kf4mattatansCan you imagine how small the bulb would be on a marker lamp, in this day and age they can't seem to make scale street or building lights, some other method of transferring light will have to be used. Not sure I follow you...... They have grain of rice lights (size) and surface mount LED's that would fill the bill perfectly. My guess would be that the MFG's just don't see the need, or they would raise the cost $$$$$ to cover the price of a $.01 lamp or LED. Tom
tatansCan you imagine how small the bulb would be on a marker lamp, in this day and age they can't seem to make scale street or building lights, some other method of transferring light will have to be used.
Can you imagine how small the bulb would be on a marker lamp, in this day and age they can't seem to make scale street or building lights, some other method of transferring light will have to be used.
Agreed. The 1.2mm Miniatronics incandescent bulbs look very realistic and prototypical for a standard HO-scale exterior lamp. The downside to them is that they are only rated at 500-1,000 hrs. and the inconsistency in bulb fabrication makes some diffuse the light worse than average.
Lighting them at 50-60% power does prolong their life.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I have been pleased with the Tomar Adlake marker lights for rear of train and like them on a heavyweight observation car. It would be good to have inexpensive Adlake markers that are not lighted that can easily be moved from one passenger car to another.
These are included with HO passenger cars made by Rapido. If the last car on my train happens to be a Rapido built car, I have markers for it.
I would like it if Rapido sold their markers in bulk quantities without buying the whole passenger car.
It was good of John to post the link below for the lighted markers and class lights. I had not seen those before.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
tatans I just checked the marker lights on my brass berkshire and there is no possible way way a light of any kond would fit in the hole, it is almost microscopic. rice lights are about 5 times too large, I dont know what the answer is for lights that small.
Again, fiber optics are that small. You can have them as thin as a hair. We use them all the time where I work. The problem becomes bending radius.
You can use a fiber optic strand feeding into a light pipe. This would take care of the radius issue. The light pipe is in the shape of the entire marker lamp. Next step is to paint over the light pipe (everything except the lenses). They don't have to be blinding bright. Marker lamps just bright enough to tell they are lit. Problem solved.
The question is, how much are you willing to pay for this "modeling detail?"
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
kf4mattatans Ca Not sure I follow you...... They have grain of rice lights (size) and surface mount LED's that would fill the bill perfectly. My guess would be that the MFG's just don't see the need, or they would raise the cost $$$$$ to cover the price of a $.01 lamp or LED. Tom
tatans Ca
Ca
I just checked the marker lights on my brass berkshire and there is no possible way way a light of any kond would fit in the hole, it is almost microscopic. rice lights are about 5 times too large, I dont know what the answer is for lights that small.
Paul3Electric class lights on steamers are either white or green, and only have two lenses showing to the front and one side. They don't show to the rear as it would blind the crew. They change color by having a green colored filter swing internally over the clear lenses. They denote whether the train is an extra or has a section following.
You could led a fiber optic line from the LED to the marker lamp.
Green and white would be no issue for a full spectrum multi color led. (1 led lamp produces white, red, green, aqua, blue, yellow, and purple.) But they are $$. Like $3 each. And they require a small computer chip. To change them you would have to flip some switch, or get a DCC controller to do it.
Paul--
You're right of course. Just going by what Great-Uncle Tom called them when he was a fireman pushing trains over the "Hill" out of Truckee in his trusty AC-6.. But then, he also called two or more cabooses "Cabeese," so he had his own vernacular on the subject, LOL!
But to get back onto the subject: with the micro-lenses available now in the hobby, it would sure be nice to see some of the current manufacturers include lit classification lamps on their steamers. I know that my PSC steamer gets quite a few comments when I run it.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
onequiknovaThis guy used surface mount LED's in cored out marker lights. It's a nice effect, but they don't change color. http://markschutzer.com/Markers/Marker_page1.htm
http://markschutzer.com/Markers/Marker_page1.htm
This is an interesting thread. I've used the idea with SMD LED's with my European engine ELNA. I've used about 20 LED's for six lamps.
Wolfgang
Pueblo & Salt Lake RR
Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de my videos my blog
That link is great John, thanks!
I wonder how one would make the bulbs red or green, without painting or coloring them with markers. Any ideas out there anyone?
Also, going off my original topic, but I am really interested in lighted cab interiors and and such, MTH has some, they look great!
But I heard installing cab lights inside BLI steamers can be quite the advanced undertaking.
Any information about interior cab lighting in HO out there? Thanks in advance to those that can tell me a lot about such locos and the process involved in the installation.
Tom,Class lights are not markers, and markers are not class lights. That applies to every US road in the 20th Century that I've ever heard of.
Electric class lights on steamers are either white or green, and only have two lenses showing to the front and one side. They don't show to the rear as it would blind the crew. They change color by having a green colored filter swing internally over the clear lenses. They denote whether the train is an extra or has a section following.
Oil-burning Markers usually have 4 lenses in red, green or yellow (2 of red, the other 2 green/yellow). They can either rotate or be moved so that either color will show to the rear. They denote if it's a train or just a string of cars or engines, and if a train is in the clear.
Other than them both being lights that change colors, they are otherwise completely different. It's like saying that diesels and steamers are the same because they are both locomotives.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
This guy used surface mount LED's in cored out marker lights. It's a nice effect, but they don't change color.
John
while we are on the subject, maybe some of you ATSF fans can enlighten me on this. it seems that years ago inbound passenger trains were pulled backwards out of the station in Chicago by a yard job back to the coach yard. i vaguely remember the inbound power was still attached and displayed red flags or lights on the front of what had been the lead unit inbound. i never saw red flags or lights on the front of the lead units except while making this reverse movement. any of you old timers remember this??
grizlump
Paul, thanks very much for clearing that up, very informative.
I have one steamer with lit classification/marker/whatever you want to call it lights the front of the boiler. The little ones on either side of the boiler top, whatever they're being called these days. When my Uncle Tom worked for the SP in Truckee, back in the 'forties, they were called MARKER LAMPS. Same things as the ones on the Cabeese.
Anyhoo--exactly HOW the lamps on the boiler front of my HO scale PSC brass Rio Grande F-81 2-10-2 are lit, I couldn't tell you, since getting into the locomotive seems to be a secret only known to PSC, the State Department, or possibly NCIS.
But hoo-boy, does it look GOOD! If I ever find out, every other brass steamer I own is going to have them, LOL. I'd say that Tomar just might come up with the answer. If they can light those little-bitty lamps in their semaphore signals, they can sure come up with a way to get into a marker light.
Okay, let's clear something up (as Chuck was talking about):Markers are used at the end of trains, and in fact are part of the definition of a "train". Most rulebooks of the 20th Century describe a train as one or more locomotives with or without cars displaying markers. Markers (which can be mounted on cabooses, passenger cars, or engines) are usually red and either green or yellow (depending on the road: PRR was red/green, NH was red/yellow). When running, red is displayed to the rear, and green/yellow is displayed to the front and sides. When in a siding, the marker nearest the clear mainline track is turned so that yellow faces the rear while the other remains red. This indicates to following trains that the train ahead is in the clear.
Classification lights or flags are used on the front of locomotives only. These indicate extras (white) or 2nd section (green). These are for Operators and other crews. The indication of the 2nd Section means that there is another train following this one and running on the same authority, while the extra means a non-timetable train.
Now that we've got that mostly squared away, the first pic in this thread is wrong. The PRR steamer is displaying a red marker on the rear of the tender, and hauling a train at the same time. This is not prototypical operation. The red lights should be on the last car only. Using them in any other place is against the rulebook, and wasteful of fuel or electricity.
Red markers on the rear of steam engines were rarely used. Only if the loco was pushing or running light would they get used.BTW, the Atlas H16-44 has working marker/class lights...sort of. They are either red or green (or off). When on, red shows on the rear, and green to the front. That's great if you're running a light engine with a 2nd section following (has that ever happened?), but otherwise it's a waste of money.
Oh, and one could always add working markers to your own caboose: http://www.tomarindustries.com/acc.htm
CZ, those are excellent pictures, thanks.
It is a shame that BLI removed the light from the number boards on their big boy, as I recall they used to have red marker lamps on the tender of that model too.
Athearn has some nice lit number boards on some of their steamers, I'm looking into getting some of those models, nice quality work, no disrespect to BLI either, they have made excellent contributions to this hobby as well.
I hope MTH keeps up the good work in HO, I am really impressed with the look of their erie triplex and their mikado. I think they just came out with a N&W class J with green marker lights, but they are so tiny you can't even see them (not that to say that in itself isn't prototypical on that particular engine).
MTH needs to expand their work in HO, it would be great to see them release the pennsy t1 duplex, the s1 would be a dream come true, but I guess that is asking too much. I really don't ever want to have to get the old brass S1, if I wanted to spend that kind of money I might as well just go lionel which comes with the puffing smoke, marker lamps and all...just a tad bit too big for my home.
Anybody know if the new BLI paragon 2 hudson has operating markers? It just seems like a waste to put so much effort into installing farm sounds in the new models (never cared for these new features) without updating the marker lamps...I have to admit, I am a little biased in this area. I bought a BLI blueline N&W class A 2-6-6-4 recently, and it looks like the fake plastic marker light simply 'fell off' during shipping, I couldn't find it in the box anywhere though, I paid a lot for the engine and I just wish the things were lit and were somewhat sturdy, but you can't have it all I guess. BLI promptly sent me the new plastic marker free of charge, so they are great in their service, I shouldn't leave that out.
Note that, operating under TTTO, a train operating on its own timetable authority would have the clasification lamps dark. A leading section of a scheduled train would display green flags by day and green lights at night. White flags/lamps indicate an extra train, dispatcher-created by train order, not on the timetable. It might be possible to mount two LEDs in the smokebox, green and white, and use fiber optics to get the light to the lanterns. Switching colors is left as an exercise for the student...
Fast forward to the present. Classification lamps are unused. Many recent locomotives don't even have them. The ones that do are set up to display red - as markers on the rear end of a rear-end pusher.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
nik .n To change the color use Tri-color or by-color LED's.
To change the color use Tri-color or by-color LED's.
That wouldn't work. The classification lights on the front need to display green or white. Bi-Colour LEDs display Red or Green. Yellow works by lighting Red and Green at the same time or very quickly alternating them, faster than the eye can pick up on it.
Bi-colour LEDS are great for signals since they display Red, Green and Amber/Yellow.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
wedudler grizlump9 i think the big issue would be how to change the colors and turn them on and off. otherwise, you get just what you see in the photo. an unnecessary marker that is improperly displayed. grizlump That's what I think too. And - marker lamps are smaller than with usual SMD LEDs.
grizlump9 i think the big issue would be how to change the colors and turn them on and off. otherwise, you get just what you see in the photo. an unnecessary marker that is improperly displayed. grizlump
i think the big issue would be how to change the colors and turn them on and off. otherwise, you get just what you see in the photo. an unnecessary marker that is improperly displayed.
That's what I think too.
And - marker lamps are smaller than with usual SMD LEDs.
Me too, no working markers is much better than incorrect colors or improperly displayed ones.
Sheldon
grizlump9 i think the big issue would be how to change the colors and turn them on and off. otherwise, you get just what you see in the photo. an unnecessary marker that is improperly displayed.grizlump
Some of us have installed working marker lights on certain HO models that have the marker in front of the smokebox so the markers could be lighted without too much effort. MTH is installing markers in the new UP 9000 coming out, but they have relocated the markers lights down to the front of the smoke box so it could be done. I don't consider that scale any longer when they move the lights to a different position so it can be lighted. O scale is much easier to light up markers and number boards simply because the larger size allows the smaller bulbs or SMT's to be installed inside the markers.
I included three pictures of Westside models with markers lights that work. I used small bulbs in the markers and produced the lens out of plastic. They are white in color since the later steam era seemed to use white as running as an extra train. They could have been lighted by LED's inside using glass light pipes into the markers if you wanted to use LED's. Very few production models are going to offer this option, but in the future, who knows. I noticed the latest Blue Line dropped the lighted number boards on the Big Boy also, due to cost.
CZ
tatansCan you imagine how small the bulb would be on a marker lamp, i
A light pipe from the boiler would do the trick. Just mold it in the shape of a lamp, then paint it over (everything but the light lens)
I've seen fiberoptics used as well.
It seems that if you want operating marker lamps on steam engines, you need to go to O-gauge.
I am aware that MTH is going into HO and they are bringing out marker lamps on some of their models, excluding the k-4, but pretty much every other brand in HO just skips this detail and puts fake plastic ones in place of the real working ones that you often find on the front of lionel trains and on the back of their tenders.
Wouldn't it be nice to have these on HO steams?
Why are these missing on so many otherwise beautiful engines put out by Broadway limited imports or Athearn? It would be nice to see these in smaller scale like HO.