Paint Color

[lupo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

Something else that affects the colors used by manufacturers is the quality, or lack thereof, of color film back in the days when the locomotives or rolling stock were photographed. Some color prints fade, and others get dark with age. If the manufacturer used an old color photograph to derive the paint color on a particular model, it is not going to match what another manufacturer might mix and match for a photograph using a different brand of paper, film, or even the developing process.

you mean that the manufacturer use old pictures to duplicate the colors in them without any further research ? isn't that a bit amateuristic? Aren't there any records around from paint manufatures or from RR company records?

BTW the use of old pictures would be a good explanation , or a petty excuse, for the mistakes made.

BTBTW I found this example of (imo) usefull information on colors used:
http://centervilledepot.railfan.net/historicpaintcolors.html
and it includes information on the paint manufacturer and a caution about the accuracy of colors seen on a computer



BTBTBTW: " If a railroad company thinks they have the right to demand extra money for use of their logo etc on my model locomotive and rolling stock I have the right to demand that the logo and colors used are acurate, according to that RR companies standards "

[cacole]

Something else that affects the colors used by manufacturers is the quality, or lack thereof, of color film back in the days when the locomotives or rolling stock were photographed. Some color prints fade, and others get dark with age. If the manufacturer used an old color photograph to derive the paint color on a particular model, it is not going to match what another manufacturer might mix and match for a photograph using a different brand of paper, film, or even the developing process.

[Anonymous]

Does anyone one know of the pantone numbers for the Long Island RR gray? I have a formula for the Floquil line of paints, and the gray is a good match for the early 1960's darker gray. I remember seeing faily new C-Liners and coaches in a much lighter gray and white scheme, so I don't think there had been much fading at that point.

[lupo]

And my point:
No need to develop any new cost-rising railroad orientated color system, there are color matching systems around that kind off "work" the NMRA ( maybe with help from Railroad companies) make a list of "advised railroad colors" by using PMS numbers,
IMO most of RR companies have the logoos made in PMS colors used for printing, because that system is in use in the graphic industrie for ages , so this info must be easy to retrieve.

[michealfarley]

But here's my point......

My P1K RS-11's in Burlington Northern are so off-color. Waaaaaay to dark. No chance in hell of me ever finding a photo of a BN locomotive that matches the color Life-Like used. Such a waste. Could be easily prevented.

[ndbprr]

Next time you look at your pictures of the real thing I think you will find they vary all over the map also. We are getting too obsessive on this business of color. Oxidation, dirt, grease, everything including the amount of light changes the color. Just be glad it isn't blue or pink instead of whatever color is close. Standardized colors? here go the prices again.

[lupo]

Ray:
the point in the PMS system I mentionned is the use of a color reference book:
you can compare the printed color with the desired color, as you look at them next to eachother the used lightsource will influence both colors in the same way, and as all colors have numbers and not names, the interpretation of color by name is also eliminated, I have a simple test for that: show someone al the swatches between blue and green and let them point out what they think is green and what is blue, they all point at a different color swatch. As for fading colors: state the base PMS number and fade to white.
and if a fellow modeller would tell me that the engine's PMS200 (red) faded to PMS 196 (pink) I can see how horrible the result is, just by looking up these numbers in my book ( wich is exactly the same as his ) and I can replicate the color using the recipes also in the book.

BTW the PMS system is an American system using THOUSANDS of color numbers and recipes. so for a wheatered yellow according the PMS system: PMS 109 fading to PMS 106
When you are really interested in this system and for more and better info:

http://www.pantone.com/pantone_v2.asp

[orsonroy]

Wouldn't work. There are too many variables that go into what makes a color look "right". Moisture in the air, natural vs. artificial lighting (and all the sorts of indoor light create different colors!), dust in the air, age of the paint, weathering, distance from the opject in question and your own brain's interpretation of color all dramatically effect color. I've seen Santa Fe engines in the 1980s which had the yellow fade to white! Guess what; that's a "correct" color!

[lupo]

there are some color matching systems around:
in graphics you have the Pantone Matching System, worldwide used and known by
IMO allmost everybody in the graphic business.
Because of opinion differences in color names
- how do YOU think "Sky Blue " looks like ? I bet the sky where you live has a different color as it has overhere -
it uses reference numbers and highly accurate printed books with color swatches
with the recipes to mix them , using a batch of about 9 base colors plus black and transparent, EG: if I ask any printing ink manufacturor for PMS 287, he will come up with
a color similar to the MR magazine blue.
there may be some disadvantages to using this system but in graphics it works very well, world-wide

[mondotrains]

Hi Michael,
I know what you mean and yes, I used to get frustrated also about the differering colors. However, in looking at many railroad books, I've come to realize that the railroads themselves weren't all that consistent about getting the colors right. And, with the variations illustrated in photos caused by weathering and just plain fading, I guess it must be difficult for manufacturers to achieve a "standard". I've come to take pleasure in the different colors offered by the various MR manufacturers and I like seeing a string of different passenger cars produced by various manufacturers with all their variations in color.

Maybe I'm just rationalizing but it's probably better than frustration because I don't think you'll ever see the manufacturers follow a color standard, even if one could be developed.

Regards and I hope you can get happy like I have with the variations.
Mondo

[michealfarley]

Is anyone else frustrated with having multiple manufacturers on your layout, who are all trying to accurately match paint colors, but your P1K RS-11's don't match your Atlas RS-11's, which don't match your older Atlas RS-3's, which don't match.........etc, etc, etc.

What if the NMRA would establish a "Standard Match" for each color in the railroad paint scheme world, that the manufacturers could use, so your Walthers passenger cars would match your Rivarossi passenger cars, which would match your Athearn Genesis F's?