SteamFreak tangerine-jack Thank you Stefan! Now what do you know about Joef? I've never heard of it (advertising market missing in N America maybe? don't complain about lack of sales if people don't know who you are!) Is it a good running train or is it like that turd of a TGV that Bachmann made way back when? I had the N scale B'mann TGV and never could get it to make a complete revolution of the track, even after 2 warranty repairs so I ended up throwing it in the trash (don't complain about business falling off when your products are better off in a garbage can) Jack, From the pdf service manuals Hornby puts under each loco description, the HJ 1013 is a trainset version with a pancake motor driving one truck, and the HJ 2058 has a can motor with dual flywheels that drives both trucks. The trainset version is clearly targeted at a lower price point, but at least there's a quality version out there. http://jouef.hornbyinternational.com/all-products/train-sets/hj-1013/http://jouef.hornbyinternational.com/all-products/locomotives/hj-2058/
tangerine-jack Thank you Stefan! Now what do you know about Joef? I've never heard of it (advertising market missing in N America maybe? don't complain about lack of sales if people don't know who you are!) Is it a good running train or is it like that turd of a TGV that Bachmann made way back when? I had the N scale B'mann TGV and never could get it to make a complete revolution of the track, even after 2 warranty repairs so I ended up throwing it in the trash (don't complain about business falling off when your products are better off in a garbage can)
Thank you Stefan! Now what do you know about Joef? I've never heard of it (advertising market missing in N America maybe? don't complain about lack of sales if people don't know who you are!) Is it a good running train or is it like that turd of a TGV that Bachmann made way back when? I had the N scale B'mann TGV and never could get it to make a complete revolution of the track, even after 2 warranty repairs so I ended up throwing it in the trash (don't complain about business falling off when your products are better off in a garbage can)
Jack,
From the pdf service manuals Hornby puts under each loco description, the HJ 1013 is a trainset version with a pancake motor driving one truck, and the HJ 2058 has a can motor with dual flywheels that drives both trucks. The trainset version is clearly targeted at a lower price point, but at least there's a quality version out there.
http://jouef.hornbyinternational.com/all-products/train-sets/hj-1013/
Thanks, I'm going to research this further. If there is a high quality V150 out there I will buy it. And no, I'm not thinking about runing a V150 on an American layout, I'm thinking about a mutilevel European layout where the V150 can have room to step out and nice scenery to roll past, with regular schedules and stops as would any passenger theme layout use. I need to find a source for the light concrete track the V150 uses, another market area that is minimal.
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
CNJ831 blownout cylinder In your case then I'd take it that we just say that MRR'ing is just a passing phase and forget the thing? If the whole of MRR'ing is such then assume a niche within a niche within another niche then---and yet IT LIVES-- Demographics also say that there was a dip in the number of people having children in the last 20 years so this does impact on a lot of things---if you consider population dips being one reason for school closings due to declining enrolment figures then another factor for MRR being on the outs would be the same issue---not just economics. This decline was one reason why the healthcare field is undergoing the problems with aging populations generally--again--population demographics does monkeywrench economics a lot Barry - I simply appreciate the hobby for what it, in the past and currently, basing that outlook on a knowledge of its history. Minor factors temper any situation but in the cause of the interest in model railroading, it is almost entirely a matter of exposure and societal circumstance. There was a time when youths saw trains (real or model) as an everyday element of life. Boys poured over Lionel wishbooks dreaming of creating spectacular Christmas layouts. If they actually had an impressive layout, they were the idol of their block. Any trip of over 100 miles distance probably involved a train ride and the engineer of that train drew respect. Dad probably had trains when he was young and was there to help you build your layout. Where are we today? Real trains are all but invisible in today's society, except for a tiny minority who commute to work by rail. Youths do not regard trains as a viable form of transportation - the personal car takes them on short distance trips and longer ones are done by jet. The Christmas association with model trains is a rapidly fading aspect in our society, except in the families of model railroaders. The mention of having or playing with Lionels at Christmas, or other times of the year. now will only elicit strange looks, or even ridicule, from classmates. And as for dad, odds are about 50/50 that he's not around to help you build anything. The youth of today have interests in Game Box, Face Book and texting, among other things. Times and even the family setting have changed and this must be accepted. I love the hobby but I'm wise enough to see the manner in which it's been evolving over these many years. CNJ831
blownout cylinder In your case then I'd take it that we just say that MRR'ing is just a passing phase and forget the thing? If the whole of MRR'ing is such then assume a niche within a niche within another niche then---and yet IT LIVES-- Demographics also say that there was a dip in the number of people having children in the last 20 years so this does impact on a lot of things---if you consider population dips being one reason for school closings due to declining enrolment figures then another factor for MRR being on the outs would be the same issue---not just economics. This decline was one reason why the healthcare field is undergoing the problems with aging populations generally--again--population demographics does monkeywrench economics a lot
In your case then I'd take it that we just say that MRR'ing is just a passing phase and forget the thing?
If the whole of MRR'ing is such then assume a niche within a niche within another niche then---and yet IT LIVES--
Demographics also say that there was a dip in the number of people having children in the last 20 years so this does impact on a lot of things---if you consider population dips being one reason for school closings due to declining enrolment figures then another factor for MRR being on the outs would be the same issue---not just economics. This decline was one reason why the healthcare field is undergoing the problems with aging populations generally--again--population demographics does monkeywrench economics a lot
Barry - I simply appreciate the hobby for what it, in the past and currently, basing that outlook on a knowledge of its history. Minor factors temper any situation but in the cause of the interest in model railroading, it is almost entirely a matter of exposure and societal circumstance.
There was a time when youths saw trains (real or model) as an everyday element of life. Boys poured over Lionel wishbooks dreaming of creating spectacular Christmas layouts. If they actually had an impressive layout, they were the idol of their block. Any trip of over 100 miles distance probably involved a train ride and the engineer of that train drew respect. Dad probably had trains when he was young and was there to help you build your layout.
Where are we today? Real trains are all but invisible in today's society, except for a tiny minority who commute to work by rail. Youths do not regard trains as a viable form of transportation - the personal car takes them on short distance trips and longer ones are done by jet. The Christmas association with model trains is a rapidly fading aspect in our society, except in the families of model railroaders. The mention of having or playing with Lionels at Christmas, or other times of the year. now will only elicit strange looks, or even ridicule, from classmates. And as for dad, odds are about 50/50 that he's not around to help you build anything.
The youth of today have interests in Game Box, Face Book and texting, among other things. Times and even the family setting have changed and this must be accepted. I love the hobby but I'm wise enough to see the manner in which it's been evolving over these many years.
CNJ831
I see this as a marketplace of ideas. The problem can be that no one bothers to put the hobby into a computer age scenario. Where are we when it comes to encouraging kids to get into MRR as a hobby? We sort of fell on our beaks with this---yes they have their gameboxes, computers and iphones--, I grew up with transister radios crammed into my ears---guitars and amps--but still had an interest in trains---why? because we lived right by the CN doubletrack main. There are a lot of people who don't even live near anything even closely related to transport of goods--even farmers are out of the urban radar when it comes to it--that there is a huge gap in terms of knowledge. When I went to school I got a good dose of geography that included how products got to the stores---including trains. Where is that? My niece and nephew both got the barest mention of these things. I could suggest, given this, that they only go by what is tossed their way---as long as we ignore the marketplace of ideas. I seem to be more into the idea of promoting a hobby than just letting it be ---maybe. As to the Depression and companies going under almost as soon as they opened---at least they tried. I wonder whether we'd even dare think the way they did then. Many of us are afraid to spend money on anything but survival stuff hence the mfr of goods sees less revenue--goes into cutback mode--lays off more people--more people unemployed--hence less money available ---on and on the story goes.
AAHAH!! one needs more people who think in terms of possibilities then!
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
tangerine-jackThank you Stefan! Now what do you know about Joef? I've never heard of it (advertising market missing in N America maybe? don't complain about lack of sales if people don't know who you are!) Is it a good running train or is it like that turd of a TGV that Bachmann made way back when? I had the N scale B'mann TGV and never could get it to make a complete revolution of the track, even after 2 warranty repairs so I ended up throwing it in the trash (don't complain about business falling off when your products are better off in a garbage can)
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
CNJ831 said:The youth of today have interests in Game Box, Face Book and texting, among other things. Times and even the family setting have changed and this must be accepted. I love the hobby but I'm wise enough to see the manner in which it's been evolving over these many years.
--------------------------
2 years ago I would have agreed with you.
However,
After rejoining the Bucyrus club and spending 55-60 hours running trains during the last two 8 day county fair I find that kids-including teens is fascinated by miniature trains.I have seen the same group of teens make 2-3 trips around the layouts-many ask very intelligent questions about the hobby and shockingly very few "how fast can they go?" type questions..We had one teen to make at least 5 visits.
Adults seem highly interested as well and many ask where the closest hobby shop is and a rough estimate start up cost and was mildly surprise at my estimates base on a "train set" type loop layout with 3-4 switches for industries,20-25 cars and 2 locomotives ,4 industry buildings and basic scenery..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Barry - I simply appreciate the hobby for what it is, in the past and currently, basing that outlook on a knowledge of its history. Minor factors temper any situation but in the cause of the interest in model railroading, it is almost entirely a matter of exposure and societal circumstance.
There was a time when youths saw trains (real or model) as an everyday element of life. In 1955 model railroading was regarded as the second most popular hobby in the United States. Boys poured over Lionel wishbooks dreaming of creating spectacular Christmas layouts. If they actually had an impressive layout, they were the idol of their block. Any trip of over 100 miles distance probably involved a train ride and the engineer of that train drew respect. Dad probably had trains when he was young and was there to help you build your layout.
Where are we today? Real trains are all but invisible in today's society, except for a tiny minority who commute to work by rail. Our hobby doesn't make even the top 100 list. Youths do not regard trains as a viable form of transportation - the personal car takes them on short distance trips and longer ones are done by jet. The Christmas association with model trains is a rapidly fading aspect in our society, except in the families of model railroaders. The mention of having or playing with Lionels at Christmas, or other times of the year. now will only elicit strange looks, or even ridicule, from classmates. And as for dad, odds are about 50/50 that he's not around to help you build anything.
The youth of today have interests in Game Box, Face Book and texting, among other things. Their interests are worlds away from model trains. Times and even the family setting have changed and this must be accepted. I love the hobby but I'm wise enough to see the manner in which it's been evolving over these many years.
In the past 20 years I have travelled over to Europe many times. I am Brit by birth and have family in the UK and Switzerland so have good reason to make the trip. There is nothing I enjoy more than taking my kids into a store like Franz Carl Weber (The Zurich equivalent of FAO Swartz) and admiring the Marklin trains. IMO they are stunning in both their detail and their price! OK the USD has been pathetic against the Swiss Franc, but still, what we can buy in the US for the same money is astonishing. Marklin was too rich for my wallet and I suspect for many others as well. However, I can;t criticize Marklin for its models, they are real works of art.
The UK is a whole different story. There are some excellent dealers in the UK that have great pricing on Hornby and other brands. It does not seem to matter when I go to the UK, there is always a weekend trains show somewhere withing driving distance. The hobby really seems to be alive and well. Running a high speed European train on a US layout is a bit of a gimmick, but can be fun. I purchased a complete Hornby Eurostar set for well under $100 (including shipping from the UK) from Hattons, a well known UK store and on-line presence. This thing absolutely flies around my track and looks mighty impressive with the LED lighting that I installed. To say the least this was a hit for my son for Christmas.
Companies will fail in an economic downturn. Poorly run companies that were barely sustainable in the good times will fold. Not good for the employees or investors, but a necessary evil. These closures create opportunities for new and emerging companies to meet market needs. With demise of Circuit City, here in the St. Louis area we are now hearing radio ads from local independent electronics dealers competing to fill the void. Some of these will succeed no doubt. History has shown us that out of the ashes of a recession fortunes are made, strong lean companies emerge and prosperity returns. It is somewhat analogous to famine and drought culling the wildebeest herd. All I can say is this, most especially if you are "let go" keep seeking that opportunity. Times will get better and you can and will emerge stronger from this.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
CNJ831 blownout cylinder tangerine-jack CNJ831 tangerine-jack Logic check The company is 150 years old. It's been through 3 insanely distructive wars, 5 changes of governments, 8 depressions (one where inflation was over 1,000%) and survived intact. Are we to now believe that this current media induced "economic crisis" has anything to do with the company's demise? I think not. I think its the logical end to years of poor management and lack of competetive foresight. They failed to see it coming. And is that how you would explain the demise in recent years of all those other european model train manufacturers as independent enterprises, too? There's a lot more at work here then simply mismanagement. Incidentally, during war(s) most toy train manufacturers have made large profits through war work (look at Lionel in WWII), more than enough to re-build and continue on successfully after the conflict ended, no matter how much physical damage their factories sustained. Likewise, even if the local economy was not in a shape to provide a market, demand from overseas kept them going. You'll find that the success or failure of toy and model train manufacturers throughout the 20th century was always closely tied to the world's economic situation and, in time of war, government involvement. CNJ831 Not at all. I refuse to put all company failures down to the simple answer of "current economic crisis". Even during the best of times companies go out of business, others thrive in the worst of times. Being focused on one market, one method, one concept, is a doomed philosophy. And as mentioned in other posts, the world is evolving, young tastes are changing, and companies need to tap that market. Good case in point, the French TGV train V150 broke the land speed record at 574kmh (no missprint, 574kmh) but there are no models of it available from any manufacturer anywhere in any scale. If they would make one, I would buy it. For that matter, what of any of the high speed trains world wide? Any models available? Few, if any. What a nice, modern and exciting market to sell to a youngster. T-J-you hit the nail on the head. If the vision goes so does the business. Walthers set up IN the depression and here we sit moaning ---ohno, ohno-- Now if only we can get someone to take a chance on the TGV-----I'd buy one in a moment--- I'm afraid the two preceeding cited posts are more indicative of a lack of knowledge concerning both the hobby's history and the marketing of models, than anything else. Regarding Depression Era model railroad manufacturers, if one actually checks the facts, they'll find that nearly all failed to survive this period of hard times. This was in spite of the fact that a great many were cottage industries, run part time by model railroaders, most of whom were willing to work on a break-even basis to advance the hobby.Yet, they still could not make it. Those few companies that survived WWII were virtually all dependent on their involvement in war work to keep in business and re-tool when the economy brightened. Walthers situation was unique and they survived the war years only through clever advertising and by selling scraps, not by actually being economically successful. The explosive growth of the hobby in the late 1940's through the early 1950's (from an estimated 16,000 hobbyists in 1944 to in excess of 100,000 by 1952) was largely a direct result of the era's prosperity. It also eventually resulted in the rise of much larger corporations serving the hobby community, something that certainly would not have occurred in a time of lesser prosperity. Unlike in the distant past, most of today's major hobby manufacturers are fairly large businesses. Nevertheless, all but the largest of them are working from business model that requires immediately selling out their latest offering to remain solvent. This practice requires a fairly large customer pool for success but the fact is that the hobby was shrinking well before the current financial downturn, thus the rise of the WGH program. Limit the number of customers, or their available disposable income and these companies will likely fail in rather short order. As an example of how close to the edge many companies are, witness what we've seen in the way of company bankruptcies and byouts/consolidations over the past five years - especially in europe - even though times were good. Staying afloat in a now declining economy over the next year or two I think is going to be a very tricky bussiness for many of the well known manufacturers. Additionally, I would point out that in model railroading today there essentially is no potential "youth market" to tap into, nor is one likely to magically surface in the future. Our's is a hobby that appeals mainly to those who of us who remember some sort of interaction/association with (model or real) trains from our youth. This is made very clear by the following. In 1950 the age of the average hobbyist was indicated to be 30, with one in five hobbyists being a teen, while only one in twenty was over the age of 50! Today, best estimates put the average hobbyist's age at close to 60, with only a few percent of hobbyists being under the age of 25. And year by year these figures only worsen. Times have changed and society's interests have dramatically altered, their is no way the hobby is going to regain its past through the youth of today. Regarding the idea of the introduction of a new, quality, TGV model, I think most manufacturers would consider this an almost suicidal move currently. It is a train operating only in a limited territory, in a highly unusual manner, in a European country. It has no counterpart in North America (the hobby's largest customer base) and it's high speed operation is unlike anything seen in this hemisphere. These aspects doom its use in any prototypical manner on almost all convention North American layouts, or by serious modelers just about anywhere. Therefore it becomes marketable basically to collectors and some of the folks who just wish to watch trains run non-stop in circles. With such limited market appeal, this model would necessarily have to be sold pretty much as a limited run, quaility collectible, priced similarly to some of the Con-Cor speciality trains we've seen lately, i.e. at least $400-$500. This would place it outside the purchasing range of the great majority of those hobbyists who might otherwise show interest, especially in a declining financial market. It would likely prove a disastrous move for any U.S. manufacturer at this time. CNJ831
blownout cylinder tangerine-jack CNJ831 tangerine-jack Logic check The company is 150 years old. It's been through 3 insanely distructive wars, 5 changes of governments, 8 depressions (one where inflation was over 1,000%) and survived intact. Are we to now believe that this current media induced "economic crisis" has anything to do with the company's demise? I think not. I think its the logical end to years of poor management and lack of competetive foresight. They failed to see it coming. And is that how you would explain the demise in recent years of all those other european model train manufacturers as independent enterprises, too? There's a lot more at work here then simply mismanagement. Incidentally, during war(s) most toy train manufacturers have made large profits through war work (look at Lionel in WWII), more than enough to re-build and continue on successfully after the conflict ended, no matter how much physical damage their factories sustained. Likewise, even if the local economy was not in a shape to provide a market, demand from overseas kept them going. You'll find that the success or failure of toy and model train manufacturers throughout the 20th century was always closely tied to the world's economic situation and, in time of war, government involvement. CNJ831 Not at all. I refuse to put all company failures down to the simple answer of "current economic crisis". Even during the best of times companies go out of business, others thrive in the worst of times. Being focused on one market, one method, one concept, is a doomed philosophy. And as mentioned in other posts, the world is evolving, young tastes are changing, and companies need to tap that market. Good case in point, the French TGV train V150 broke the land speed record at 574kmh (no missprint, 574kmh) but there are no models of it available from any manufacturer anywhere in any scale. If they would make one, I would buy it. For that matter, what of any of the high speed trains world wide? Any models available? Few, if any. What a nice, modern and exciting market to sell to a youngster. T-J-you hit the nail on the head. If the vision goes so does the business. Walthers set up IN the depression and here we sit moaning ---ohno, ohno-- Now if only we can get someone to take a chance on the TGV-----I'd buy one in a moment---
tangerine-jack CNJ831 tangerine-jack Logic check The company is 150 years old. It's been through 3 insanely distructive wars, 5 changes of governments, 8 depressions (one where inflation was over 1,000%) and survived intact. Are we to now believe that this current media induced "economic crisis" has anything to do with the company's demise? I think not. I think its the logical end to years of poor management and lack of competetive foresight. They failed to see it coming. And is that how you would explain the demise in recent years of all those other european model train manufacturers as independent enterprises, too? There's a lot more at work here then simply mismanagement. Incidentally, during war(s) most toy train manufacturers have made large profits through war work (look at Lionel in WWII), more than enough to re-build and continue on successfully after the conflict ended, no matter how much physical damage their factories sustained. Likewise, even if the local economy was not in a shape to provide a market, demand from overseas kept them going. You'll find that the success or failure of toy and model train manufacturers throughout the 20th century was always closely tied to the world's economic situation and, in time of war, government involvement. CNJ831 Not at all. I refuse to put all company failures down to the simple answer of "current economic crisis". Even during the best of times companies go out of business, others thrive in the worst of times. Being focused on one market, one method, one concept, is a doomed philosophy. And as mentioned in other posts, the world is evolving, young tastes are changing, and companies need to tap that market. Good case in point, the French TGV train V150 broke the land speed record at 574kmh (no missprint, 574kmh) but there are no models of it available from any manufacturer anywhere in any scale. If they would make one, I would buy it. For that matter, what of any of the high speed trains world wide? Any models available? Few, if any. What a nice, modern and exciting market to sell to a youngster.
CNJ831 tangerine-jack Logic check The company is 150 years old. It's been through 3 insanely distructive wars, 5 changes of governments, 8 depressions (one where inflation was over 1,000%) and survived intact. Are we to now believe that this current media induced "economic crisis" has anything to do with the company's demise? I think not. I think its the logical end to years of poor management and lack of competetive foresight. They failed to see it coming. And is that how you would explain the demise in recent years of all those other european model train manufacturers as independent enterprises, too? There's a lot more at work here then simply mismanagement. Incidentally, during war(s) most toy train manufacturers have made large profits through war work (look at Lionel in WWII), more than enough to re-build and continue on successfully after the conflict ended, no matter how much physical damage their factories sustained. Likewise, even if the local economy was not in a shape to provide a market, demand from overseas kept them going. You'll find that the success or failure of toy and model train manufacturers throughout the 20th century was always closely tied to the world's economic situation and, in time of war, government involvement. CNJ831
tangerine-jack Logic check The company is 150 years old. It's been through 3 insanely distructive wars, 5 changes of governments, 8 depressions (one where inflation was over 1,000%) and survived intact. Are we to now believe that this current media induced "economic crisis" has anything to do with the company's demise? I think not. I think its the logical end to years of poor management and lack of competetive foresight. They failed to see it coming.
Logic check
The company is 150 years old. It's been through 3 insanely distructive wars, 5 changes of governments, 8 depressions (one where inflation was over 1,000%) and survived intact.
Are we to now believe that this current media induced "economic crisis" has anything to do with the company's demise? I think not. I think its the logical end to years of poor management and lack of competetive foresight. They failed to see it coming.
And is that how you would explain the demise in recent years of all those other european model train manufacturers as independent enterprises, too? There's a lot more at work here then simply mismanagement.
Incidentally, during war(s) most toy train manufacturers have made large profits through war work (look at Lionel in WWII), more than enough to re-build and continue on successfully after the conflict ended, no matter how much physical damage their factories sustained. Likewise, even if the local economy was not in a shape to provide a market, demand from overseas kept them going. You'll find that the success or failure of toy and model train manufacturers throughout the 20th century was always closely tied to the world's economic situation and, in time of war, government involvement.
Not at all. I refuse to put all company failures down to the simple answer of "current economic crisis". Even during the best of times companies go out of business, others thrive in the worst of times. Being focused on one market, one method, one concept, is a doomed philosophy. And as mentioned in other posts, the world is evolving, young tastes are changing, and companies need to tap that market.
Good case in point, the French TGV train V150 broke the land speed record at 574kmh (no missprint, 574kmh) but there are no models of it available from any manufacturer anywhere in any scale. If they would make one, I would buy it. For that matter, what of any of the high speed trains world wide? Any models available? Few, if any. What a nice, modern and exciting market to sell to a youngster.
T-J-you hit the nail on the head. If the vision goes so does the business. Walthers set up IN the depression and here we sit moaning ---ohno, ohno--
Now if only we can get someone to take a chance on the TGV-----I'd buy one in a moment---
I'm afraid the two preceeding cited posts are more indicative of a lack of knowledge concerning both the hobby's history and the marketing of models, than anything else.
Regarding Depression Era model railroad manufacturers, if one actually checks the facts, they'll find that nearly all failed to survive this period of hard times. This was in spite of the fact that a great many were cottage industries, run part time by model railroaders, most of whom were willing to work on a break-even basis to advance the hobby.Yet, they still could not make it. Those few companies that survived WWII were virtually all dependent on their involvement in war work to keep in business and re-tool when the economy brightened. Walthers situation was unique and they survived the war years only through clever advertising and by selling scraps, not by actually being economically successful.
The explosive growth of the hobby in the late 1940's through the early 1950's (from an estimated 16,000 hobbyists in 1944 to in excess of 100,000 by 1952) was largely a direct result of the era's prosperity. It also eventually resulted in the rise of much larger corporations serving the hobby community, something that certainly would not have occurred in a time of lesser prosperity.
Unlike in the distant past, most of today's major hobby manufacturers are fairly large businesses. Nevertheless, all but the largest of them are working from business model that requires immediately selling out their latest offering to remain solvent. This practice requires a fairly large customer pool for success but the fact is that the hobby was shrinking well before the current financial downturn, thus the rise of the WGH program. Limit the number of customers, or their available disposable income and these companies will likely fail in rather short order. As an example of how close to the edge many companies are, witness what we've seen in the way of company bankruptcies and byouts/consolidations over the past five years - especially in europe - even though times were good. Staying afloat in a now declining economy over the next year or two I think is going to be a very tricky bussiness for many of the well known manufacturers.
Additionally, I would point out that in model railroading today there essentially is no potential "youth market" to tap into, nor is one likely to magically surface in the future. Our's is a hobby that appeals mainly to those who of us who remember some sort of interaction/association with (model or real) trains from our youth. This is made very clear by the following. In 1950 the age of the average hobbyist was indicated to be 30, with one in five hobbyists being a teen, while only one in twenty was over the age of 50! Today, best estimates put the average hobbyist's age at close to 60, with only a few percent of hobbyists being under the age of 25. And year by year these figures only worsen. Times have changed and society's interests have dramatically altered, their is no way the hobby is going to regain its past through the youth of today.
Regarding the idea of the introduction of a new, quality, TGV model, I think most manufacturers would consider this an almost suicidal move currently. It is a train operating only in a limited territory, in a highly unusual manner, in a European country. It has no counterpart in North America (the hobby's largest customer base) and it's high speed operation is unlike anything seen in this hemisphere. These aspects doom its use in any prototypical manner on almost all convention North American layouts, or by serious modelers just about anywhere. Therefore it becomes marketable basically to collectors and some of the folks who just wish to watch trains run non-stop in circles. With such limited market appeal, this model would necessarily have to be sold pretty much as a limited run, quaility collectible, priced similarly to some of the Con-Cor speciality trains we've seen lately, i.e. at least $400-$500. This would place it outside the purchasing range of the great majority of those hobbyists who might otherwise show interest, especially in a declining financial market. It would likely prove a disastrous move for any U.S. manufacturer at this time.
Unlike in the distant past, most of today's major hobby manufacturers are fairly large businesses. Nevertheless, all but the largest of them are working from business model that requires immediately selling out their latest offering to remain solvent. This practice requires a fairly large customer pool for success but the fact is that the hobby was shrinking well before the current financial downturn, thus the rise of the WGH program. Limit the number of customers, or their available disposable income and these companies will likely fail in rather short order. As an example of how close to the edge many companies are, witness what we've seen in the way of company bankruptcies and byouts/consolidations over the past five years - especially in Europe - even though times were good. Staying afloat over the next year or two in a now declining economy I think is going to be a very tricky bussiness for many of the well known manufacturers.
Regarding the idea of the introduction of a new, quality, TGV model, I think most manufacturers would consider this an almost suicidal move currently. It is a train operating only in a limited territory, in a highly unusual manner, in a European country. It has no counterpart in North America (the hobby's largest customer base) and it's high speed operation is unlike anything seen in this hemisphere. These aspects doom its use in any prototypical manner on almost all conventional North American layouts, or by serious modelers just about anywhere. Therefore it becomes marketable basically to collectors and some of the folks who just wish to watch trains run non-stop in circles. With such limited market appeal, this model would necessarily have to be sold pretty much as a limited run, quaility collectible, priced similarly to some of the Con-Cor speciality trains we've seen lately, i.e. at least $400-$500. This would place it outside the purchasing range of the great majority of those hobbyists who might otherwise show interest, especially in a declining financial market. It would likely prove a disastrous move for any U.S. manufacturer at this time.
Well--Joef makes the TGV sets? Why is NO ONE in EU thinking of advertising HERE!! WE ARE part of the market are we not?
Or do we have a kind of "underground" flavour to our marketing---only those in the know---ooopps.
As for the others stated---Marklin filing for bankruptcy protection, Mehano(Quality issue!) out of the picture---great selection here. Kato--I'll buy it because I know them--there is a bit more ad work from them----A.C.M.E.(?) again, where is the advert work---you do not get much business through sitting on one's duff!!
Again, why aren't these trains that Stefan helpfuly shared with us not being pushed to the forefront of the market to youngsters? "Green" fast and sleek, concrete track, high capacity- all the things a modern tech savvy youngster would be interested in.
When I find out about the company, the durability and reliability of the product, I will buy one (or not if it's crap). I will stimulate that small segment of the economy in my own small way.
tangerine-jackGood case in point, the French TGV train V150 broke the land speed record at 574kmh (no missprint, 574kmh) but there are no models of it available from any manufacturer anywhere in any scale. If they would make one, I would buy it. For that matter, what of any of the high speed trains world wide? Any models available? Few, if any. What a nice, modern and exciting market to sell to a youngster.
Well, there is actually a model of it, made by Jouef in H0
and
http://jouef.hornbyinternational.com/all-products/locomotives/hj-2058/
As for other high speed trains there are a couple of TGV:s from Jouef and Mehano, there are ICE:s from Märklin, Fleischmann, Piko etc, there are italian HST from A.C.M.E. (yes, thats a real company http://www.acmetreni.it/ ) not to mention Kato:s japanese N scale models.
/Stefan
Good points Ian, and I was about to make the one about three-rail operation myself until I read your post. Being incompatible with every other HO manufacturer couldn't have helped their sales. They were shortsighted in choosing their heritage over switching to two-rail operation years ago. I remember seeing Marklin trains at a store called Tiny Tots when I was about 7, and wondering even at that age why their equipment was completely proprietary.
Guys,
Writing from the UK, I can put a European view forward as to why Maerklin, like others before it, finds itself in this mess.
Firstly, Maerklin (sorry can't find an umlaut for the "a"), like Roco believed having "Made in Germany", or "Made in Austria" meant a better product. It didn't outsource to China, and labour and production costs were, and are far too high. My LHS is offering a Maerklin DB182 with sound at $302, and a Roco non-sound, DC only SNCF 463 four axle switcher for $150. It's unlikely any US modeller would pay $150 for what's essentially the same as an Atlas RS2.
Secondly, the market is shrinking. Young Europeans aren't buying model trains. Railroad modelling is popular in the UK, Netherlands and Germany, but very much less so elsewhere, so whilst the populations of western EU and the US are roughly the same, the proportion of model railroaders in the EU is lower than in America.
Thirdly, Maerklin's core product line is it's three-rail AC system which is almost wholly based on German prototypes. This nationalistic concentration means that such Maerklin products appeal in Germany but have limited success elsewhere. This is true of all European manufacturers who look after their domestic markets. This is in contrast to say Atlas or Athearn that manufacture models covering the whole of the US (and they have the benefit of having a smaller number of prototypes, especially in today's world of the ubquitous SD70 / AC4400 pairing).
Finally, the credit crunch is as bad here as it is in the US, but the European Central Bank is keeping interest rates in the Eurozone relatively high, which is no stimulus to get the economy moving. People read the papers and watch TV and are scared to spend their cash for fear of redundancy.
Ian
**appluase**
See my note in the other trhead.
" Lack of Competitive Foresight"? That and a good strong dose of Headinsand Complex. As in "I donwanna----"
tatans Whoa, hang on, My note on firing is being misinterpreted, It seems many people do not know the difference between ''FIRED'' ( employment terminated usually for some infraction of company rules) and "LAID OFF" (discharge workers through lack of work) The two are NOT the same.
Whoa, hang on, My note on firing is being misinterpreted, It seems many people do not know the difference between ''FIRED'' ( employment terminated usually for some infraction of company rules) and "LAID OFF" (discharge workers through lack of work) The two are NOT the same.
I know that and you know that but some people who use my services sometimes may be getting a little more picky with who they hire---hence the sort of poke/prod thing. Let's just say that some are getting a little paranoid about terminologies/differences.
Every day you read the news with the markets and stock prices, and it seems to be getting worse. I'm waiting for some of the MR, big names that is to start cutting major production, and supplies. Its just a matter of time!
Midnight Railroader tatansyou were not FIRED, you were let go, don't ever tell a future employer you were "fired" you will be out the door in seconds Lucky employers don't know this little trick... Oh, wait, they do now, thanks to you.
tatansyou were not FIRED, you were let go, don't ever tell a future employer you were "fired" you will be out the door in seconds
Lucky employers don't know this little trick...
Oh, wait, they do now, thanks to you.
I've done interviews for my employer for a few years now---known that trick for years---mgr's trained interviewers to watch for hesitations in certain questions---they'll find out---
Marklin is not me cup of tea, either. However, this is going to be a shock to European railroad modelers. The equivalent here would be if Atlas went under. They do have very nice models, so prices may be soft for those interested, leading to some bargains if you're in the market for what they offer. I do hope they continue after getting back on their feet.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Quite honestly, Marklin has been in severe financial trouble for the past several years. If it does outright fail, then very likely LGB will go with them, too. It's no secret that the European model train manufacturers have been failing and being consolidated for a number of years now. There's not a lot left and the current economic situation may well bring about their total demise. Model trains are going to have a very low priority in the lives of most europeans over the next few years.
With regard to the worldwide situation with the manufacturers, I would anticipate that we really have yet to see how the recession is fully impacting them and how it will reshape the hobby in the near future. Probably through this spring, we will be seeing products coming to the market that were already well along in the pipeline prior to the serious economic downturn. So, things probably aren't going to look all that bad immediately. Thereafter, however, it remains to be seen what, if much of anything new, is announced and perhaps which of the smaller yet well known manufacturers goes belly up. Remember, four or five months into the Great Depression folks outside Wall Street didn't yet think things were going all that bad. I suspect that if we had a crystal ball with which we could look 18 months into the future, most of us would be absolutely shocked to see the state of the hobby.
Incidentally, I was told yesterday that Horizon has just let more than a score of employees go. The first small signs of an industry trend?
Remember, In every recession(depression) scenario, the surest sign the economy is heading toward a recovery is the rising unemployment figures, this means companies are at their lowest economic point and are desperate to stay afloat, so, lay people off in order to survive, tighten purse strings, save some money, make some money, hire people to make stuff. Also notice how many NEW companies have taken the place of the one who faded away. I know, these words of wisdom mean nothing if you just got your notice, and, you were not FIRED, you were let go, don't ever tell a future employer you were "fired" you will be out the door in seconds.
I bet there will be more added to the list in the next few months.