Many good comments, I have enjoyed reading them! First of all you cannot judge a market by Yahoo groups, I only belong to the hoyardsale group to look for out of production kits ect. I belong to the 4L loggers group, but plan to leave that one as I am not really into the logging modeling anymore. One cannot judge the market by what is in MRR, they just show case what thier really getting paid to show, its always been a bit biased in my opinion. I know many more guys with small layouts, 18" and a couple 22" radius curves, small steam and diesel or all steam. I am sure if the models where out there that ran as good as the current crop of modern diesel and huge steam, we would see a couple of really nice, large 1900 era layouts in a couple of years. If Model Railroader Magazine really watches this forum. How about making the next small layout project a 1900 era midwestern railroad, with small steam power, both passenger and freight operations ect. Athearn/Roundhouse have both freight and passenger power and rolling stock. There are plenty of older power on the market if one knows where to look. Who says they have to build it with all current production items? I bet a small layout project would stir plenty of interest in 1900 and before modeling. I bet a nicely redone civil war era 4-4-0 or just after the war look would sell like hot cakes. Espicly if the price was kept down. If one puts the motor from the tender into the locomotive, then you have room for a N scale decoder and sound system in the tender. The old Casey Jones engines I plan to use already have an empty tender. I built 4 old Roundhouse ICRR Overton cars today, and enjoyed every min of it. I added window glazing, frosted them with celophane tape as there are no interiors. I am working on how to light them up. The tail car will get working Tomar marker lanterns. Model train companies watch these forums, they watch what the topics are, what guys are modeling and intested in. Once I start construction on my new layout, I will keep it out there on the net, creating interest in this neglected era. Cheers Mike
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
For HO scale, the perceived limited demand for 19th century trains is mostly because the locomotive models one can readily purchase are junk. Some people will make do with Spectrum or Roundhouse engines but they are really models of 20th century prototypes.
Serious model railroaders recognize and appreciate quality. The HOn3 market was nearly non-existent until Blackstone brought out their K-27. My local hobby store has sold a surprising number of HOn3 models because of just one decent quality locomotive in a market where there previously was none (except for brass).
How many people do you think would model the 1950's if the only first generation diesel model available was a Lifelike train set F7 (one truck powered by a pancake motor and electricity pickup from the other truck)?
The vast majority of small road engines were built before WWI, and many of them ran into the 1950s. I'm principally talking about 2-6-0s, 4-4-0s, 2-8-0s, and 4-4-2s. If the proper prototypes were chosen, manufacturers could offer both original and modernized versions with the substitution of just a few parts (stacks, headlights, generators, possibly air pumps, etc.). That would keep production costs low and satisfy modelers of different eras.
Mark
I'd like to second the observation that "markets" are more often than not made rather than met. The whole consumer economy is based on that premise: most of the small electronic products like Ipods that now sell in the millions did not get developed because there was an existing market for them--their creators used advertising to stimulate interest in what were until then unknown (and so unsought) products.
In the model railroad field Bachmann has provided a good example of this fact. I doubt that before Bachmann began to develop its line of On30 equipment that there were large numbers of modelers interested in that scale. But by developing a whole line of reliable products and consistently advertising them, Bachmann opened up a whole new niche that must be profitable, judging by their continuous additions.
That most of this line is, in fact, of turn of the century equipment also calls into question the claim that only contemporary equipment finds buyers. It may be true that a firm can sell more F-7s than moguls, but numbers alone don't necessarily determine profitability. When you have to compete with three or four other companies and keep prices down as a result, you may gain less of a return than if you create a niche market with few or no competitors. Note in that regard that Bachmann isn't facing much competion in its line of early On30 offerings. Of course, as Bachmann also demonstrates, the key to doing so may be to market a whole line of accurate early equipment.
Horizon has not heeded that fact in taking over the old MDC line. It issues items sporadically, doesn't keep them in stock, and totally ignores protype accuracy.The HO Roundhouse ersatz 4-4-0 based on an RGW consolidation is a case in point. Yet even that model quickly sold out. Indeed, even the old Bachmann 4-4-0s, which are crude and run poorly, seem to sell well, judging from their continued availability and the numbers resold on auction sites.That these questionable models bring a respectable return seems to belie the claim that few purchase early equipment. One wonders what potential market might exist for accurate, well engineered early railroad equipment that ran well--and was well promoted. Sadly, current economic conditions will make it hard if not impossible for big firms, even Bachmann, to finance production of new imported items. And most (like Detroit) lack the mentality to enter this area: they'll probably keep producing the same Mikados and F-7s until they go out of business.
The only hope lies in the emergence of small domestic firms willing to put out kits based on simpler manufacturing methods than die cast plastic. The British model scene demonstrates what's possible in this regard; there are many small locomotive lines sold there based on cast and etched parts. I can't but help notice how many small US firms are already producing excellent structure kits. If only some comparable firms would address the market for small locomotive. True, these would not be mass markets, but mass markets are not necessarily the most profitably, particularly in the new times ahead.
Voyageur
" If all the 1000 people on the Early Rail Yahoo group buy two models (and who has just 2 coal cars during the steam era?) the gon manufacturer will have sold as many cars as the hopper manufacturer. "
The internet population is not an indicator of participation. All my "Meet Albums" of On30 gatherings only had about 300 visits each from the On30 community, they were general interest for that group. The claimed level of the vaunted "On30 Conspiracy" was 2100 at the time.
I got more than that for my obscure Decapod Sound web article from the general modeling public.
Besides people on the internet Yahoo forums tend to be cheap and wouldn't buy it anyway, ask any cottage manufacturer in On30.
Harold
I refer to it as the "slide valve era." According to Linn Westcott's Cyclopedia, piston valves began appearing on production steam locomotives at around 1909.
I don't know how many of us model the era, but we are a small faction of the model railroading community. As for reasons, I think there are a couple of things at play. First, it was a long time ago and few of us have received first-hand accounts of the time from folks who lived then. I'm 51 and my now departed grandparents were born around 1900, most of the things they told me were from the '20s and '30s.
also
It seems to me that there are fewer movies and plays or even books about the era than any other post-Civil War era, so it's hard to really visualize it (don't we have to visualize what we model?).
In various media, we have pretty good representation of the Civil War era and reconstruction. In Chicago they remember 1908 for the Cubs most recent World Campionship, but that stretch from about 1880 to 1920 really seems to be a fairly obscure period in our conciousness. Even WW I seems to be sort of its own entity and not really fixed to a time-frame in terms of the way we think of it. Of course, this is just the way I see it and I have no doubt that there are folks who are passionate about the era and know all about it. When I think about all that happened in that time frame it seems like it ought to be pretty interesting, but instead it appears to have evolved to obscurity (like I imagine the 1970-1999 period will be for future generations).
As an example, I can name every President from 1932 to 2009 and most of them from Grant back to Washington, but those guys in the middle... Oh yeah, Teddy Roosevelt, but who were the others?
Getting back to the topic, I actually model the 1935 time frame, but my ficticious railroad is a low-budget operation and they buy their equipment second-hand, so all of my locos are slide-valve and the rolling stock has truss rods. I find that I can usually get any loco I want on the used-brass market (coreless motors and better gears make these run as good as they look). I'm happy to build vintage craftsman kits to build my rolling inventory.
Manufacturers are going to do what they feel is their best route to being profitable. Right now (and I think in the future) that route includes very little for slide valve era modelers. It probably would not be a good choice for the guys who like to buy their models RTR, but for folks who like to build and tweak it's a lot of fun.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
I'll chime in as a 1900 era HO scale modeler. I chose the era because I do not have space for the broad curves to run late steam and desiel era rolling stock reliably. The longer wheelbases of a more modern era would be a problem on the medium to tight curves my space is dictating. I know I am going to have to kitbash and scratchbuilding most of the models. Should be an enjoyable challenge. I think...
I would love to see more rolling stock for this era. Locomotives and passenger cars in particular. But I also acknowledge the reality of the marketplace for manufacturers. It takes a lot of work and resources to produce a model. Perhaps this translates into a need to sell more than the market would buy for our chosen era.
Looks like there enough of us to create an opportunity for a specialty manufacturer if the major ones want to ignore the market. Kits work just as well as RTR and could reduce the production cost by eliminating the labor/machinery needed to assemble the locomotives/cars... Any other ideas for helping spur manufacturers into producing more for the 1900 railroading era?
cacoleBut you're probably the exception instead of being in the majority of modelers. Look through the pages of Model Railroader or any other magazine at the layouts they publish. How many of them, comparatively speaking, model the same era you do?
There is a big difference between "small market" and "no market".
Here is a very unscientific analysis. Go to Yahoo groups and search for "model railroad". Look at the membership sizes for the various groups. The more general groups will have memberships in the 2500-4000 range (LDSig, OPSig DCC, JMRI, toy trains, etc. But if you look at the niche groups (citrus shipping, commuter rail, logging, steel, Freemo, etc) they are in 500-1200 member range. Groups for individual railroads (CNJ, NYC, PRR, NH, BNSF, IAIS, etc) are in the 500-1500 range.
The EarlyRail group has 950 members. That puts it right in the middle with outher niche modeling groups and railroad interest groups. So saying that its not worth producing turn of the century (TOC) models is equivalent of saying its not worth producing steel mill models or IAIS models or NH models or logging models because there is no market.
The model magazines cater towards the center and majority. If you look at any other niche group in modeling (logging, petrochemical, narrow gauge) they are also as rarely covered.
The market will be there if you make it. How many people really need a Erie Triplex? How many people need an Aerotrain? For that matter, how many people need a gas turbine? All of those models were built purely for collectors or their novelty factor, not because how how many modelers "need" them. All three of those projects were engines that served in a extremely limited area for an extremely limited duration in extremely limited service. If a manufacturer makes a steel twin hopper model he is sharing a larger market with the 35 other models of steel twin hoppers He gets maybe 10% of 20,000 hopper models made. The manufacturer that makes 34 ft hopper bottom gondola has 100% of the market. If all the 1000 people on the Early Rail Yahoo group buy two models (and who has just 2 coal cars during the steam era?) the gon manufacturer will have sold as many cars as the hopper manufacturer.
I paint an letter my own cars. The manufacturer with the largest variety of decals/dry transfers I have found is Microscale. If Herald King is back in business, they might be second. If you are looking at number of sets offered two of the largest, in the top 10 are Art Griffin and Clover House. What is the specialty of those companies? TOC lettering. So like it or not, there is an active modeling community for the TOC era.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Yes, I remember the old days when I built a Varney "Casey Jones"...those old steamers were generally poor runners, but that was all we had in the late 1950s. I still have a couple of AHM, Rivarossi and Bachmann woodburners - but they are strictly DC (I run DCC), and I would doubt there is enough room to add a decoder. If I had any mechanical talent, I suppose I could back-date one of the Bachmann 4-4-0s...like I said "if"... In addition to locomotives, we really could use some 19th rolling stock (I make due with a plethora of Roundhouse cars...which are really early 20th century units). Yes, there are a couple of small manufacturers making craftsman kits of 1860 - 1890 cars - but they require a higher degree of ability than, say, an Accurail or Branchline kit.
Recently I completed a B.T.S. flat car. By the time I finished I resolved to never build another. The kit came out well...but was too complicated for my old gray cells. When the stress of the process becomes greater than the thrill of completion; one needs to redirect ones attention elsewhere. [BTW: that italicized statement is something I pass on to my clients.]
I do agree, with the other posters, that our segment of the hobby is just too small to attract the major manufacturers' attention. They keep churning out more 40' box cars and hoppers. Apparently there aren't enough on hobby shop shelves. In line with that statement, as a model railroad show vendor, I have never had trouble selling anything from the 19th century. Makes you wonder doesn't it?
Ray
"Keeping my hand on the throttle...and my eyes on rail."
I didn't say that we are in the majority, just a bigger minority than this thread seems to suggest. I know about a number of Virginia & Truckee layouts in my area, so I know I am not alone around here. Take a look at the Narrow Gauge and Shortline Gazette: plenty of pre-WW1 articles and layouts. - Nevin
NevinWI disagree that there is no market for turn of the century steam. I have 8 on my 1907 era layout.
But you're probably the exception instead of being in the majority of modelers. Look through the pages of Model Railroader or any other magazine at the layouts they publish. How many of them, comparatively speaking, model the same era you do?
A quick perusal of the latest issues of Model Railroader and Railroad Model Craftsman magazines revealed that only one how-to or layout article even came close to being the same era as yours or running small steam. Every other one was pure diesel or ran a mix of diesel and large steam.
The Short Line & Narrow Gauge Gazette seems to be the only publication that is devoted to turn-of-the-century small steam, and most of that is scratchbuilt.
No Market
CNJ831As Harold has noted, this is a period which is of interest to only a vanishingly small minority. I think even the civil war era generates more interest in modelers. As such, what little is currently available is likely to be about as good as it's going to get.
Lets see, there are very few accurate engines, there are virtually no cars other than craftsman kits, and (other than craftsman kits) nobody has brough out any new rolling stock designs in over 30 years, I wonder why nobody models it? Hmmmmm.
If you go to craftsman kits there are probably 30-40 of them, some older designs but over half within the last decade and a thriving home resin casting effort.
In many ways the 1900 era modelers are in the same place 1950's modelers were 30-40 years ago (and ironically most of the products offered by the major manufacturers are the SAME ones offered 30-40 years ago). 30 years ago a boxcar looked like an Athearn blue box because that's all there was and people weren't sophisticated enough to know the difference. People who don't model that era look at an MDC/Roundhouse boxcar and say 1890's, 1900's because its wood and has truss rods and they don't really know what a 1890's, 1900's boxcar looks like. Saying a Roundhouse 36 ft boxcar is a 1900 era car is like saying a 40 ft boxcar with no roofwalk and low ladders/brakewheel is a 1950's era car because its 40 ft long.
30 years ago the MDC Roundhouse 36 ft boxcar WAS an 1890's, 1900 car, but they recut the molds in the 1980's or 1990's and updated the car to the 1915-1920 era. Recently they recut the molds again with plastic underframe, better truss rods and vastly improved paint schemes (much, much more accurate for the 1890's, 1900's). So the people that say, oh they won't cut new molds for those cars are wrong, they have cut new molds, completely new molds. If you look at a 1970's production 36 ft boxcar model it has different ends, doors, sides and underframe compared to a 2000's production model. So the manufacturers are willing to invest in new molds, so how about more caccurate molds and some new car bodies. On that 36 ft underframe that has more or less been in production for 40 years they could drop a gondola shell and come up with a completely new car that has never been offered in plastic. ONE casting.
Considering how horribly illsuited the modern era is to modeling, its only real advantage is that you can see it in person, I think its only time before more people explore more interesting and varied eras.
Manufacturers make what they know or hope will sell well. In the past, Bachmann, Pocher, Mantua, Tyco, Model Die Casting, and others have made old time 2-4-0, 2-6-0, 0-4-0, etc. small locomotives and today's manufacturers probably know that they didn't sell enough to pay for the cost of the tooling.
The Bachmann engines are detailed for the 1920's or 1930's. On the 4-6-0 to be appropriate for 1900 you would have to remove the valve gear, add Stephenson links, remove the generator and replace the electric headlights with oil lights. Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 is not an 1900 era engine by any means. Model power had a 2-8-0 with a nice boiler that is era appropriate but not as good a tender drive.
What's really missing are switch engines and better running earlier 4-4-0's. Currently the only switchers anywhere close to that era are either 0-6-0T's or camelbacks. Since I model Reading predecessors, camelbacks aren't really an issue for me. The IHC/Bachmann/Poucher 4-4-0 needs an upgrade on flanges, mechanism and ternder trucks.
As Harold has noted, this is a period which is of interest to only a vanishingly small minority. I think even the civil war era generates more interest in modelers. As such, what little is currently available is likely to be about as good as it's going to get.
CNJ831
Turn if the Century(1900 era) steam locomotive are avaialble in HO. The Bachmann Spectrum Baldwin 2-8-0. the 4-6-0, and 'Modernized' 4-4-0 are all good engines for that era. The Athearn/Roundhouse engines are usually a little older(1880), but are available as well.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I think its a shame they no longer produce the MDC/ROUNDHOUSE Santa Fe 4-4-2 /2-6-2 locomotive kits,they are specific to one of the most modeled railroads in the world......
Seems everything now'a days is RTR no longer giving modelers the satisfaction of building their own models.I've built and painted several loco kits including the Mantua 2-6-6-2 and the Bowser L1 2-8-2 and was rewarded with intense satisfaction when they were finished.Still have the 2-6-6-2 and am in the process of upgrading the drive system with a new can motor and changing it to a heavier road engine by swapping out the superstructure with a Mantua heavy Mikado boiler and new cab.
I wonder if the tooling for the old AHM Casey Jones engine is still around? Just needs a slower gear ratio and smaller flanges. It looks great detail wise. I am planning to get one of the old timer 2-8-0's from Athearn/Roundhouse shortly. And I am regearing 2 Casey Jones engines with NWSL gears. Mike
I think the best we can hope for would be the re-release of the MDC/Roundhouse Harriman series engines by Athearn some time in the future.
The engine series ran from the 4-4-2, 4-6-0, 2-6-2, 2-8-2 to an 0-6-0 switcher.
Been doing it for 50 years and what we got is as good as it gets. No Market.
In On30 very few model the 1900's, seems diesels and the thirties are more popular.
On the othen end of the large steam requests, I think we have seen enough of the high doller, monster steam engines. Yes they are great to see, but lets get realistic here, how many of us can really run those huge engines on our layouts. I personaly would like to see more turn of the centruy, ie 1900 era steamers reissued with good drives. Lets see the Rivarossi Casey Jones ten wheeler with a modern can motor drive and slower gear ratio, Bachmann needs to redo thier civil war era 4-4-0's with a incab drive system and dump the tender motor set up. I know there are baby can motors small enough to get the drive totaly hidden in the little locomotive. While its great that Athean/Roundhouse is doing a 4-4-0, 2-6-0 and 2-8-0. There needs to be more, with more fine scale details like the spectrum 4-4-0, its just a more early 20th century styleing and not 1900 or earlier. I think that era of modeling needs to be catered to more, if it was I think it would expand greatly. Small cars, light track work, no signals, heck, no vehicles. One could save a small fortune in just automobiles that one normaly puts on a decent layout. I have heard that some of the Rivarossi tools were lost to a fire many years ago, I wonder if the Jones engine tooling was one of them? The detail on the old AHM/Rivarossi 4-6-0 was really good for its day, give it some RP25 flanges and a better motor and gear ratio and it would be perfect to me. To me there has been far to many repeat models from every builder, I mean really, how many Big Boys do we need, F units, large late steam era locomotives. The way On30 took off with small locomotives, running on HO track and not really taking up much more space than HO should be a wake up call that more small HO engines are needed. But they need to run well and be up to todays standards. Athearn is slowly releasing the old MDC/Roundhouse cars, so they have the dies for the old truss rod freight and passenger cars. There are plenty of wood and craftsman kits still out there to be had if you into building those. We just need a good supply of detailed 1900 and prior locomotives that run well out of the box. Cheers Mike