of inserting another pcb tie under the pointrails to make a stronger anchor, then cut with a dremel disk to isolate the frog.

This time I was careful not to cut the stock rails (though I did nick one a wee bit!).

Then I cut wood ties to length, slid under the turnouts & used whiteglue diluted with alcohol & water to tack in place.

I painted the whole thing with "tuxedo" latex paint. I wiped the top of the rails with a papertowel wetted with alcohol (rubbing). I put labelle oil on the throwbar & moving parts (before painting), & kept moving the handthrows over the next couple hours to make sure nothing stuck.

& here's a closeup of the crossover:

hmm... a bit blurry when blown up. I'll try to get a better one soon.
Also need to touch up some areas with paint, but some cinders / ballast will help as well.

Everything dried, & after a track cleaning, my 44tonner ran fine over the whole section.

Been slowing down in my turnout making, taking my time to get the filing of the stockrails & points to fit very well (if they don't, they create a tiny bump / curve that jiggles the trucks).

While this single crossover works well, Good thing I have 30+ more turnouts to get it 110% right!

[modelmaker51]

I have always attached CH ground throws straight to the foam with low-temp hot glue. I have over 60-some turnouts with no failures in almost 10 years. Latex cotact cement also works very well if you don't mind waiting for 24 hours for the glue to completely set up.

[mcfunkeymonkey]

The good, the bad & (mostly) the ugly.
Carved out the space for the throw mounts:

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The left side is ragged & ugly because I had ripped up some cork roadbed & the caulk pulled up a wee bit of foam which I filled with plaster which then flaked when I cut it.

The carving on the right is cleaner because I slowly shaved layers of foam with an exacto, & then filed the finish into a clean smooth rectangle.

I slid railjoiners on the ends of the turnouts, & joined the two turnouts together to form a single crossover.

I spread caulk on the foam under the frog / diverging sections of both turnouts, & spread Gorilla Glue under the throw mounts.

I placed the fixture, connected the railjoiners, pressed the turnouts into the caulk & held with t-pins, & put weights on the throws to hold for the GG to set.

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It was about this time when I realized that the space for the left turnout throw unit was way too deep, so I bent it up a bit & poured some more (just a bit more!) Gorilla Glue down there, counting on its expanding properties to take up the space & make the bond.

I was about to leave for a couple hours when, in a flash of insight boarding on enlightenment, I thought to cover the handthrow itself with a plastic bag "just in case" the glue really foamed.

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And look at that! Foam it did, but handthrow stuck did not! The handthrow units were now rock solid!

After that I took a dremel thin cutter & stuck it in my drill & made cuts to isolate the frog:

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I forgot to cut the pcb ties at the top of each frog, so my powercab was shorting out. But after I cut the gaps, I could run my 44tonner through both turnouts. A little bumpy, but it worked!

You'll see on top of the far right circle (my first cut) that I cut too far & the diverging rail was cut as well. Bad place for it, since its curving & so now it's out of alignment.
I had other issues with the bottom turnout as well (slightly crooked frog), so I just recently took it out: it just pulled off the caulk & popped off the styrene handthrow mounts, leaving them in the foam.

Right now I'm fitting a better turnout into position, as well as putting wood ties under the first turnout & affixing them with diluted whiteglue. Will post more soon!

[mcfunkeymonkey]

Over on another forum, Mike asked why I didn't mount the throw on top of ties extending from the turnout.
I responded that I wanted the profile of the "catapults" lowered.
Then he gave me an idea:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Sheridan Fair enough. Why not fit normal length ties to the turnout around the tiebar, then glue a sheet of material to the underside of them and sticking out one side to mount the handthrow on. You could put extra layers under the ties to make the throw even deeper if you wanted. That still gives you the ease of building and setting up the mechanism on the bench, and you just need to dig out a bit of the foam to suit when installing it - no tricky mounting and adjusting at the tracklaying stage.

Fab idea! I agree: keeping the turnout & throw together as one unit makes much sense! So, looking around at what I had, I took some 1mm styrene (wood panel was all I had), painted it black, & CA'd a small section (to fit under the turnout) to a longer section that will be the base for the throw:

Well, one layer wasn't enough clearance for the pin & the throw mechanism, so I CA'd another small section on top of the first, & painted again.

When dry, I realized that I SHOULD have hollowed out a bit of space for the throwbar, so I filed it a bit, which took off the paint. But smooth action is there.

Added some LaBelle oil to the throw to keep things loose.

Then I spread a wee bit of Gorilla Glue on the two pcb ties on either side of the throw, fitted it, placed (but did not glue) the handthrow, & then put a weight on the turnout so the chemicals could go to work.

I supported the other end of the turnout with a 1/8" piece of masonite, which is just about the same height.

I let it sit for a couple hours, then removed the weight:

After testing the bond, I CA'd the throw to the styrene, being very careful not to let any seep out & up into the bar (a fav trick against caboose handthrows).

Applied more LaBelle 107 to the handthrow itself (just to make sure!), & let it cure.

The end result:

A single unit that works great!
The styrene base is, of course, a wee bit flexible.
After I carve an 1/8" inch out of the foam & affix with Gorilla Glue, it will be rock solid.

This method would work GREAT if I was using cork roadbed, which is 1/8" high.
But I'm not (industrial / urban), so I'll need to carve a wee bit, which will help reduce the profile of the "catapults".

Thanks, Mike, for the idea!
I'm sure there are other ways to do it (I'm thinking hardwood might be better), so any feedback greatly appreciated!

Cheers!
--Mark

[mcfunkeymonkey]

I filtered some glue/alcohol between the ties to hold them:

 

which worked out pretty well.  The caulk I put under the two pcb ties around the throwbar didn't hold, so there's some give there (which actually might turn out to be ok in the long run, in terms of flexibility & more gradual curves, but we'll see!)

Turns out the caulk set but the whole throw area was very mushy (too much give under the plates), so I pealed it up a wee bit, scraped out some caulk, & spread some Gorilla Glue under the styrene (based off some people's rec's).

I placed a block of wood & a weight (in this case, the jar of dye for my wood bits) on it cause the instructions call for 1. wet, 2. glue, 3. clamp (or, in this case, press).

 

I tried to go spare, since everyone says GG foams & spreads.

Seems to have worked out:

 

the throw base is almost rock solid.

I'll be administering the following test to the handthrow over the next couple days:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2ZeIoLz8FE

Then I took the same flat latex paint ("tuxedo") & smothered me tracks with it.  I dipped the brush in water every once in awhile & went over so the paint would seep down between the rails.  I painted ties, rails, everything (except the area around the throwbar).

Right after painting, I took a paper towel with some alcohol & wiped down the tops of the rails.  The paint came right off.

(While painting, the paint doesn't stick 100% to the rails, but it does dirty them up.  Question: will latex flake off the metal "down the line?")

Before I painted the turnout, I applied LaBelle oil to the throwbar & handthrow.  I've found that it helps keep the paint (& even CA, sometimes) from freezing up a turnout.

Then I took a smaller brush & did the middle.  Pretty much slathered it.  Then wiped.

Here's a close up:

 

For the past hour, I've been working the handthrow every 10-15 minutes to make sure nothing's sticking, & so far it's working great.

The laytex doesn't stick to the pcb ties as well, & another coat does the trick.

As soon as things dry, I can ballast / scenic etc.

For my real layout, I'm thinking of using 3/8" x 3/4" rectangles of 1/8" masonite as the panels, based on the fact 1. I have lots of that hanging around & 2. the Gorilla Glue makes a pretty impressive base for the handthrow.

I'm still apprehensive of breaking the surface tension of the foam, as I think it compromises the handthrow base, but I'll work on my cutting technique & try not to ball the foam up & maybe I'll get better as I go along.

If anyone has any thoughts, I'd be glad to hear them.
Cheers!
--Mark

 

 

[mcfunkeymonkey]

Thanks, everyone, for yr feedback!

wm3798

That gives me a nominally solid surface to mount the throw to, and it's locked in by the surrounding foam.  Like Ed, I recess the throw by about an 1/8" to minimize the visibility of the gigantic but efficient Caboose Industries mechanism.

Lee

Lee, that's exactly what I want to do.  So over the last couple days, on my test diorama, I've tried this:

 

 I drilled a hole in the throwbar using a #78 bit ('cause that's what I have).  Took a piece of piano wire I had left over from an A-frame bridge I'd built & made a pin, bent the top, pushed it through, & then soldered it.
Not sure how secure that solder joint is, but between it & the tie it should hold for awhile.  I had tried a railspike but that wouldn't solder & stay.

Then I scraped out a section of foam & tried to attach a styrene plate to serve as a base for the handthrow:

 

Unfortunetly, I tried CA first, which resulted in a wee bit of melting.  Best advice I've found with working with foam?  If the product says "flammable", DON'T USE IT on foam!

So I used ALEX caulk & it set fine, but too deep (darn global warming melted my foam!), so I just CA'd another styrene panel on top of the first.  & painted all with Laytex paint ("Tuxedo").

Used the caulk to affix the turnout & track, taking care not to have any around the points:

 

 Notice I gouged out a space for the pin that's dropping through the throwbar.

Once all the track was set, I placed & CA's the Caboose handthrow to the styrene plate.

Then I fitted wood ties under the turnout (no glue):

So!  Just pipetted in some white glue / alcohol between the ties so they won't move when I paint the track.  I figure I don't have to firmly attach the ties, since painting & ballasting will take care of it (yes?). 

So right now waiting for the glue to dry.
(remember: this is a test chunk of foam!)

MAIN ISSUE:  it seems that cutting into the foam & breaking the surface tension of the foam creates an instable base for the handthrow base.  My Handthrow works (very well, actually, considering it's all early work being sacrificed to the guineapiggods, but there's some give & rocking over the foam below.

I'll try blocks of wood next (deeper than styrene), but just seems that cutting the foam reduces firmness.
I have 2" foam, so I'm thinking I might rather attach a 1 7/8" high piece of wood to the plywood base below the foam, so it's all rock solid.  But that means hollowing out 1/2"x3/4"x1 7/8" shafts next to each turnout.

I'll try the smaller block of wood version & see if a wee be more depth doesn't help stabilize.
Thanks for all yr help!
Cheers!
--Mark

[wm3798]

I'm using foam, too.  What I've done is cut a recess in the foam, then drop a square of homasote into it, level with or slightly below the surface.

That gives me a nominally solid surface to mount the throw to, and it's locked in by the surrounding foam.  Like Ed, I recess the throw by about an 1/8" to minimize the visibility of the gigantic but efficient Caboose Industries mechanism.

Lee

[Marc_Magnus]

Hi from Belgium,

Nice work, I am also in the stage of making n°6 N scale turnout with Fastrack jig.

As often mentionned in forum and also by Tim, the Fastrack men, the trowbar in N scale is skinny and often break with the tension around the hole.

I use the Tim solution by using Micro engenering railspike inserted in holes in the trowbars and soldered on the rail to have a moving part ont the trowbar(see his blog for more infos at www.handlaidtrack.com /bronx terminal).

I have obtain a better result but still broken trowbar.

Now for the trowbar I use HOn3 ties, they have the 1/32 tickness of the Nscale ties, but are a little more larger and so forth easier to drill and stronger. Yes they are a little out of scale but when everything is painted and weathered it's hardly to see it.

I prefer to spike the track, not gluing it, because the impossibility to move it when glue dries.

You can drill a hole in the trowbar to fix any things with a wire or a plastic rod.

Marc

[mcfunkeymonkey]

Good idea with the clipping & drilling.

The Caboose handthrows have pins on one side, & a hole on the other.
So unless I want a super-close hole, I can go with the one in the throw.

Also, with extending the wood tie (can do) & then affixing the throw to them: the throw is already pretty "big" for n-scale, & mounting it up even higher than the turnout will make it more the "catapult" on the layout.

Guess I'm looking for under rather than over.
Attaching somehow directly to the turnout is a good idea.

Perhaps a square of styrene under the long ties.
Will test out.

Cheers!
--Mark

[Wazzzy]

if the pin on the caboose hobbies throw is the same diameter as the throw bar, clip the pin off flush with the bottom of the switch stand bar. drill a smaller hole in the switch stand bar AND the switch throw bar. insert piano wire, drop of superglue and you are done with that problem.

can you modify the wood ties (the ones on both sides of the throw bar) to match the width of the switch stand? if so, just make them a tad longer and 'fix' the switch stand to them.

hope this helps

[mcfunkeymonkey]

I know about this technique:

http://www.conrail1285.com/news.asp?storyid=31

but he's cutting through shallow foam & mounting onto wood.
I have 2" foam.
I guess I could scrape out a bit, glue a piece of styrene as a base, then glue the handthrow to the styrene.

Just wondering if anyone had any other ways of doing it, or if the pcboards stand up to repeated use with a hole drilled through them.

Cheers!
--Mark

[mcfunkeymonkey]

Thanks for the tips, grizlump!
I agree: simple & superglue usually fix anything!

The problem for me is that the pcboard throwbar is very narrow, perhaps equal to the width of the caboose "pin" than hangs down.  So unless I attach some kind of wider plate to the throwbar, I'm going to have to go with the hole on the other side of the handthrow & slip some kind of pin in there.  Railspikes have that bent cap already, and if I clip the spike, it won't scrape under.

But good reminder to dig out the space under the foam for the pin & the throwbar action.

Also, you mount yr handthrows directly to the wood.  I'm not sure I could mount the handthrows directly to the foam, as the base surface of the throws doesn't seem enough to not work through the foam over time.

Seems I should mount the throws to a styrene plate that's wider, and then glue that to the foam.

But that raises the throw's profile, which is already approaching "catapult" proportions.

Perhaps I could dig a wee bit out of the foam & mount the throw to be under the throwbar?

In my limited experience with pink foam, it seems once you break the surface tension, you introduce much more instability.

Will keep thinking!
Thanks for the feedback!
--Mark

 

[grizlump9]

 good looking trackwork.  and just think about it.  you will only get better.

 now about the ground throws.  first thing is i model in HO scale and use primarily shinohara switches with code 100 flex track.  you can modify what i tell you to work for you in your scale and to suit the materials you are using.

 to mount the ground throw i first drill a hole in the throwbar exactly the same size as the little pin that sticks down out of the sliding bar on the ground throw.  then i trim the pin off flush with bottom side of the throw bar.

  i am using cork roadbed and in case of yards, the track is directly on the wood.  sand the roadbed a bit under the throw bar to provide clearance enough for easy movement and to prevent snagging.

  center the points of the switch exactly mid way between their two positions (a couple of little wedges or even drill bits will work for this) and make sure the lever of the ground throw is straight up, dead center.  i then hold the ground throw down tight and apply a small drop of super glue to the edges of the base.  capillary action sucks it right under.  be careful to keep the glue out of the mechanism.  hold the ground throw down with the point of a small screw driver or hobby knife until the glue sets up.  you are done.

 a drop or two of plastic compatible oil on the moving parts make for smooth operation.

 if you have a multi-meter, you can then check for electrical continuity. 

 i have been doing this for over 5 years and none of them have come loose yet.  i don't even bother with screws or nails to hold the things down.  super glue does the job.

 hope this helps and keep up the good work.

grizlump

 

[mcfunkeymonkey]

Getting to the point where I can make turnouts that work:

 

So now getting to the issue of installing & hooking up the caboose handthrows I got (206-S, the springloaded ones).

I'm thinking a couple of options:

1.
measure out the space & outline on the foam
cement the wood ties onto the foam
use pliobond to attach turnout to ties
connect flextrack to turnouts

or

2.
layout ties on workbench
use pliobond to attach turnout to ties
use caulk to set turnouts in place
connect flextrack to turnouts

anyone with experience have any advice?

Also, for connecting the handthrows to the pcboard throwbar:
I was thinking drill a small hole in the throwbar & use a clipped railspike to connect to a handthrow, then cement the handthrow to a small piece of styrene, which then is cemented to the foam.

Just wondering if anyone has experience with pcboard throwbars holding up with holes drilled in them.
(in n-scale, they be rather skinny!).

Thanks for yr feedback!
Cheers!
--Mark