Decals GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR !

[wjstix]

C&O Fan

Ok guys Here's the instructions

I did every thing they say nothing more nothing less and they fell off

Twice

so now i've put them back in place and made up a thined white glue

solution and used a small amount

i just hope they don't turn cloudy or white

Regardless of what the directions may or may not say, it's common knowledge that after applying the decal you have to make one (or more likely, several) applications of a decal setting solution like Solvaset to make the decal stay in place and snuggle down onto the car. By missing that step you're causing yourself unneccessary trouble.

Go to the LHS, get a bottle of Solvaset, and use it. Then report back to us how it worked...and put the white glue away !!

p.s. Remember Champ quit making decals years ago. They're just selling off their inventory, so the decal set you have may be 10 years old or more. Older decals like that might not stick the way a fresher one would. But still, no matter what, to get a professional looking decal job you have to apply some type of decal setting solution AFTER applying the decal. Just doing it while putting on the decal will only do so much.

[dinwitty]

 

wjstix

I think the problem is he's putting down setting solution and then putting the wet decal on it. The water is diluting the setting solution. Then that's it, he's not going back and doing an application of Solvaset or other setting solution. I suspect when tries that final step he will get much better results.

 

I usually lay the decal right down, while wet. Solvaset is to drive out the water, get the decal  to lay down over rough surfaces, help "shrink" it down to seat, dissolve glue. Don't be touching the decal once set. Spray clear coat it down with a flat clear paint. 

  

[dinwitty]

 whether the decal can stick or not, do use solvaset, when you think its nearly dry, spray paint with a flat clear paint.

 

[pastorbob]

Well, I am stumped and it is a long trip from Kansas City to Texas (my son lives in Dallas), so someone else will need to help you.  I don't use Champ decals, haven't for many years, but I do a large amount of decaling, since my railroad includes a fictional regional Oklahoma wheat hauling short line that connects with Santa Fe called the Oklahoma Northern.  I use MicroScale alphabet decals, I also had some custom decals made years ago by Don Manlick, plus I do a lot of Santa Fe decaling using MicroScale, Herald King and some source unidentified decals along with some OddBall decals and I am not really fussy about how much water, how clean, how dry, how wet, how long, how much decal set, and I just haven't had that problem.  But then that doesn't mean you aren't, it just means I know of no way to help you so will stay out of it.

Oh, I started decaling my own stuff in the early 1960's and have worked with some pretty rough material and the only time I had the problem was when I tried to use a decal that wasn't really a decal, then it wouldn't stick.

I am adding one last question that I thought of.  If it insults you, sorry, don't intend to do so, but it may have some bearing.  Is this the first time you have decaled anything?  Or have you decaled in the past with better results than you are getting now???????

Bob

[C&O Fan]

maxman

C&O Fan

Ok guys Here's the instructions

I did every thing they say nothing more nothing less and they fell off

Twice

so now i've put them back in place and made up a thined white glue

solution and used a small amount

i just hope they don't turn cloudy or white

 

 

Just as a matter of interest, I note that several responders to this thread have suggested that the decal may have been left in the water too long, washing off all the "glue" that is needed to affix the decal to the model, or speculating that the glue was on the wrong side of the decal.  I note from reading Champs instructions that they suggest that all the glue be removed prior to applying the decal as it is not needed with the proper application of the decal setting liquid.

You are 100% correct

[C&O Fan]

pastorbob

 you are getting the decal off the paper before you apply them, aren't you????

Bob

Yes Bob I am

[maxman]

C&O Fan

Ok guys Here's the instructions

I did every thing they say nothing more nothing less and they fell off

Twice

so now i've put them back in place and made up a thined white glue

solution and used a small amount

i just hope they don't turn cloudy or white

 

 

Just as a matter of interest, I note that several responders to this thread have suggested that the decal may have been left in the water too long, washing off all the "glue" that is needed to affix the decal to the model, or speculating that the glue was on the wrong side of the decal.  I note from reading Champs instructions that they suggest that all the glue be removed prior to applying the decal as it is not needed with the proper application of the decal setting liquid.

[7j43k]

When I was a kid and knew no better, I applied MANY decals to my various plastic scale models. I used no decal setting solution because I didn't know it existed. Nor did I pre-wash the models. Although they had silvering and bubbles and etcetera, they NEVER just "fell off".

Ed

[AntonioFP45]

Does anyone have any good techniques for applying stripe decals? 

--Zak Gardner
http://zgardner18.rrpicturearchives.net
http://mullanpass.googlepages.com/zaksmrl
http://efusjon.com/zachary

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ZGardner

 GMCrail and Modelmaker 51's guidelines are very good.

For long decal stripes the only additional step I take is to take 3M Fine Line tape and apply it to the shell to use as a "straightedge" guide line. Using a small level, I adjust the tape until my level shows me that it is horizontal.  This helps prevent the worrying fuss about the decal stripes being crooked. Afterwards, applying the stripe(s) is a stragihtforward process.   You can get Fine Line in 1/4", 1/8", and 1/16" width sizes. 

Though I haven't used it in a while, Tamiya tape is excellent in quality.  I use 3M because I buy it at a "shop teacher" discount from my vendor.

[BRAKIE]

MPRR

The poster also mentioned not washing the part to be decalled before starting all the decal applying. This may have some impact right?? But then again, much of what is mentioned above also makes sense.

 

Mike,I never wash the engine or car before I decal..I found that is not as necessary as many think.

As I mention I perfer a flat finish.

 

[BRAKIE]

Terry,I have follow those directions for years-that's the only way I will decal..I never use decal set while applying decals and perfer a flat finish like the HR SW7..

I gotta go with Stix on this one..I also think you are missing a step-applying decal set.

 Again..

 Now I let my decals dry thoroughly then add the decal set-I use Solvaset.Then let the decal dry 24 hours before I decal the other side.

 

[C&O Fan]

Ok guys Here's the instructions

I did every thing they say nothing more nothing less and they fell off

Twice

so now i've put them back in place and made up a thined white glue

solution and used a small amount

i just hope they don't turn cloudy or white

 

 

[MPRR]

The poster also mentioned not washing the part to be decalled before starting all the decal applying. This may have some impact right?? But then again, much of what is mentioned above also makes sense.

[zgardner18]

Does anyone have any good techniques for applying stripe decals? 

[wjstix]

C'mon guys, it has nothing to do with how long the decal soaks etc.!! Here's what the poster said happened:

C&O Fan

Well Bob

as per the instructions in the champ package

I painted the area with a small amount of decal set

I soaked the decals in a plate of water and waited till they floated free then

picked the up by the corner with tweezers and applied them

i removed the excess water by touching the decal at the base

with the corner of a paper towel

then let them dry over night

when i touched then the next morning they fell off

See what's missing?? Someone mentioned in follow up post that you need to use a decal setting solution after applying the decal. That's the problem, it's like getting in your car, putting the key in the ignition, starting the engine, using the accellorator to rev up the engine...but you need to put the car in gear to go anywhere. Same thing here, he did everything right except the last step, applying Solvaset or some similar product to the decal.

[7j43k]

SPECULATION:

The decal is supposed to have a layer of glue below the clear decal film. Due to manufacturing error, there is no glue on Terry's sample. Hence, decal does not stick to car.

I also wonder whether Champ put the glue on top of the decal with the idea being that it was supposed to be "glued on" from the inside. Ya never know....

NOT SPECULATION:

I'll also mention that after decaling cars and after using decal solvent, I have washed off the excess glue with a paint brush under lightly running water. I've never had a decal come off.

Ed

[wjstix]

I think the problem is he's putting down setting solution and then putting the wet decal on it. The water is diluting the setting solution. Then that's it, he's not going back and doing an application of Solvaset or other setting solution. I suspect when tries that final step he will get much better results.

[gmcrail]

reklein

I still think too much water initially is the prob. I use only a few drops on a ceramic tile,just enough to wet the paper for about 20 sec or so until they can slide, then transfer.The recieving surface needs to be moist so you can position the decal. Setting solution on over the top,in small amounts. BILL

 

 I think you're on the right track, Bill.  When I do number boards, or other small decals, I don't even dunk them.  I place them on the end of my finger, then place a drop of water on the decal by picking the drop up with a closed set of tweezers and carefully opening the tweezer over the decal.  While that's soaking - a matter of 10 seconds or so - I brush some Micro-Set on the surface to be decaled.  Then follow the steps in my previous post.  

Here's a boxcar done that way, and incidentally, it was done on bare plastic - a Kadee 40' PS-1 kit - I liked the color of the plastic, so why paint it?  The decals don't fall off, either.

   

The repack data (to the left of the ladder) and the "Return When Empty" statement (to the left of the door) are separately-applied decals.

[reklein]

I still think too much water initially is the prob. I use only a few drops on a ceramic tile,just enough to wet the paper for about 20 sec or so until they can slide, then transfer.The recieving surface needs to be moist so you can position the decal. Setting solution on over the top,in small amounts. BILL

[pastorbob]

I still think we are missing something in what he is doing or not doing that causes them not to stick at all.  I have been decalling longer than most of you have been alive.  I follow basic steps, but I don't get as elaborate as some of you and still have no problems.  Champ, Micro, what ever the brand.  I make sure the surface is clean and has a gloss, plop the decal in a container of warm water, lift it out on my finger or with a pair of tweezers depending on decal size, slap it on, blot it and let it dry for a bit, then the Walthers Solva set application, then after 6 hours or so, the dullcote.  Seldom ruin one, they look correct when they dry, and I don't consider it brain surgery to perform.

I just put new numberboard decals in two Kato SD40-2 engines yesterday and they are just fine, do not fall off, and look normal.  I still believe there is something he is doing that we are missing.

I am not trying to insult you or anything else, just trying to figure out what is going on, so I am going to ask you one very simple basic question...you are getting the decal off the paper before you apply them, aren't you????

Bob

[wjstix]

Yes you are leaving off a key step. Regardless of whether you use a setting solution before putting down the decal or not (I usually don't), as soon as it's fairly dry you need to add one or more applications of Micro-Sol or Solvaset to 'snuggle' the decal down. I usually first just touch one corner of the decal with Solvaset, just enough to hold it in place when it's dried. (Capillary action usually moves setting solution under the entire decal.) Then after that has dried and the decal is in place,  I add a wash over the whole decal. You may need to make tiny slits with a razorblade or X-acto knife to open up air bubbles or areas where the decal isn't laying flat (like around rivets) and then add more Solvaset or Micro-Sol.

If the decal moves after applying the setting solution, you only have a few seconds to get it in place before the decal will start to "melt". That's why you have to be careful. Often I'll put a drop on the model and tilt it slightly so gravity slowly pulls the drop to the decal.

Otherwise, unless the decal moves and you have to do a quick fix DON'T DO ANYTHING until it's dried. It may wrinkle the decal and make it look funny, but it will smooth out as it dries.

On a woodsided car, once the decal is in place and dry, I take a single edge razor blade and slide it in the grooves between every board and then reapply setting solution. If you don't do this there will be gaps where the decal is floating on air between the boards.

[C&O Fan]

BRAKIE

Terry.I have used Champ decals for years..

Here's my method..

1.Place decal in water and let it set till the decal will slide from backing.

2.Apply decal by holding and with small tip paint brush slide from backing..

3.Let the decal "set".

4.Apply Champ Decal solution.Let dry at least 24 hours before decaling the other side.

 

I used the same method with custom made decals.

 

 

Nice looking work Larry

guess I'll have to get some of that decal solution stuff

or maybe get out the white glue

they had fallen off again last night 

[BRAKIE]

Terry.I have used Champ decals for years..

Here's my method..

1.Place decal in water and let it set till the decal will slide from backing.

2.Apply decal by holding and with small tip paint brush slide from backing..

3.Let the decal "set".

4.Apply Champ Decal solution.Let dry at least 24 hours before decaling the other side.

 

I used the same method with custom made decals.

 

 

[modelmaker51]

MicroSet is only a "setting" solution. It's purpose is to evacuate the water and air under the decal and pre-soften it (the pre-softening mainly works with thin decals, not so much with the thicker Champ's).

Once the Microset is dry, you need to apply multiple coats of MicroSol, (this is Microscale's solvent}. Between each application of Microsol, look for those frosty spots and air pockets and open them as others have described anjd re-apply the Microsol. You can speed things up with a hair dryer. It can take 2-5 courses (Microsol, drying, Microsol, drying,etc) to get the decals to conform to the surface and stick. Do not touch the decal at anytime with anything other than a soft brush. When completely dry apply finish of your choice.

Contrary to popular belief, the glue that is used is not intended to "glue" the decal to the model, it is only there to hold the decal to the paper backing. By not letting the decal float off the paper, one risks discoloration of the decal over time, (this isn't so much a problem today as better non yellowing glues are used). Decals adhere to surfaces by a "welded" bond to the paint, created by the solvent's softening of the decal., (sorta like welding 2 pieces of styrene with liquid plastic cement), which is also why decals don't stick well to bare plastic.

I have been custom painting and decalling for 30+ years and have had many discussions with the various major decal manufacturers over the years. The best system I have found for consistent results is Microscale's  Microset/Microsol, but you must use both. (I do not work for Microscale!)

Champ decals were originally produced when the original Wlathers Solvaset was around, (which was much stronger than todays version), as decals of the day were much thicker then, Champ never changed their product.

[C&O Fan]

twhite

Terry: 

I used to run into problems with Champ decals, just like you're experiencing.  Usually, when I was trying to decal loco numberboards.  After trial and error, I found that ignoring the instructions about letting the decals float free, and applying them directly from the soaked paper to a Glosscoated surface on the numberboard casting while there was still a slick undercoating, helped a lot.  Then I would flood them with either Microset or DecalSet (Champ's version of the same thing) and letting them dry, then flooding them again about three more times, would usually set them enough that I when finally dry (overnight), I could overspray them with Dullcote and have them stick on permanently. 

The Champ decals are about twice the thickness of the Microscale decals (though I like them better for small detail work), and take a lot more TLC to get 'set' on the surface.   The trick is to apply them from the decal sheet when they're 'sliding' and not floating free. 

Tom  

 

Well Tom what you and some of the other guys are saying here makes sense cause following their instructions sure doesn't work

Here's a picture of the number boards

Pretty small and difficult stuff to work with

A larger picture showing the decals and the solvent

 

I wouldn't have to do this if Athearn could come even close to using the correct road numbers

[twhite]

Terry: 

I used to run into problems with Champ decals, just like you're experiencing.  Usually, when I was trying to decal loco numberboards.  After trial and error, I found that ignoring the instructions about letting the decals float free, and applying them directly from the soaked paper to a Glosscoated surface on the numberboard casting while there was still a slick undercoating, helped a lot.  Then I would flood them with either Microset or DecalSet (Champ's version of the same thing) and letting them dry, then flooding them again about three more times, would usually set them enough that I when finally dry (overnight), I could overspray them with Dullcote and have them stick on permanently. 

The Champ decals are about twice the thickness of the Microscale decals (though I like them better for small detail work), and take a lot more TLC to get 'set' on the surface.   The trick is to apply them from the decal sheet when they're 'sliding' and not floating free. 

Tom  

 

[C&O Fan]

gmcrail

 Snip

  I thjink you may have left out the step which says to overcoat the decals with a clear flat or gloss.

Well there's nothing in the instructions about doing this

 

As one who has made custom decals professionally, I can tell you what the steps should be:

1.  Wash the model carefully with soap (I prefer Dawn dishwashing detergent) and water, using a soft brush  to gently scrub it clean, then rinse thoroughly.

Nope didn't do that 

 

2. Pat dry with tissue, then let the model air dry.  DO NOT TOUCH THE MODEL WITH BARE FINGERS AFTER THIS POINT!  (At least until after step #8.)

The numberboards are not an area you would touch 

3. Spray a gloss finish on the entire model ( some folks will advocate just spraying the area to be decaled, but to ensure a uniform finish, I spray the entire model).  Let dry completely!

 

Nope nothing in the instructions about that either

 

4.   Apply a generous amount of Microscale's Micro Set to the area to be decaled.  At the same time, dip the decal into distilled water long enough to get the paper backing thoroughly wet.  Set the decal aside on a non-porous surface.

Did That !

5. When the decal will slide on the backing, it is ready to apply.  Slide it onto the model and move it into its final position.  Let dry completely.

In the instructions they go to great lengths to tell you you can let it soak as long as you want

and they say if you slide it off the paper too early your results won't be as good

Honest ! 

6.  Very gently apply the setting solution of your choice.  I prefer Walthers Solvaset.  DO NOT touch the decal itself while doing this.  Drag a drop over the surface, replenishing the drop as necessary to get the entire surface of the decal covered.  LET DRY COMPLETELY!  (Overnight is good.)

Did that but i used Microscale's Micro set 

7.  Inspect the decal for whitish areas which indicate that the decal has not settled down completely.  *** these areas very carefully with the tip of a #11 blade or a very sharp pin, the re-apply the setting solution as in step #6.   Again, LET DRY COMPLETELY.  Repeat #6 & #7 as necessary

Didn't need to no white spots.

8.  When again dry, and when no whitish areas are present, you should now overcoat the decals with a sprayed gloss finish.  When that is dry, apply the flat or satin finish of your choice.

Again the instructions say nothing about overspraying with gloss or flat finish

 

Please don't miss understand i'm sure your methods work and i'm more than willing to try them

But the instructions leave out all these things

 

 

 The decals will not come off, even with regular handling.

 

Good luck.

[georgev]

C&O Fan

Well Bob

as per the instructions in the champ package

I painted the area with a small amount of decal set

I soaked the decals in a plate of water and waited till they floated free then

picked the up by the corner with tweezers and applied them

i removed the excess water by touching the decal at the base

with the corner of a paper towel

then let them dry over night

when i touched then the next morning they fell off

A couple of things that may be your problem is leaving the decals in till they float off the paper, and not blotting the decal before applying it as in gmcrail's post, steps 4 and 5.  

I lay the decal, still on the backing, on a paper towel after a soak of maybe 20 seconds.  Without blotting it off, all that water will dilute the decal set.  The smaller the decal, the more water will adhere to it relative to it's size which dilutes the decal solution even more. 

After a shorter soak in the water the decal will still slide off the paper with a little assist from a toothpick, piece of plastic, or a modeling knife.  After the decal is applied you still blot the excess setting solution from under the decal.  

Hope this helps. 

George V.

[stokesda]

C&O Fan

I soaked the decals in a plate of water and waited till they floated free then...

 

If you soaked them long enough for the decal itself to separate from the backing paper, then float around in the water, the adhesive may have washed off the back of the decal. You only need to soak the decal about 10-20 seconds - just long enough to saturate the backing paper with water, but not so long that the decal lifts off of the backing paper. After removing from the water, let it sit for a few seconds, then the decal should be able to slide around on the backing paper. When applying the decal to the model, slide the decal off the backing paper directly onto the surface of the model (I use a toothpick dipped in distilled water to do that).