Wow, this thread turned into a real ray of sunshine for the hobby.Try to remember why we provide this forum: So hobbyists from around the world can exchange information on model railroading. After reading this thread, do you think any newcomer would join in the conversation around here?Dial back the criticism and cynicism of everything under the sun. Remember, this is a HOBBY ... we’re not taking life and death matters here. This is your free time. You’re supposed to enjoy it and approach it with vigor, not sit back behind some stealthy username and take pot shots at other people and the manufacturers who try to cater to your scaled-down world. Before you hit the submit button, ask yourself if what you’re about ready to post is serving any positive purpose. If it’s not, keep it to yourself.I’m sorry that this is addressed to all of you ... it’s certainly not meant to be an indictment of everyone. It’s too bad the negative outshines the positives around here sometimes.Bergie
OOPS....
sorry to prolong this somewhat off-topic item, or beat a dead horse, but...
in the interest of providing honest and factual posts, I must clarify one of my earlier posts.
The one where I mentioned that this week's Walthers order was shipped with a 97.5%fill-rate, I forgot that my very reliable Walthers sales rep was absent on Monday and Ihad to place my order with someone apparently relatively new.
On one of the first items, he mentioned it was a backorder, on everything after that hesaid "O.K." so I assumed....
So when the order arrived, I found it was not 97.5% complete, but rather 84% complete.
I submit this with egg on my face and a slice of humble pie, and hope that you canappreciate my interest in maintaining accurate information in my posts.
IRONROOSTERPersonally, I have always been well pleased with Model Railroader and I think they do great job. I have been a subscriber for over 35 years - sure the magazine has changed, but so has the hobby, both for the better. Also, give Kalmbach credit for moving aggressively into the internet age, unlike a number of their competitors who are no longer with us.While I don't order often from Walthers, I have always been pleased with them.EnjoyPaul
Personally, I have always been well pleased with Model Railroader and I think they do great job. I have been a subscriber for over 35 years - sure the magazine has changed, but so has the hobby, both for the better. Also, give Kalmbach credit for moving aggressively into the internet age, unlike a number of their competitors who are no longer with us.
Enjoy
Paul
Well said, Paul.
While no company is perfect, much of what passes on here for "criticism" is mostly wild speculation masquerading as authoritative insight.
I don't have all the answers either, but I can tell you putting out quality publications every month is a ton of work and I still look forward to receiving my MR every month after almost 42 years in the hobby.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
Andre; well said---that is in fact what causes the issue---why shoot the messenger when the manufacturer isn't 'up to someone's standards'?
It is a supply management issue---not just the distributers---let us give this thread a rest---
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Seriously, though, I always find it amusing that somebody wil inevitably point out that Kalbach provides the forum at no charge whenever a poster is critical of the company (or in this case, Walthers), as if that somehow makes criticism of the company a bad thing. (And, by association, if we paid to use it, that would make criticism all right.)
Dissatisfied customers can't be marginalized by others' posts about how happy they are with the service they received. Walthers has a reputation that all the rose-colored glases in the world won't make go away.
Where did I say that the criticism is a bad thing? No, what chaps my hide is that there are a number of people whose only purpose in life seems to be complaining.
Rose colored glasses have nothing to do with anything. Walthers is primarily a distributor. They can't distribute what the manufacturers haven't made yet or whose last production run ended several years ago and haven't gotten around to doing another run. I have news for everybody. Production in the model railroad environment is batch production. Get used to it and get over it. The market is too small for production of items to be done on a continuous basis, especially since an already small market base is fragmented into even smaller sub-markets.
Andre
In most manufacturing this may not be an issue but what we have here is not just manufacturing as such---ie;out of plants---some operate out of basements so here we go with scale. What happens when company A cannot meet demand---supplier(in this case; Walthers) ends up backordering product. In some ways this made me get my nose out of joint to find out how to make my own sidings using my computer---paper that is. As far as injection molding of styrene---I'm still working on it. But as said in earlier post this is in order of scale between Ford issue---Walthers---or, in an earlier situation-when Chalk River was closed down and a major source of radioactive isotopes was taken out and hospitals were left scrambling.
So most of you are saying Walthers is the one that should be held responsible for their suppliers not being able to make enough product?
Modern manufacturing has changed drastically in the last 15 years, and this is part of the consequences. Lean manufacturing and Kanban systems have drastically changed the way manufacturers do business. Having inventory in a warehouse is now an evil sin in the manufacturing world. Bring a truck of raw material in today, manufacture it today and send it out the same day. Idle materials and finished good equals loss in profit. Unfortunately, this philosophy is not forgiving at all when it comes to large influxes of orders that are not foreseen at any given time. I would be interested to find out if Walthers utilizes a Kanban-like system for inventory control in their warehouses as well as the manufacturers they that are having problems keeping Walthers supplied with stock.
You can read more about Kanban here.
andrechapelon I did have two bad experiences with Ford, one of which actually put the lives of myself and family in danger.
Ford has done more for this country than you can ever imagine. How dare you be critical of their products?
They need to fix the problem and regain their past good reputation, just as Model Railroader itself seems to be doing.
Midnight RailroaderOdie Walthers AND Model Railroader have done more for this hobby then most of you could ever imagine. I will agree with this statement, but that doesn't make them immune to criticism about how they do their jobs. (In fact, some might say their current performance vs. their past performance is exactly the issue here.) But in any case, neither company did their part for the hobby out of altruism--they're both businesses, and their first goal is to make a profit. In order to do that, they have to offer their customers service that satisifies those customers. Has it occurred to you that this may have changed over the years? Given the number of dissatisified posters here, it seems that perhaps both are resting other laurels. This deference to for-profit companies baffles me. Do you give other long-time corporations this kind of pass when they deliever substandard service? For example, if you get a bad car, do you say, "But Ford has done a lot for this country?"
Odie Walthers AND Model Railroader have done more for this hobby then most of you could ever imagine.
Walthers AND Model Railroader have done more for this hobby then most of you could ever imagine.
I will agree with this statement, but that doesn't make them immune to criticism about how they do their jobs. (In fact, some might say their current performance vs. their past performance is exactly the issue here.)
But in any case, neither company did their part for the hobby out of altruism--they're both businesses, and their first goal is to make a profit. In order to do that, they have to offer their customers service that satisifies those customers. Has it occurred to you that this may have changed over the years? Given the number of dissatisified posters here, it seems that perhaps both are resting other laurels.
This deference to for-profit companies baffles me. Do you give other long-time corporations this kind of pass when they deliever substandard service? For example, if you get a bad car, do you say, "But Ford has done a lot for this country?"
Given that Kalmbach provides this site free of charge, it's no wonder malcontents come out of the woodwork to complain about all and sundry. There is no requirement to be an MR subscriber, there is no fee for use and appears that much of the dissatisfaction is all out of proportion to whatever defects either MR or Walthers have as companies.
Nobody actually needs model trains. The story is different with cars. If Walthers can't supply me with the loco I've always wanted or if MR doesn't publish exactly what I want to see published, there's no real harm. However, I did have two bad experiences with Ford, one of which actually put the lives of myself and family in danger. That's orders of magnitude different from the kvetching that goes on here.
I'd say no but at the same time I'm not going to go around aggravating myself with 'NEVER has ANYTHING' either. I think whatt I all crabby about is that while it may be true that all businesses are for profit they are more or less the only way that people manage to have jobs. I don't think that it is really efficient to go caving my head in by flailing at a basically supply management issue that involves MORE than just Walthers. When you start dealing with some small mom/pop operations that have never even thought through their side of the process of how they are going to meet demand ---if demand there is---then that is going to impact their'bottom line' as well.
We live in a world where the dollar bill has become the final arbitrator for everything---and we had better start looking for other ways of dealing with this---mine is through Christ and his message to all of us---Do unto others as we would have others do unto us.
Odie; well said---if it was not for them there would not be a lot of people in the hobby; besides which, look at when these guys started---I don't think any of the complainers we have now would even think of possibilities---
Some of you are incredibly short-sighted. Walthers AND Model Railroader have done more for this hobby then most of you could ever imagine.
With all the complaints about walthers and how terrible they are what I would like to know is why NO ONE has come up with a viable business plan themselves to COMPETE and possibly destroy this evil empire...
Seriously, if it is as bad as some of you are saying it is then this company should have the rep of say---Internet Trains or somesuch --- Who I think have FAR MORE backorders/noorders/mia's/who knows what than these guys. As noted above---modulo the gov't propensity of making things mediocre surely SOMEBODY, SOMEWHERE has the inttestinal fortitude to do the job BETTER if they so desire--- I've got to get off the
All the arguing re; Walthers just makes me irritated is all---I've been in countries that had bigger issues than this. If I had to wait a couple of months for something then at least i's be getting it ---what with piracy overseas etc we have it pretty darn good here...
I think its kinda funny and sad that when your looking through Walthers website you'll come across a product that is on sale. Then you look right next to the "on sale" and it says out of stock. Who puts stuff on sale that they dont have? Stupid, sloppy work. Also, I know more than a couple hobby shop owners and none of them have anything good to say about how Walthers treats them. They especally like it when Walthers has stuff on sale in there fliers that is cheaper than the wholesale price they offer the same product to the deallers.
Midnight Railroader While I am sure you had fun writing your post, I noticed that none of your "points" addressed the topic at hand.
While I am sure you had fun writing your post, I noticed that none of your "points" addressed the topic at hand.
As I seem to remember, the original "topic at hand" was that MR had posted some news concerning Walthers and LGB. So as far as I'm concerned, all of the posts on this thread from the second up to and including this one had nothing to do with the "topic at hand".
Maybe it's time to move on?
andrechapelon It's nice for you to defend Walthers. However, for a significant number of people, this site exists solely for the purpose of complaining about: 1. Model Railroader itself, which apparently hasn't done anything right since the 1980's (or 70's or 60's or 50's depending on your perspective). 2. Model railroad manufacturers/distributors who are out to gouge your average hobbyist and who lie, cheat and steal to pick everyone's pocket. Naturally, they're all operated by people who use guys like Bernie Ebbers, Dennis Kowslowski, Mike Milken, Ivan Boesky and Bernard Maddoff as their models for corporate behavior. 3. The death of craftsmanship and how Model Railroader and the manufacturers conspired to kill it. 4. How the hobby has gotten overpriced.
It's nice for you to defend Walthers. However, for a significant number of people, this site exists solely for the purpose of complaining about:
1. Model Railroader itself, which apparently hasn't done anything right since the 1980's (or 70's or 60's or 50's depending on your perspective).
2. Model railroad manufacturers/distributors who are out to gouge your average hobbyist and who lie, cheat and steal to pick everyone's pocket. Naturally, they're all operated by people who use guys like Bernie Ebbers, Dennis Kowslowski, Mike Milken, Ivan Boesky and Bernard Maddoff as their models for corporate behavior.
3. The death of craftsmanship and how Model Railroader and the manufacturers conspired to kill it.
4. How the hobby has gotten overpriced.
AMEN to that .I have an old LGB toy train boxed up in the store room but all my operating equipment is non-LGB . I hope that the increased frustration ,resulting from the Wathers connection ,boosts the market for the more competitive or at least more interesting lines
well I dont know much about wathers , but I do know lgb products as Im new to ho but I have gscale in the yard and Ive tryed them all,and none can beat lgb running day in day out ,the scale issue is why Im entering ho .g scale is and has been a joke every manufacter does it differant, lets see aristo 1/24 &1/29 ,usa 1/29 ,bachman 1/22,mth came in at 1/32, lgb well they build close to 1/25 but all runs on small radius track they started with others you better like changing youre radius and every thing else ...lgb was the best for running trains out side worth every dollar. and heres where it gets bad , I came to HO thinking prices would be more reasonable ,man this scale is getting up there, 25.00 for a box car ,I never paid more than 40 .00 for g scale and there huge ,now Im not making and issue cause I wont pay 25.00 Im a bargan hunter ....and I like the scale balence in HO , but when the bbq is hot ,the beer is cold.putt some lgb loccos on the tracks and turn your back on them and every body enjoys the show....thats my two $
Just for the record, I have no beef against either Walthers or LGB, only that I don't do business with either so I could care less about both. LGB failed to accurately gauge the competion, moved production to China, then failed to lower prices or build anything to a recognizable or consistant scale, and failed to bring out US prototypes. All of these things LGB's competition did as well as promoted technological advances. LGB felt they had the market locked in, they were wrong. So when you stick an automatic pistol to your business head and pull the trigger, what do you expect?
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
Has anybody stopped to consider that given the current economic climate, if Walther's were to go under (somehow I don't think they will get any "bailout" money if they did) we model railroaders would be pretty much screwed!
The same can be said about Kalmbach and hobby publications. I'm finding it more and more difficult to find RMC, but I hesitate to subscribe because I fear they may be the next magazine to bite the dust! Kalmbach has sucessfully monopolized the hobby press (not just model railroading, but scale modeling and other hobbies as well) like Walther's has a virtual monopoly on model railroad distrubution.
I don't think either is a good thing...
-George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
blownout cylinder I've only had 2 items backordered out of 24 items ordered through Walthers--that amounts to under 10%. Oh WOW. And TJ's point about an almost bankrupt LGB--points to another thing. If you can get the same product MADE in YOUR own country do your locals a favour---Buy their product.
I've only had 2 items backordered out of 24 items ordered through Walthers--that amounts to under 10%. Oh WOW.
And TJ's point about an almost bankrupt LGB--points to another thing. If you can get the same product MADE in YOUR own country do your locals a favour---Buy their product.
That may hold anywhere else but it isn't the case in the US where it seems the government plays a game of "let's see how many jobs we can force overseas this year." You want to know why we're in economic turmoil? Think abot that one for a change.
Irv
One Track Mind No, I wouldn't say folks were imagining out-of-stock items ontheir orders... but it does seem like people remember how thingswere ten years ago and not as they are today. It doesn't seem fair that Walthers and Horizon get attacked in themanner that they do sometimes. They don't need me to defend them,(and believe me, both of them do things that I wish were done differently)but when MR makes an effort to put out what would appear to be goodnews and Walthers is attacked for never having anything in stock... I thinkthat's a fallacy, and one that should not still be repeated for any newbiesto read this time of the year. I suppose in some business a 10% out rate is poor, for this business it'snot that bad... and certainly better than "Walthers never has anything." This week, I ordered 81 items from Walthers. 79 were in stock for a 97.5%fill rate. From where I sit, that's pretty good. Sometimes things are not that good, but most of the time, we're happywith the fill rates.
No, I wouldn't say folks were imagining out-of-stock items ontheir orders... but it does seem like people remember how thingswere ten years ago and not as they are today.
It doesn't seem fair that Walthers and Horizon get attacked in themanner that they do sometimes. They don't need me to defend them,(and believe me, both of them do things that I wish were done differently)but when MR makes an effort to put out what would appear to be goodnews and Walthers is attacked for never having anything in stock... I thinkthat's a fallacy, and one that should not still be repeated for any newbiesto read this time of the year.
I suppose in some business a 10% out rate is poor, for this business it'snot that bad... and certainly better than "Walthers never has anything."
This week, I ordered 81 items from Walthers. 79 were in stock for a 97.5%fill rate. From where I sit, that's pretty good.
Sometimes things are not that good, but most of the time, we're happywith the fill rates.
There's more, but my wife's making waffles and I have my priorities in order.
A friend on another forum posted this joke:
" A hobbyshop owner once told me a joke.
Have fun with your trains
Walthers is a fine company.
The non-Walthers/P2K/Life-Like stuff that they don't have in stock is not because of them but because of the manufacturers. Walthers is only their distributor.
Ever notice that Walthers' own products are almost all in stock and of if not have an expected date?
If there is no "expected date" listed that is because there has not been enough interest in the item to warrant another run.
And they generally list things at full MSRP so they are not competing with their own dealers. (walthers.com is a convenience for the model railroader and not their primary business.)
Even still, there are plenty of items on Sale at walthers.com at any given moment.
And those lower prices get passed on to the dealers as well.
Craig
DMW
and a MERRY CHRISTMAS to all of you---so there HHRRUMPH!!!
We will add your distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted