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Just what does Proto mean by "Limited Edition"

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Just what does Proto mean by "Limited Edition"
Posted by OntarioTodd on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:30 PM

 I have a couple of Proto 2000 locomotives as well as a tank car. They all say "Limited Edition" on the box. Are they one of 500, 1000, 25000?? Enquiring minds want to know!

 

  Todd

 

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Posted by CAZEPHYR on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:59 PM

OntarioTodd

 I have a couple of Proto 2000 locomotives as well as a tank car. They all say "Limited Edition" on the box. Are they one of 500, 1000, 25000?? Enquiring minds want to know!

 

  Todd

 

Most HO items are limited edition in the sense they are not available after the first or second run and each new run might have different numbers or a different era paint scheme.  The old Athearn used to continue running the same cars and were considered the bread and butter items for the LHS for many years. 

Some HO items are labeled "Limited Edition"  and they run a certain number but the quantity is not usually common knowledge to the public.  One of the train sets have announced recently they are only making 2000 sets available.  This would fall under the "Limited Edition" type of production.   That number still is fairly high if you consider that not every one wants a complete train set of passenger cars and the cost is very expensive so even 2000 might not be sold very quickly.

To me, the name seems to be used to get everyone to reserve their models ahead of time so they will not miss out.  Limited Edition also can be rerun again if the demand is great and the money is good.  

CZ 

 

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Posted by Paul3 on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:05 PM

We'll probably never know for sure.  Production runs are a closely held secret in the biz.

What "Limited Run" means in P2K parlance is that it's a batch production.  They make X amount of items, and sell them ASAP.  If it sells very well, they may run them again in a different batch, and they will probably print different road numbers at the very least.

This is compared to the old days of model production where a company would design a model and produce it continuously enough so that it would always be available to the public.  This was rare, BTW.  Athearn has pretty much always been a batch producer, they just used to make larger batches.

If I had to guess, I'd say that at the very least that runs are at least 5000 units.  I had a new manufacturer complaining to me that he was unable to get a new loco to market because the Chinese firm raised the minimum to 5000 units and that he just didn't have the cash.  Now, he may have been exaggerating, but he had no reason to lie to me.

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Posted by ICRR1964 on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:05 PM

 When The P2K's first came out with the GP7's they were run in Limited Edition. I bought several in the IC road with different road numbers, as I remember they produced 4 or 6 different road numbers, then they moved to the GP9's then and did the same thing. They did this through different phase runs. As others stated, they never released how many were in each batch, so this kind of makes them sort of collectible in a way. Not so much the money worth right now, maybe later.

As you have seen and heard Athearn made huge amounts of some engines like the GP7 aka GP9. I would love to see the number of these they produced in the SP, ATSF, and B & O. Some had different road numbers. But from the beginning to the present it would have to be a large number that were produced by Athearn. Now like the original Athearn GP30 they hadin the early 1960's, these were only around for about 4 years. Then the dies they were using got damaged, so they retooled and went to the GP35 and produced a ton of those.  

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Posted by Paul3 on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 10:24 PM

From what I heard, the original GP30 tooling wasn't damaged.  It was deliberately used to create another model, and thus was "destroyed", in a manner of speaking.

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Posted by aloco on Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:12 AM

I think you guys are missing the big picture.   What has really happened is that companies like Athearn, Atlas, and Life-Like have switched from mass production to just-in-time production.

Mass production is based on economies of scale.  Larger batches have to be produced to keep unit costs down, and product lines don't change often.  This is what Athearn did with their blue box line of locos and cars, and Life-Like and Bachmann did the same with their train set quality equipment.  Pros: equipment is fairly affordable and easy to get.  Cons: product lines stay the same for many years and the varieties of paint schemes and road numbers are limited.

Just in time production involves more frequent changes in product lines, such as new paint schemes, different road numbers, new body shells that fit on similar chassis, etc.   Production runs are smaller and unit costs are higher, hence the 'limited edition' factor.  Even an undecorated loco is counted as a 'limited edition'.   Pros: greater variety of equipment and paint schemes.  Cons: equipment is more expensive and there is a greater risk of missing out on the chance to buy the loco or car you want when batches are small and sell out quickly.

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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Thursday, March 26, 2009 4:06 AM

Limited Edition doesn't have any accepted meaning across manufacturers.  Mostly, it seems to me to be advertsing hype right along with "value priced", "quality", etc.  If it sells well the manufacturer will run off another batch, if it doesn't, it won't.   

Case in point is Showcase Line's USRA hoppers.  They aren't advertised as limited, but many road names are run once and not repeated.  Popular road names are run a 2nd or 3rd time.  For some reason Waddell Coal is really hot and they are taking pre orders for a 4th run.

Enjoy

Paul

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:28 AM

I'm a natural-born cynic anyway, but I think "Limited Edition" is nothing more than advertising hype.  In this hobby, all production runs are relatively small.  The market isn't there for millions of anything, with the possible exception of rail joiners.

"Limited Edition" lets them keep charging MSRP.  It suggests that the models won't be around long enough to get to discounters like Trainworld, and you'd better buy them now.  If you really have to have it, then maybe you should buy it now.  Some items, whether marked "Limited Edition" or not, are only available for a few months.  Or, you can take your chances and wait for a lower price.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by ndbprr on Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:01 AM

To my way of thinking limited edition is a synonym for, "Buy all these so we are sure we make money and don't have to carry inventory".  This is usually followed by, " due to popular demand we are producing a second run".

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Posted by jrbernier on Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:18 AM

aloco

I think you guys are missing the big picture.   What has really happened is that companies like Athearn, Atlas, and Life-Like have switched from mass production to just-in-time production.

Mass production is based on economies of scale.  Larger batches have to be produced to keep unit costs down, and product lines don't change often.  This is what Athearn did with their blue box line of locos and cars, and Life-Like and Bachmann did the same with their train set quality equipment.  Pros: equipment is fairly affordable and easy to get.  Cons: product lines stay the same for many years and the varieties of paint schemes and road numbers are limited.

Just in time production involves more frequent changes in product lines, such as new paint schemes, different road numbers, new body shells that fit on similar chassis, etc.   Production runs are smaller and unit costs are higher, hence the 'limited edition' factor.  Even an undecorated loco is counted as a 'limited edition'.   Pros: greater variety of equipment and paint schemes.  Cons: equipment is more expensive and there is a greater risk of missing out on the chance to buy the loco or car you want when batches are small and sell out quickly.

  There is no mass production vs just in time production here.  Even older Athearn BB items were produced in 'batches'  An example would be the RDC cars - it might be 3 years before they would produce them again, and they got in rather short supply at the LHS.

  Current production of most 'scale' train items is done in batches, with smaller runs of individual road numbers/paint schemes.  There is no real 'just in time' production - some 'assemble as orders' come in(like some laser kits).  One does not see a semi load or hot 'Ford Fast' train running overnight to keep the model train assembly lines in operation!

Jim

Modeling BNSF  and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin

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Posted by mobilman44 on Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:26 AM

Hi!

I too have a number of the P2K Limited Edition locos, and a few of the cars.  IMHO, P2Ks definition of "Limited Edition" means that there are no plans to run that model after the initial run (or runs). 

I suspect they are fairly honest about this, and frankly it works on me - for I pre-ordered most of the locos to make sure I got them. 

Oh, one other thing I noticed....... the Limited Edition locos seem to be more friendly to the addition of decoders - as opposed to the regular issue locos. 

Again, the above is my opinion - and that sure doesn't mean its fact.

ENJOY,

Mobilman44

ENJOY  !

 

Mobilman44

 

Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central 

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Posted by lvanhen on Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:56 AM

"Limited Edition" is the rr hobby's equivilent of "Collector's Edition" used on dolls, mugs, pins, and anything else someone wants to "push"!!

As Antiques Roadshow often says, "If it sold as a collectable, it probably isn't"!!!Dead

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Posted by armchair on Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:27 PM

 Proaboly just hype. I looked at all My P2K Loco boxes & they all have limited edition. The cars didn't have this on them. You do raise another point in the fact that most of the Manufacturers (or importers ?) are trying to sell products by advance reservations. This is most likely not going to be good for our hobby in the long run because if enough are not pre-ordered they will most likely not be produced. Companies don't want a huge inventory of models around that aren't moving. With the world Economic state I can't blame them. I'm willing to wait & try to get something I need (want)after the initial feeding frenzy has died down,but I really don't need anymore locos anyway.But, if I see one I want,reasonable priced................

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Posted by Paul3 on Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:49 PM

aloco,
Um, sorry, but no.  Athearn has always had batch production runs.  It's just that in the old days, the batches were much larger.  How do I know this?  You could not find an Athearn RDC or a 200ton crane in 1990.  Yet just a few years later, you could find them just about everywhere.  Same goes for a lot of their "fringe" models like Hustlers and other oddballs.

Also, "Just In Time" (JIT) production has absolutely nothing to do with this hobby, at least as far as we modelers are concerned.  JIT refers to the removal of as much warehousing as possible during the making of products.  In the old days, a company like Maytag would stock sheetmetal in the warehouse to protect their production line against delays in shipments caused by accidents, disasters, strikes, etc.  Gov't taxes on warehousing (and other expenses associated with it) prompted companies to restrict material storage to what they need at that moment.  This material would arrive "just in time".  Therefore, if there is any hiccup in the supply, the production line stops and people are laid off until they have the materials again.

What we have here is a smaller batch production than in the past, AKA: "Limited Run".

Other than that, your premise is correct.  Larger batch productions = lower costs and stagnant product lines that are slow to improve (molded on grabs, no sound, no road specific details, only one number per paint job, etc.).  Smaller batch productions = higher costs and diverse product lines that are quick to improve (seperate grabs, sound, road specific details, multiple numbers per paint scheme).

I prefer Limited Runs because I get better running, more accurate models in multiple numbers in better paint schemes on engines I never thought I'd ever see in plastic (DL-109's come to mind).

MisterBeasley,
I know at least some things are truly Limited Editions.  My club does custom painted cars from various manufacturers like Atlas, Athearn, Accurail, etc.  At the most, we only do 500 cars.  Once they are gone, they are gone forever as we refuse to re-run a car without someone else paying for it.  Since that's not going to happen, I don't think we have to worry about it.

Paul A. Cutler III
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Posted by Last Chance on Thursday, March 26, 2009 2:13 PM

Limited Edition = Fish Chum Bait in the waters.

 

I just wait until they belly up onto Ebay 6 months or more later for a lower price.

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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:46 PM

Limited Edition or not,  I sure wish that Walthers would produce the P1K RDCs again!

"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"

 


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Posted by Pathfinder on Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:02 PM

 I have several P1000 C Liners.  I pulled out one of the boxes, for No. 4053, in CP script.  On  the box end it has a sticker saying "95 of 288".  To me, that is a "limited edition" even though the box does not say that.

So I guess the production run for that no. and paint scheme was 288?

 

 

Keep on Trucking, By Train! Where I Live: BC Hobbies: Model Railroading (HO): CP in the 70's in BC and logging in BC
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Posted by BumpyJack68 on Saturday, May 14, 2022 6:11 PM

To me limited edition P2K means the loco is DCC ready, DCC on board, DCC sound on board. $.02

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Posted by PRR8259 on Saturday, May 14, 2022 6:24 PM

Limited Production is factually that.  Numbers are limited.  It has nothing to do with plain dc, dcc and sound or whatever, but the numbers are now limited to what was pre-ordered plus a small percentage extra.

Research has shown (thank you Pacific Western Rail for the research) that if the item is not sold out at the importer within 3 weeks of arrival in the US, that the remaining inventory is "dead" ie virtually never sells.  What generally happens is any small extra overage in quantity is in reality sold before the items hit the US.  The remaining handful of units, if any, can take years to sell. (Especially true of Bowser SCL Alco C-430's--they were junked and stripped for parts.  Very few ever sold.)  The 7 or so big distributors remaining are basically gambling how many they can sell, and they may have some in stock for months if they guess wrong.

The manufacturer/importer builds very little extra for stock.  I have a Bowser engine (an SD40-2 with dcc and sound) that they actually told me, when I asked, was 1 of 53 made.  The pre-orders were for 47 or 48 units; they made 5 extra for stock, and by the time it was in the US, all were sold and I got the very last one (I called the day before they arrived at Bowser and said I wanted one).  There were also about the same number in plain dc, for a total of 106 units.  They subsequently did a second SD40-2 with a longer nose, in the same paint scheme, also one road number--in a later run.

So today's minimum build quantities, at least for Bowser SD40-2's, are approximately 50 units of one unique item number, and 100 or so between plain dc and dcc/sound of the same unique road number, with any split in numbers definitely favoring dcc/sound.

I know if it's a hot item, for Bowser it can be several hundred units of one item number, but the days of "thousands" of a given item number are long gone.  It is a smaller hobby than one might think.

Before anyone chooses to bemoan this system, there were days years ago during the 1980's that everybody actually had Kato or Atlas or LL Proto 2000 engines in stock in a warehouse--and they had to take out bank loans just to pay for inventory sitting on the shelves.  Bowser actually had a distributorship for many product lines, and when a new truckload of engines came in, they had to get an additional line of credit to cover the invoice (I was one of several unloading the trucks then).  Eventually Bowser's owners, and everybody else, figured out this was a total waste of money.  Now trains are built to pre-order plus a very small percentage.  This is because a few of this loco and a few of that quickly becomes a million dollar line of credit.  Nobody can really afford those huge lines of credit anymore.

Bachmann and LifeLike/Proto 2000 also did do some large one time runs, but then spent many years selling off the product, and eventually dumping some at huge discounts undermining all the dealers who had already purchased them at the standard discount prices.  Some folks I know personally gambled on the LifeLike Proto 2000 Northeastern Caboose, and had case lots of them in stock for 10 years after production.  "They chose...poorly".

John

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Posted by maxman on Saturday, May 14, 2022 6:58 PM

13 year old thread.

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Posted by hjQi on Saturday, May 14, 2022 10:19 PM

It is just a marketing strategy.... I would buy because of other reasons, but not limited edition....

Jerry

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Posted by rrebell on Sunday, May 15, 2022 9:06 AM

There is more going on than you think with discounters agreeing to buy excess in some cases to make the runs more profitable.

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Posted by cv_acr on Tuesday, May 17, 2022 3:23 PM

BumpyJack68

To me limited edition P2K means the loco is DCC ready, DCC on board, DCC sound on board. $.02

Wow.

Not only did you reply to a long-dead 13 year old thread that really didn't need replying to, you gave a totally wrong answer.

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