https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I think it is important to understand also that there are outlets available, i.e., local and national auction sites, online retailers and warehouses, where one can obtain good quality equipment for a relatively low price. With three kids, grandchildren and the usual life expenses, searching for deals (and they are out there) is an essential part of the hobby.
The hobby should be budgeted for, and in that regard, my wife and I budget a certain amount for my work expenses, a slight adjustment above what I may really use. Every dime not put to that end is placed in the MR account. And father's day, birthdays, etc. are all pointed directly to the acquisition of new items. My hobby dealer sees my family members about three times a year. He sees me about 12 times a year.
My layout building goes very slowly, simply because my time and money often get directed to more important projects. But I savor the hobby when I take the time and expend the funds to pursue it.
Building a layout on a budget is a way of life for many, I suspect. And it is not impossible, especially if one chooses to take their time, make smart purchases and use the tricks of the trade that so many modelers who came before us invented and/or applied to their layouts.
One of the most frequently used booksin my arsenal of modeling info is the compilation of "kinks" from old copies of MR.
I think that Mobilman's comment about being content is true as well. Having had the grand system of a lifetime, and now working in less than a third of that space, I find I am quite content with what I have, and that contentment translates into a lot less money being expended.
Hi again!
Having been playing with trains since the '50s, I have sure experienced some very difficult times in having my MR "wants and needs" satisfied. My first Lionel was paid for by my paperboy job (Chicago Herald American), and the layout was sourced from what I could "beg borrow & steal".
I was married young, had 4 children in three years (twins), and finished the last two years of school at night. Believe me, there was very, very little money for trains during that time. Fortunately, as time passed money became more available for MR stuff. Ha, I can recall getting lots of Athearn and MDC car kits and Revell and other structure kits for Christmas/birthdays/Father's Day during the '70s. Those were some of the best gifts I ever got and remember them (and still have most) fondly.
Today I'm retired and happily, money for trains is not a problem. However, I still don't want to go "overboard", and am quite content with Stewart/P2k & Spectrum/BLI locos.
My trains (both building & operating) have been my pacifier during many work years - especially in the '90s and early 2000s. They went a long way in keeping me sane, and its hard to put a pricetag on that.
Oh, one other comment...... I've noticed a trend in younger folks over the last 20 years or so (including my children). Many of them just can't comprehend buying used or accepting "hand me downs". And as a result, I've known a number of young, educated, well paid folks getting very deep into debt - and just totally miserable with their situation.
Hey, ENJOY the Hobby!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Lots of good suggestions and thoughts in this discussion. I just wanted to offer the old maxim that could apply to any hobby:
The only difference between men and boys
is the price of their toys.
I'll start by apologizing for misreading everything here.
I'll also start by stating that I need to learn to write more cohesively.
What I was trying to say had more to do with HOW one deals with the perceived reality that some are experiencing as the hobby becoming very expensive. Instead of saying these things I got into some distractions regarding stuff that I should have stayed out of----
My shortline is approximately 235 miles long--or at least my storyline is sticking to this. My shortline uses actually 18 lokes for the entire line. Much of my surplus therefore is stored either on service tracks to make it look like the service areas are being used or they are out of sight. The same goes for much of my rolling stock. All these pieces were either bought through yard sales or through thrift shops like Goodwill, fleamarkets were some people just dumped whole collections or somesuch. Very few were bought through my FLHS. I would say that I was dang lucky to find these over just the last 2 years. Now, I'm out of the market for more lokes or anything rolling.
As for the scratchbuilding---that's a whole n'other song and dance---
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Model Railroader would love to be seen as the face of our hobby, but it really isn't. Unfortunately, to most in the earlier stages of model railroading, they don't know about the mr hobby universe outside of Model Railroader. Model Railroader uses fairly high standards for its printing, pays its contributors more than any of the other hobby magazines, and charges more for ads than any of the other magazines and outlets. Consequently, only the larger manufacturers advertise in Model Railroader. Many of the smaller shops and manufacturers can't produce or sell enough to justify MR's advertising rates - especially if their product is generally not used by beginners.
How much advertising affects MR's editorial content is speculation, but I'd be naive to think there was absolutely no connection. Also, MR prides itself on showing new ways of doing things. The newest method of benchwork may not have any real advantages for most over the tried-and-true plywood, but there will be articles on it anyway. DCC is pushed - try and find articles in the past 5 years on building a DC throttle or where gaps should go for block control. Yet, DCC is still used on less than 50% of the layouts.
just my thoughts
Fred W
markpierce I believe model railroad products are reasonably priced: they are worth the money. Affordability varies. For example, when my children were born my available discretionary income available for the hobby all but dried up. In contrast, when I retired, even with a 40% drop in income, I found discretionary income rose dramatically because the expense of putting kids through college had ended. Cheapening products such as by lowering the level/accuracy of detail and lessening the quality of drive systems on locomotives would be undesirable. Mark
I believe model railroad products are reasonably priced: they are worth the money.
Affordability varies. For example, when my children were born my available discretionary income available for the hobby all but dried up. In contrast, when I retired, even with a 40% drop in income, I found discretionary income rose dramatically because the expense of putting kids through college had ended.
Cheapening products such as by lowering the level/accuracy of detail and lessening the quality of drive systems on locomotives would be undesirable.
Mark
I agree as to the hobby being reasonably priced overall. As someone who has been in the hobby for 20 years, I can find reasonable values for just about anything I want to buy. There is difference between a life-like gp38 and a p1k gp15 in terms of quality, but not in terms of value, IMO. One is horribly cheap at any price, and the other is way overpriced. A newbie (i.e: a source of future sales) shouldn't be turned off from the hobby by having to buy some el-cheapo product that will fall apart or spend $109 retail for some a warmed over shell and proper gear ratio that he doesn't know/care about yet. He ain't gonna pay $100 for his first locomotive. Won't pay $70 either if he thinks the handrails will break the first time he forgets to pick it up correctly. Newbies are the future.
There is a difference between paying for R&D, tooling, and quality innards, and paying for the labor to apply details. I'd rather do the labor myself and only pay for the things I can't do, like designing and building the motor.
Who makes that simple 1968 chevy impala with crank windows that started every winter and ran forever? Low cost doesn't have to mean low quality, just fewer details.
- Douglas
WaxonWaxov I think some people missed my point. If you buy a brand new $200 loco today, and six months from now you lose you job and start liquidating so you can you know, eat, what would you get that that loco then? Sure more than nothing, but also nothing campared to $200.
I think some people missed my point.
If you buy a brand new $200 loco today, and six months from now you lose you job and start liquidating so you can you know, eat, what would you get that that loco then? Sure more than nothing, but also nothing campared to $200.
So wait six months and buy them used. Oh, snap, that's a practical answer and denies you the chance to complain. Sorry.
WaxonWaxov I think some people missed my point. If you buy a brand new $200 loco today, and six months from now you lose you job and start liquidating so you can you know, eat, what would you get that that loco then? Sure more than nothing, but also nothing campared to $200. Sure, there are people who will spend $200 on a Taylor Swift ticket go to the concert, have a fine time, then go home, never to see that $200 again. My point is that model railroading stuff, as with a lot of other stuff, is something that is rarely sold 'used' for near the price that was paid for 'new' There also comes examples where some 'descretionary money' things are doing well in the economy. For example, the local opera company had better ticket sales this spring than they feared, maybe because people decided they couldn't afford say a weekend in Vegas but they could afford an evening at the opera. So where does that leave model railroaders? Maybe companies like Plastruct will do OK while expensive building kit companies won't.
Sure, there are people who will spend $200 on a Taylor Swift ticket go to the concert, have a fine time, then go home, never to see that $200 again.
My point is that model railroading stuff, as with a lot of other stuff, is something that is rarely sold 'used' for near the price that was paid for 'new'
There also comes examples where some 'descretionary money' things are doing well in the economy. For example, the local opera company had better ticket sales this spring than they feared, maybe because people decided they couldn't afford say a weekend in Vegas but they could afford an evening at the opera.
So where does that leave model railroaders? Maybe companies like Plastruct will do OK while expensive building kit companies won't.
I didn't miss your point at all. But the way I was raised, you don't buy that $200 toy if you don't have a secure enough savings situation for problems like loosing a job. I have spent most of my life self employed, way more risk than loosing a job. People who buy things they can't aford and then have to sell them if times get tough need a good course in economics.
Sheldon
WaxonWaxovI wish I could find some good resources for scratchbuilding. For example, It would bre great to find a way to scratchbuild a fleet of N scale boxcars.
Even if one wants to pay for scratchbuilding materials Michaels has pretty large bags of misc. basswood pieces for $4.
Matt Hankins Because you asked: I put this together BK(before kids) and it has lived in this state of unfinished for several years(note the lack of support for the painter's staging.) It is a mix of kits, kitbashing and scratchbuilding. No coffee stirrers. Matt
Because you asked:
I put this together BK(before kids) and it has lived in this state of unfinished for several years(note the lack of support for the painter's staging.) It is a mix of kits, kitbashing and scratchbuilding. No coffee stirrers.
Matt
MH:
I think that's very well done. A layout or diorama built to those standards, well-lit and well-photographed, would fit perfectly in the train mags. In fact, I would say that your detail placement is highly realistic, better than many of the layouts you've ogled in MR! Every detail I see there looks like it was left there by a scale person, for a reason that was good, at least at the time. That's how detail should look.
Actually, you ought to throw together a little scene with this and snap a picture for Trackside Photos. All you need is a trolley car or something.
ccaranna If my memory serves, there was an article in MRR several (and then some) years back featuring how to build a layout for under $500. I can't recall the issue, but it was well done. I agree, there should be more articles like that, but then again, I am not sure if publishing how to create a model RR out of your trash on a regular basis goes over well with the magazine's sponsors. To which is a shame, since inexpensive how-to articles seems to get people interested in the hobby.
If my memory serves, there was an article in MRR several (and then some) years back featuring how to build a layout for under $500. I can't recall the issue, but it was well done.
I agree, there should be more articles like that, but then again, I am not sure if publishing how to create a model RR out of your trash on a regular basis goes over well with the magazine's sponsors. To which is a shame, since inexpensive how-to articles seems to get people interested in the hobby.
Yes! The manufacturers who tailor their products, and magazine publishers who will tailor their articles, to support present day retail sales are cutting their throats in the long run. A newbie to the hobby isn't going to commit to spending big bucks on products initially. Comparing locos in a LHS, the newbie will likely gravitate towards the lower priced product, being unsure of their ability to determine a better value with the nicer stuff due to their lack of knowledge about the products. Low cost how to articles might get them started in the hobby faster than just requiring them to dump a bunch of money into it. They probably already feel relatively comfortable about the idea of building a model, since they are intersted in the hobby enough to poke around the store or read a magazine
How to build a $500 layout was more like how to buy a $500 layout. Now, $75 dollars for a loco and more money for unitrack cuts into a small budget pretty quickly.
A noob should be able to buy a BB Athearn, with plastic handrails to apply, for less than $40. Skip the other details since they don't know what they are anyway. They would be more willing to get started in the hobby if they were offered low cost options.
A good company like Toyota knows you need to offer somebody the opportunity to buy a Corolla, thinking that they will eventually move up to a Lexus.
The one thing I can say about myself personally is that luckily I stocked up on more kits and projects in the 90s than I can accomplish in 20 years, so the higher prices haven't really affected me, other than I have to show restraint whenever an incredible product is released.
Kid in a candy shop, anyone? Speaking of which, I think many modelers suffer from the "bigger eyes than their stomachs" syndrome.
Aye, aye, Robert! If people spend more time being discontented because they can't afford something the hobby lures them with, rather than finding contentment with what they can get out of it with patience, skill, ingenuity, and determination, I wonder what's in it for them!?
It's a hobby, for crying out loud! There are other hobbies, some costing tens of thousands where others cost a few hundred dollars a year.
There are people who don't have a pot to pee in, or a window to throw it out of!
There is no entitlement. We earn as we can, we share what we must of the proceeds, and if there is anything left, and it is negotiated entirely your way, buy what you can afford. If you want two engines and one costs what you have, maybe settle for used, or make one. It's so simple.
Finally, there is a lot of wisdom in the old saw, "Where there is a will, there is a way."
-Crandell
For me, at least, the answer is simple...I don't look at my hobby as an investment, I look at it as stress relief. It's a way for me to do something productive and get my mind off of the day's troubles.
So putting it like that, model railroading is certainly a lot less expensive than a psychiatrist!
Robert Beaty
The Laughing Hippie
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The CF-7...a waste of a perfectly good F-unit!
Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the
end of your tunnel, Was just a freight train coming
your way. -Metallica, No Leaf Clover
Matt Hankins Perhaps the evolution of Model Railroader Magazine, which is after all largely the face of our hobby, has caused us all to be skewed. The older magazines feature models that look like models. Frank Ellison and John Allen produced fantastic layouts for their time, but they didn't have access to the huge variety of products available today. Now we have the likes of George Sellios and his work that is almost indistinguishable from the real world. I know I cringe when I think of the possibility of photos of my work placed next to his. I wonder whether the readers of MR would poo-poo a model composed of coffee stirrers because they are so used to the highly polished models monthly published in MR? That being said, I have seen some remarkable, completely scratchbuilt models in the pages in MR and maybe the reason for the polishis that the readership has expanded, the submissions have grown and the editors can pick the best of the best for publication. Matt
Perhaps the evolution of Model Railroader Magazine, which is after all largely the face of our hobby, has caused us all to be skewed. The older magazines feature models that look like models. Frank Ellison and John Allen produced fantastic layouts for their time, but they didn't have access to the huge variety of products available today. Now we have the likes of George Sellios and his work that is almost indistinguishable from the real world. I know I cringe when I think of the possibility of photos of my work placed next to his. I wonder whether the readers of MR would poo-poo a model composed of coffee stirrers because they are so used to the highly polished models monthly published in MR? That being said, I have seen some remarkable, completely scratchbuilt models in the pages in MR and maybe the reason for the polishis that the readership has expanded, the submissions have grown and the editors can pick the best of the best for publication.
M:
Good heavens, man! Do you want to set this thread on fire? Cost AND Allen AND Sellios' realism. Oy.
Excuse me while I tape two 10-foot poles together.
A lot of the work in MR is not as special as you might think, but it's well-lit and well-photographed. Often when you see shots of the author, with the layout in the background, the layout looks like good ordinary work. I think you should post some photos of your work here. I would love to see a model made of coffee stirrers. I've seen some before. Didn't Dan Merkel make a bridge that way?
(I don't intend to disparage the skill displayed in MR and RMC with this. I mean that it's not unachievable by the average modeler, and I mean that the photography work is excellent, especially now that MR has been varying the composition and perspective more than they had.)
I am at a point in my life that I spend what I want when I want on MRR. That being said, it can be a little frustrating wanting something and having to work around financial responsibilities in ones younger years. All I can say is tough out the lean years doing without the hobbies if you have to, and when you get to your later years you will be glad you did. When I use to fly R/C planes the cost of transportation to the airfield and back alone was way more than I ever spend on trains. I never think about the money we didn't have when I was a kid as you don't miss what you never had. I do cherish the memories of my dad and I spending hours around the plywood special that had a total of two buildings and one tree. Just my.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Hi!
Like previous posters said, this topic has been hashed a number of times, but it still is a very significant issue to a lot of MRs. As having played with trains since the mid-50s (Lionel, HO, N), built a number of layouts, and spent a lot of money on the hobby over time, I can probably respond as well as anyone.
When I started out with a Lionel layout in the mid-50s, almost all the woodwork and scenic materials were "begged, borrowed, and (I confess) stolen". I scrounged the Chicago alleys for whatever wood and old cans of paint I could find, and my aunt dried coffee grounds to be used for ground cover. The layout grew to 20x8, with one really nice piece of 4x6 plywood "donated" by the City. I believe it said "these road improvements are ........, signed, Mayor Richard J Daley". I painted over that ASAP.
I went into HO as a teen in the early '60s, and thank goodness for Athearn rubber band drive locos and kits. They were affordable, even for my meager minimum wage part time jobs.
As a Father of 4 in the '70s, I had a good job but we were still living "check to check". After the mortgage and necessities there wasn't much left, but the ol Athearn and MDC stuff still were affordable. They made excellent Christmas, birthday, and Father's Day gifts!!!! Yes, there was a lot of brass and other expensive stuff out there, but I could not afford it and made do with what I had - and was thankful.
Today I'm retired, and frankly "money for trains" is not a problem. I do find that I'm quite happy with Stewart and P2K diesels, and BLI & Bachmann steamers and don't want anything more expensive. Frankly, I've got all the stuff I need and want, and am quite happy building a new 11x15 HO layout.
I did make the jump to DCC this year, and spent well over 1K on systems and will spend another 1K on decoders before its over. But even those funds came from Ebay sales during my thinning out and upgrading process.
I guess what I am trying to say is you don't need the best of everything and the most expensive stuff to enjoy this hobby. Frankly I believe you will learn a lot by starting out slow and growing with time. AND, you will more cheaply find out if you really are a model railroader for life, or its just a "phase".
Hey, in any case,
ENJOY!
t
I don´t think that discussions on the cost side of our hobby lead to anywhere meaningful. We are into it because we love it and we spend as much as we can afford, in one way or the other. In the good old days, some stuff was more expensive, some less - so what. Important is, what we get out of it, and that is highly individual, but certainly not directly related to what we spend on our hobby.
This is my very humble opinion!
Autobus Prime Folks: (snip) 2. Looking at MR, I have noticed an interesting thing that never comes up in these discussions, but may be the cause of them all. From the late 80s to the mid 90s, and tapering off until the 2000s RTR boom, this hobby went through a phase when the equipment most people were using was priced far lower than inflation would suggest. A lot of it was produced by long-streamlined processes by companies who had made it for years. For instance, in 1990, the LHS's regular retail for a BB F7 was the equivalent of $33 in today's dollars (and the mailorder houses' price was the equivalent of $26). Practically everybody was using them, too. I'm throwing this out there in hopes I can add something new to the discussion, because it isn't uncommon that a perceived trend lines up with reality, but in a misunderstood way. Any thoughts?
Folks:
(snip)
2. Looking at MR, I have noticed an interesting thing that never comes up in these discussions, but may be the cause of them all. From the late 80s to the mid 90s, and tapering off until the 2000s RTR boom, this hobby went through a phase when the equipment most people were using was priced far lower than inflation would suggest. A lot of it was produced by long-streamlined processes by companies who had made it for years. For instance, in 1990, the LHS's regular retail for a BB F7 was the equivalent of $33 in today's dollars (and the mailorder houses' price was the equivalent of $26). Practically everybody was using them, too.
I'm throwing this out there in hopes I can add something new to the discussion, because it isn't uncommon that a perceived trend lines up with reality, but in a misunderstood way. Any thoughts?
Indeed, A-P, this is a crucial facet that the "the hobby is no more expensive today than in the past" crowd just love to overlook, or deny. I've made this same point a couple times in previous discussions but the sunshine boys are consistantly unwilling to address it.
The fact is that between the mid 1970's and the early 1990's prices in the hobby changed very slowly, in effect making the hobby increasingly more affordable with time relative to personal income. This era was followed by the onset of a dramatic escalating of pricing beginning in the late 1990's unlike anything ever seen in the hobby previously. And it continues down to today, currently making participation in the hobby at the same level as in say 1980 several times more expensive for the average individual. With the way it is going currently, if it doesn't sink the ship outright, instead of model railroaders typically coming from the blue collar segment of society the hobby will become the sole province of the rich in the not very distant future.
CNJ831
Driline Paul3 The cost of an Athearn BB kit today is $7.25-$7.75, MSRP. Back in 1976, how much was it? Paul...4 bucks.
Paul3 The cost of an Athearn BB kit today is $7.25-$7.75, MSRP. Back in 1976, how much was it?
The cost of an Athearn BB kit today is $7.25-$7.75, MSRP. Back in 1976, how much was it?
Paul...4 bucks.
D:
Okay! Here's another good example of what I mentioned. Using AIER's calculator, that equals about $15 today. I'll buy that. Okay, I won't, because I don't buy Athearn kits now, but the point is, it's about right.
But it equals $9.57 in 1991 dollars, and we know the kits weren't that much then! I seem to recall that they were about $6 at the LHS, and $4 from the mailorder houses (I almost said 'online'. )
Interesting, isn't it? You can readily see how this would affect our perceptions, since AthBB was such a major staple then, and how other mfrs tended to emulate their pricing. The only thing I can't fathom is how it happened.
Paul3Doug,We get your point, and yes, comparing a McJob from the mid-1970's to a $35 per hour position today is an error in comparison. However, let's look at minimum wage. In a previous post by Driline, it was listed as $1.85 per hour in 1976 in Iowa. Today, that's $7.50 in the same state. The cost of an Athearn BB kit today is $7.25-$7.75, MSRP. Back in 1976, how much was it?Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Doug,We get your point, and yes, comparing a McJob from the mid-1970's to a $35 per hour position today is an error in comparison.
However, let's look at minimum wage. In a previous post by Driline, it was listed as $1.85 per hour in 1976 in Iowa. Today, that's $7.50 in the same state. The cost of an Athearn BB kit today is $7.25-$7.75, MSRP. Back in 1976, how much was it?Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Edit:: Sorry I was thinking 1986. 1976, I would guess 2 bucks.
I have already made my major point and probably won't participate much, but I can't resist making a few points.
1. If anybody wants to compare prices, the AIER has a cost-of-living calculator that makes a good starting point for discussions. It uses the CPI, and seems pretty reliable. Much better than comparing randomly picked wages.
http://www.aier.org/aier/col.php
(Edit: Athearn in particular seems like the most dramatic example. It almost seems to have followed consumer-product price patterns, where the price is held for long periods by increasing production efficiency and sales volume, and the real cost becomes lower with time. A classic comparison is the model T from its early years until the 1920s.
This seems in-character for Irv Athearn, since he was apparently quite focused on market share, and becoming the industry's "Henry Ford".)
(Edit 2: Campbell kits are another mystery. They seem to have outpaced inflation greatly, comparing adjusted older prices to today. Sales volume? Unusual cost increases? I don't know.)
A hobby - ANY hobby - will cost as much of your discretionary spending funds as you are willing to spend on it, no more, no less. This applies equally to picking up pretty rocks along a wilderness trail and to restoring vintage Auto-Union race cars.
Back when I was supporting a homemaker and two school-age children on a junior sergeant's salary, I had to be very selective in my model railroad purchasing. Fortunately, I had decided what I wanted to model, and the local prices for what I wanted were quite a bit below the equivalent in the United States. Also, since frequent Trans-Pacific moves pretty much eliminated grand-scale layout building as an option, I concentrated on building up my rolling stock roster.
Now I'm fully retired, my kids have had kids (one of whom is expecting my second great-grandson, scheduled to be born on my 72nd birthday!) and I have enough income to justify a lot more outgo in the discretionary area. The dream railroad that will use all of that roster I've accumulated is slowly growing in the garage - slowly due to physiological, not financial, considerations. I've enjoyed model railroading through good times and not-so-good times, and am enjoying it now more than ever.
Looking back, I can say that I never spent a penny more than I could afford.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Paul,
You and hopefully others understood my point, but evidently Barry didn't.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails