Well the topic was discussed a bit tonight. We will probably start a bit earlier than we are going to be required to. Some of the guys have calmed down a bit...which is a nice change of pace.
Dan
Doug,Is it really necessary for you to post the same 2 Mb's of pictures every time someone mentions Lionel? (and no one mentioned it here except you) There are still a lot of people in the world that don't have broadband internet connections, and a year ago when I was still on dial-up I would have been really ticked to see these 7 pics again for no good reason. It might have been relevant if you had shown one of these engines smoking and indoors, but your showing 7 of them outdoors without smoke. Honestly, what was the point other than to show off what you have?
As for the smoke units in O-gauge...1). They still aren't realistic unless you've got a way for them to emit gray or black smoke. Sure, some steam exhaust would be all white, but that was usually when it was freezing...and the plumes of white smoke would be huge and linger quite a while. No smoke unit that I've ever seen comes close.2). They stink. There is a odor that is not pleasant to smell.3). They make some people's eyes burn, throats get irritated, etc.4). They do leave a residue. It may not be as bad as people think, but it sure doesn't help.
How do I know? Heh. Well, my RR club's layout has been abuilding for the past 10 years now, and over that time we've had our train shows to raise money. When our layout was still inoperable, we would invite a local modular layout to visit in either O or G scale. These guys always like to smoke it up for the 6 or 7 hours of the Open House, and it became unbearable by the time the Open House closed. And we're not in some stagnant basement, we're in a 6300 sq. ft. room with 12' ceilings and 8 ceiling fans running 24/7 with an HVAC blown air system. An example of our layout room: http://www.ssmrc.org/Eric.jpg During these Open Houses, I formed my negative opinion after being around many smoke units for hours at a time. Even tho' I don't own any smoking locos, I think I have enough personal experience to give a qualified opinion on their operation.
But it's not just me. I heard a story about a National NMRA show a few years back where one of the smoking vendors was present (Lionel, MTH, someone like that) at the convention center where the train show was being held. On the first day of the event, the smoke was overpowering to near-by booth staffers from other manufacturers. Complaints to tone it down a little were rebuffed. On the 2nd day, the smoking vendor found that all his smoke fluid was missing (I believe that smoke fluid was found just as the show was ending). Imagine that. How did that smoking vendor manage to lose his smoke fluid for the duration of the show? Hmm... It's one of those unsolved mysteries that will baffle generations... (and no, it wasn't me...I've only been to the Philly '06 NMRA show, and this happened long before then)
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Haven't responded to this thread but here goes. I'm trying to quit smoking for the past 2 years. I did succeed in quitting about 6 years ago by using the inhaler prescribed by my doctor. I had some stressful problems at my place of work and I lit up a cigarette and regretted it since. I retired almost 4 years ago and thought I'll quit when I retire and move. For those who have quit, no matter what happens don't light up, it's far worse trying to quit the second time around, been smoking since I was 14, I'm now 65 and except for the 2 years I didn't. I don't light up in other peoples homes or business's unless they say it's OK. I'm not at the least bit offended by no smoking allowed signs or rules. LOL even I hate the smell of cigarette smoke, even though I smoke.
Smoking in my train room is minimal, you guys are right on the money about tobacco smoke whether it comes from cigarettes, pipe, or cigar. I painted the walls in my house last year and decided to wash them last month, that's just a year ago. I couldn't believe the smoke I took off the walls and ceilings using *** and span. The house has been buttoned up from the cold winter, I love the fresh smell of it when I can open up the windows and doors and get rid of the tobacco odor. I smoked a pipe and went to cigarettes to get off the pipe. Back to the doctor I will be going soon, I have to be in that frame of mind when I really want to quit and can stop for a few hours to a day or two. I succeeded before and know I can but I just need something to get past the craving. The patch didn't work for me nor did the nicotine gum, but the inhaler did and I know it will work when I get my mind set.
I know that tobacco smoke gets on everything including your track work, your buildings, your scenery. all your hard work, don't allow smoking in your train room, you'll never get rid of the smoke stain or the the smell.
Thanks for this thread, you've hit home with me! Jim
challenger3980:
Not being a big steam fan...WOW do those engines look nice. Very impressive.
Anyone ever hear the old saying "Write your Congressman and ask him!" before? I did. Not only did I get a response from both houses (Senate & Assembly in WI) but an answer from both reps and the text of the bill straight from the horses mouths, as it were. The answer is:
Hi Dan, Thanks for contacting me and for your kinds words of support. I am sure there will be many questions regarding the statewide workplace smoking ban and how it will affect the situations such as those you describe for the Oshkosh Model Railroad Club. In the situation you describe, smoking would be prohibited, since the basement is a common area of a multiple unit residential dwelling. It is important to note that the bill will soon be signed into law by Governor Doyle, and has an effective date of July 5, 2010. Per your request, I have attached a pdf copy of the legislation that was passed yesterday by both the Senate and Assembly. The section that relates to your question is page 10, line 9. If you have any additional questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact my office. Sincerely,Gordon HintzState Representative-54th Assembly District
In the situation you describe, smoking would be prohibited, since the basement is a common area of a multiple unit residential dwelling. It is important to note that the bill will soon be signed into law by Governor Doyle, and has an effective date of July 5, 2010.
Per your request, I have attached a pdf copy of the legislation that was passed yesterday by both the Senate and Assembly. The section that relates to your question is page 10, line 9.
If you have any additional questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact my office.
Sincerely,Gordon HintzState Representative-54th Assembly District
We have to wait about a year, but that settles the issue.
Nice fleet.
challenger3980But it seems to be those in the smaller scales that make the vast majority of comments about the "Residue Issue", while those that use it the most almost never seem to make an issue of it at all.
Electrical contact is much more of an issue in HO than it is in O. The wheels are smaller in both width and radius, which leads to greatly reduced contact surface between the rails and the wheels. The trains are also much lighter, resulting in less pressure to ensure good contact. Finally, with shorter wheelbases a "dirty spot" on the track will be a much larger percentage of the overall front-to-back contact dimension in HO.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Jinglerobt Not only do we not allow smoking, the idea of smoke units still raises an occassional eyebrow. The voiced issue is residue on surfaces. My experience in electronics reinforces that view. Good luck, anf hope it works out for the good of the club.
Not only do we not allow smoking, the idea of smoke units still raises an occassional eyebrow. The voiced issue is residue on surfaces. My experience in electronics reinforces that view. Good luck, anf hope it works out for the good of the club.
Sorry, but in my personal opinion, the residue issue is only an issue with those who don't have or use smoking equipment ( it is much easier to criticize that which you don't have). I am a multi-scaler and have a LOT of smoking locomotives (and Cabooses too) in O-Gauge. O-Gauge tends to not only have a higher percentage of equipment that smokes, but also puts out much more smoke than the smaller scales like HO, But it seems to be those in the smaller scales that make the vast majority of comments about the "Residue Issue", while those that use it the most almost never seem to make an issue of it at all.
As for the "Health Issue" of smoking equipment, I am sure that Lance Armstrong never closed himself in a small room with a bunch of Lionel locomotives at full throttle before riding(and winning 7 in a row) any of his Tour d' France races. But I would also say that it is a pretty safe bet that, it is no where near the "Health Issue" that smokers consider an "Acceptable Risk" on a regular basis.
They're NOT your Grandfather's Lionel anymore,
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
I have to share something with you that I saw and observed a few years back, late 1980's to be exact. Some of you know I have been dual career path most of my working days, college was degrees in theology and I pastored small churches until recently, but I also got into the computer craze in the 60's while working for Santa Fe in Topeka to help support my family while at a small country church. From that I spent 1966 through early retirement in 1996 doing computer work/support for Santa Fe and then the Federal Reserve Bank in Kansas City. The Federal Reserve had torn down a four story building next to their building and turned it into a very nice patio/garden area for the employees to take breaks, lunch, etc. Everyone enjoyed it, especially the smokers. Then the Fed jumped on the no smoke band wagon and told employees who smoked they would have to do so in the garden area. They thought that was great until November rolled around. Then there was wailing and gnashing of teeth. Those of us who did not smoke got a great amount of glee over that one, and I think more than one smoker gave it up by February.
Bob
CNW 6000 The point about affecting all workplaces might just include us. We are in the basement of an apartment building, just down the hall from where staff work. In a basic sense...that includes us, correct?
The point about affecting all workplaces might just include us. We are in the basement of an apartment building, just down the hall from where staff work. In a basic sense...that includes us, correct?
Without knowing the details of either the law or your situation, it's hard to say. My guess is that the individual apartments in the same building are not covered, even if the apartment staff has a permanent workspace in the building. If your club is a separate unit, with its own utilities and locked door, then the club would be more like an apartment. If, however, the club is a back room of the office, then the law would probably apply.
Think of the intent of the law. If the apartment building's staff can smell the smoke and they object, then it should be covered. If they walk through your layout room every half hour just "to make sure no one is smoking," they are probably going beyond the intent. Of course, if they walk through just to look at the trains, well, that should be fine with everyone.
Hello I know here in Cleveland you are not allowed to smoke in any public building. And they say you have to be 30' from the door if you what to smoke. Have a nice day Frank
MisterBeasley The state legislatures of Wisconsin and Norh Carolina both passed smoking restriction bills yesterday. The NC one addresses restaurants and bars, and the Wisconsin one affects all workplaces, including restaurants and bars. Both governors have indicated that they will sign the bills. It makes it easier for business owners when the state steps in. Many businesses are afraid of alienating customers, and they don't want to get into the enforcement business when all they really want to do is sell shoes. For bars, in particular, no individual place wants to exclude smokers, because that will drive business away to nearby establishments. When the state puts up the No Smoking signs everywhere, though, then the playing field stays level and places don't lose all that much business. For clubs, my guess is that these laws will not apply. So, your train club will still have to make the decision on its own.
The state legislatures of Wisconsin and Norh Carolina both passed smoking restriction bills yesterday. The NC one addresses restaurants and bars, and the Wisconsin one affects all workplaces, including restaurants and bars. Both governors have indicated that they will sign the bills.
It makes it easier for business owners when the state steps in. Many businesses are afraid of alienating customers, and they don't want to get into the enforcement business when all they really want to do is sell shoes. For bars, in particular, no individual place wants to exclude smokers, because that will drive business away to nearby establishments. When the state puts up the No Smoking signs everywhere, though, then the playing field stays level and places don't lose all that much business.
For clubs, my guess is that these laws will not apply. So, your train club will still have to make the decision on its own.
No Smoking allowed at the place of my layout or anywhere in my home. when I go to see the Northlandz Train Display, it says before you enter NO SMOKING ALLOWED. If you have to smoke then smoke outside. I think in NJ there is no smoking almost anywheres except outside, so, I feel the same way, at least here in the state of endless taxes they at least got that one right
I'm a smoker ... but I do accept and respect the non smoking rules in homes and clubs and businesses . I myself have been in confined spaces where the smoke burned my eyes and was horrible because of crappy ventilation .... I don't agree with the govt. passing laws though ... I think it's up to the business or individual to set those rules ... of course I thought the mandatory seat belt law at 25 mph. areas was infringing on my rights .... highway speeds yes ... city streets ... no . I was up until 2 years ago a harley rider ... mandatory helmet law ... but our state let scooters that coud go 50 + mph. wear none ! Those rules upset me also . The times I quit smoking made me realize the smell and smoke IS annoying and understand those fellows feelings perfectly . All I got from 40 + years of cigarettes was emphasema .... not a pretty ailment ..... take it from someone who knows . Pipe smoke always choked me half to death even when I smoked 2 packs of cigs a day ...
Very interesting thread and the responses were not what I expected.
I think allowing smoking will keep new members out and it will definitely keep out families. Younger people are used to smoking bans so walking into a room with a bunch of people puffing away can be a shocker and turn people off real quick. As a father of small children I would not bring my kids by to that environment.
Here's a personal anecdote. I used to play a game called Warhammer years ago and the local "club" was in this guys basement where we all played where smoking was allowed. I stopped going because I could not stand smelling the smoke all day, my eyes would burn and I got a headache. However it was at the house of a smoker so it was his rules so I just stopped playing with them.
My home layout is not a club in the sense of a communal group in a location, but I have a group in on a regular basis, and I am on tour often. There is a "butt can" at the garage door and it is posted as a smoke free area inside (except for decoders). I have asked people to leave who disregard ovr the years, and most put out their butt and come back in. I had a guy who was a pipe smoker visit one time, no pipe visible at entry point, but he whipped it out in the layout area and lit up. I asked him to leave, he was very upset about his rights, and I reminded him his rights ended when he came through the door with the sign posted.
It is my opinion that smoking is a dirty habit, and I don't like ashes on the layout, but even more a health hazzard and I don't want to be exposed.
maxman CNW 6000The discussion happened. The folks at the club decided not to do anything until the State of WI figures out what it's doing with it's smoking ban. In other words...the 4 smokers got their way and can still smoke. Several non-smokers are now threatening to leave the club. MILW-RODRI can also see how this will go. "Well smokers, they're are more of us non smokies than you, and Doyle is up to his crude, so to make everyone happy you will either have to go outside in the -20 zero windchill and have a cigarette or quite smoking if you want to continue to be apart of this club". Well, here are two different sides to the coin. One individual sort of implies that the club majority are being held hostage by the minority because they got their way and can still smoke. The other individual sort of implies that once the governor(?) gets his way with the law, then the majority will hold the minority hostage by banning smoking. Whatever happened to the idea of democracy, or at least majority vote? Is not your club set up as some sort of democratic organization where a majority vote is required to pass rules, make expenditures, elect officers? Seems to me that the way it should work is that the subject gets brought up at one of the club meetings. A motion gets made and seconded to ban smoking in the clubroom. Then there is a discussion where both sides get to present their argument as to why the motion should get passed or defeated. After everyone gets their say, then a vote occurs, and the members have to live by the rules.
CNW 6000The discussion happened. The folks at the club decided not to do anything until the State of WI figures out what it's doing with it's smoking ban. In other words...the 4 smokers got their way and can still smoke. Several non-smokers are now threatening to leave the club.
MILW-RODRI can also see how this will go. "Well smokers, they're are more of us non smokies than you, and Doyle is up to his crude, so to make everyone happy you will either have to go outside in the -20 zero windchill and have a cigarette or quite smoking if you want to continue to be apart of this club".
Well, here are two different sides to the coin. One individual sort of implies that the club majority are being held hostage by the minority because they got their way and can still smoke. The other individual sort of implies that once the governor(?) gets his way with the law, then the majority will hold the minority hostage by banning smoking.
Whatever happened to the idea of democracy, or at least majority vote? Is not your club set up as some sort of democratic organization where a majority vote is required to pass rules, make expenditures, elect officers? Seems to me that the way it should work is that the subject gets brought up at one of the club meetings. A motion gets made and seconded to ban smoking in the clubroom. Then there is a discussion where both sides get to present their argument as to why the motion should get passed or defeated. After everyone gets their say, then a vote occurs, and the members have to live by the rules.
We did bring up a motion, it was shot down because not enough non-smokers decided to attend. So we have to live with it for now.
After visiting this thread again, it makes me glad I live in a state that has eliminated smoking from almost all public places. It sure helps to eliminate some of the headaches mentioned in this thread. As far as I know, not one bar closed its doors when smoking was banned in those establishments even though the smoking interests claimed that would be the case.
As for my club, we are tobacco free due to the fact that our layout is in a building owned by the city. We have several junior members under the age of 18 and their young lungs are benefiting from not being exposed to an unecessary risk. Any member at my club wishing to smoke is welcome to step outside and away from the building where the chance of inhaling their second-hand smoke is insignificant.
It's too bad that there are a few remaining holdouts who feel their rights as smokers outweigh those that have quit or better yet never started.
Theres No Smoking in the house, so theres No Smoking at the Layout either. Having relatives suffering smoking related illnesses and even dieing from smoking related cancer I will never smoke and think anyone who does is completely insane, but to each there own.
Have fun with your trains
MILW-RODRThe discussion happened. The folks at the club decided not to do anything until the State of WI figures out what it's doing with it's smoking ban. In other words...the 4 smokers got their way and can still smoke. Several non-smokers are now threatening to leave the club.
For whatever it's worth, the club to which I belong went through this banning smoking thing. One of the biggest opponents to the ban was the member, now deceased, with emphysema who came down to the club and smoked and had to put his oxygen bottle aside while doing so. Even after we passed the no smoking rule, some members still smoked in the clubroom. It finally got to the point where the non-smoking members had to take a stand and become insistent. It was a little ugly for awhile, but eventually everyone got used to the clean air and the smokers did their thing outside.
Dan's point about attracting and keeping members is an important one. I'm not in a club, but I could see myself joining one in the future. I find smoke unpleasant. For me, smoking in the club would probably be a deal-breaker. At this point, I think the numbers favor smoke-free clubs.
Our swim and tennis club voted to go smoke-free last year. Even in the People's Republic of Massachusetts, the government did not have the authority to make this decision, but as a private club we chose to make it for ourselves, including not just the buildings but the entire club grounds. I think you'll find that MR clubs are probably in the same position.
For your reference I did not "start with political crap" as you allude to. That rant, as you call it, was of your own creation but I will respond (briefly) to it. I find your sentiment quite irrational and rude, that I dare ask to be able to breathe fresh air while at my place of employment (I'll get to the club in a moment). What your're saying is that people should be able to do anything they want, wherever they want either while at work or at someone elses work place. So if you drive for a living, for example, is it your "right" (just as above) to drink alcohol at work? After all, why should you be inconvenienced by not being able to drink? I'm leaving my response back to you at that, and if you want further disussion with me on this: PM or email me and I'll be glad to discuss it with you.
As to the club, we are not a workplace so I don't see how the proposed state ban applies to us. We are a private entity that can enact our own bylaws and norms, so if a majority of us decide to create a rule for whatever purpose we can. We can also remove rules for certain things just as easily as we have done. Personally, I don't smoke. I don't "hate" those that do. You want to do that go right ahead. If I have a choice in being around you indoors, I will probably choose to go elsewhere depending on the situation. If I have to tolerate being around smokers to paticipate in a hobby that's important to me I will probably choose to. It's not a personal attack and some smokers I have talked with take this as an affront to their person. As I said...way back on this thread...this was about concern for the club, not a personal agenda of mine. I have had prospective members and guests come to me and say "I'd/We'd join, but you allow smoking" and to me that's a dollars and cents issue. To date (I kept a record) there have been 19 people that have said that phrase to me. At our membership rates ($10/mth full and $6/mth associate) that is between $116 and $190 per month of lost membership revenue that we could use to put towards improving the club/layout/etc.
CNW 6000 The discussion happened. The folks at the club decided not to do anything until the State of WI figures out what it's doing with it's smoking ban. In other words...the 4 smokers got their way and can still smoke. Several non-smokers are now threatening to leave the club. This is starting to turn ugly.
The discussion happened. The folks at the club decided not to do anything until the State of WI figures out what it's doing with it's smoking ban. In other words...the 4 smokers got their way and can still smoke. Several non-smokers are now threatening to leave the club. This is starting to turn ugly.
Don't worry stupid Doyle will get his stupid way. For some stupid reason he thinks by passing this stupid no-public smoking law WI people will be healthier. Yea untill all the quiters realize how much more money they will have from not smoking and go out and eat more cheese, drink more beer, and nearly double their cholestoral intake. Doyle's a flippin idiot. I mean come on, banning smoking in BARS????? Yeah lets ban smoking in traditional smoking places, lets make it harder for smokers to afford smoking, that's really going to help our economy problem. I don't smoke now, thanks to stupid Doyle constantly saying "smokers can't smoke here" and "lets up the tax so its $20 bucks a pack" and no one wanting to hire with the economy I had to quite, but when he started his rampage of idiocy I did smoke. If I could just find that dang petition to kick his butt out.......
I can also see how this will go. "Well smokers, they're are more of us non smokies than you, and Doyle is up to his crude, so to make everyone happy you will either have to go outside in the -20 zero windchill and have a cigarette or quite smoking if you want to continue to be apart of this club".
If we live in a country with a government that is supposeldy for the people, ran by the people, and stands for nothing but freedom, then are we all told what to do, when we can do it, and in some cases how we have to do it, by a bunch of old wind bags sitting in expensive chairs in fancy buildings that for some reason the people of the nation can't see. Ya know what my taxes helped pay for that dang carpet in the oval office I think I have a right to go walk on.
I'm done with my rant, I apologize for it, I do not however apologize for making anyone angry by what I have said, I will swear to watch myself in the future as not to get so off subject, and for future referrence don't start with political crap when I'm around. I'm not afraid to clonk someone on the head to see the truth.
Beer at the club? I don't think anyone has ever tried it that I'm aware of. However, that's another topic for another thread IMO.
I hate the smell of tobacco smoke. I watched my Dad die of cancer at 56. In my family, there's about a 15-20 year difference in length-of-life between smokers and non-smokers. To me, it's pretty obvious that I shouldn't smoke, either by myself or through the efforts of others.
Still, I support your right to smoke if you want to. I don't want to inhale it, and I don't want to pay for your extra health-care costs, but other than that, go ahead. It's none of my business. Really.
Graffen P.S I live in Sweden where it is not allowed to smoke in public places and guns are almost banned. A bit like Canada .
P.S I live in Sweden where it is not allowed to smoke in public places and guns are almost banned. A bit like Canada .
A bit like Canada, eh? No thanks. I don't want a government that over-taxes beer the way they do in the Great White North. Y'see, if they get their way with tobacco, the next thing that crowd will go after is alcohol. They're already putting the squeeze on the burgers 'n' fries industry.
So, do your clubs allow beer? There's a difference, of course. Beer, when used as intended, doesn't leave a residue on the track, although in a pinch you might be able to use it for a wetting agent when ballasting.
It is obvious that P-M and Marlboro didn´t lobby as good as the weapons-industry, considering that it is believed more dangerous to second hand smoke VS being on the other side of a gun.
This is NOT meant as a start of a new bonfire in this thread, but merely as an example of how opinions can differ!
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The guy who stormed out came back and we look to be able to discuss it civilly at the next business meeting. I visited another club SW of us (Ripon, WI) and they already decided this issue: No Smoking. We also are considering another issue: insurance. I wonder if we can get a slightly better rate down there if we don't allow smoking.
Left Coast Rail The government can always find a new source of revenue once one dries up.
I'll agree with you 100% on that...and it's sad that it's so true. So many "vices" to tax...so many behaviors to modify.
I'll stop here.
Chris
The Cedar cRapids Industrial Branch: Proudly Shipping Yesterday's CrunchBerries Tomorrow!