WALMART

[brothaslide]

As an owner of a company and someone who has hired employees, I was remined of two temps I hired about a year and a half ago - we'll just call him the first one Joe. Joe was a friend of mine for 12 years at that time and he had a computer science degree and had been laid off for quite some time. I knew he needed the money so I hired him for a big project as a temporary. I paid him around $10 an hour so he could work and get some money in his pocket. I also hired a college kid as well, we'll call him Bob. I paid Bob the same wage. Bob, the college kid, was a much harder and deligent worker than Joe. Joe even had the nerve to complain slightly that I should be paying them more money after he had a long hard day. In the end, I paid Bob, the college kid, a bonus for a job well done and simply gave Joe a hand shake and thanked him for his service.

People should be paid a "living wage" but they need to earn it.

Sean

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp


So how can I be a strong supporter of free enterprise and still push for a livable minimum wage? Because I feel that the current minimum wage does not accurately value the labor provided and is only possible because people without advanced education or skills have no other choice. As long as all employers pay the same minimum for that type of work, the workers have to either accept the wage or not work at all.

Where I live there are not many people available for minimum wage type jobs. About 85% of the local High School grads continue their education, and relatively few of the High School kids hold jobs. There just isn’t the usual supply of people looking for entry level jobs. Because of this local stores, fast food restaurants, etc. offer starting pay of about $8.00 per hour. Contrary to the usual arguments, we don’t have stores and restaurants closing in droves because they have to pay so much for labor. If fact our city has some of the most profitable retail in the metro area. I believe this shows that the true value of entry level work is considerably higher than the existing minimum wage. It also shows that companies CAN pay higher level wages and still be profitable. [:)]

That's one of the points I was getting at, if no one will work at minimum wage the companies will raise the entry level wage to a point where folks will accept it....Like any commodity the price will rise or fall to a point that acceptable both to employer and employee.... with minimum wage being a minimum price for the cost of labor per hour. The companies however, have to decise whether to pass that increase in overhead costs to the customers or accept a lesser profit.

Continuing to increase the minumum wage, continues to increase wages period (and therefore overhead...prices.. costs). Not matter what you set the minimum wage to it won't be enough. Minimum wage should be an incentive to get it going with your life..if not accept the fact that the world needs ditch diggers too.

Yes I am conservative, but not as much as you think......My family was on welfare at one time..got itself together and got off, and I put myself through college. So I in fact "do know what it's like to have nuthin". That's why I have such a hard time with the mininum wage / welfare society stuff.

I agree to disagree.

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by deschane

Roadtrp, I don't think anyone can confuse you for being liberal! You may just not be conservative enough from dharmon's point of view!

Actually, I AM a liberal… as evidenced by the fact that I support the concept of a livable minimum wage. I believe that anyone who works 40 hours a week should be able to live on what they make. The current minimum wage does not provide that.

I also support the progressive tax structure, feeling that those who have most benefited from the American system should pay a larger percentage of their income to support that system.

The last Republican I voted for was Ronald Reagan in 1980. So I really do consider myself a liberal.

But I also support free enterprise. I think the American economic system is the best on earth, and think it is wonderful that someone like Sam Walton can start with nothing and build it into a hugely profitable enterprise.

So how can I be a strong supporter of free enterprise and still push for a livable minimum wage? Because I feel that the current minimum wage does not accurately value the labor provided and is only possible because people without advanced education or skills have no other choice. As long as all employers pay the same minimum for that type of work, the workers have to either accept the wage or not work at all.

Where I live there are not many people available for minimum wage type jobs. About 85% of the local High School grads continue their education, and relatively few of the High School kids hold jobs. There just isn’t the usual supply of people looking for entry level jobs. Because of this local stores, fast food restaurants, etc. offer starting pay of about $8.00 per hour. Contrary to the usual arguments, we don’t have stores and restaurants closing in droves because they have to pay so much for labor. If fact our city has some of the most profitable retail in the metro area. I believe this shows that the true value of entry level work is considerably higher than the existing minimum wage. It also shows that companies CAN pay higher level wages and still be profitable. [:)]

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

"[i]
Labor, like anything else is a commodity, ...

Unfortunately that is the attitude of too many companies. Labor is people - it is us. It's sad when people are treated the same as a lump of coal by the corporations of America. That's why there has to be government oversight and intervention. It's not always pleasant nor is it cheap, but it is necessary.
Enjoy
Paul

Goverment oversight is required at times, but it's not always the answer. There is a pervasive culture in this country that wants to reward laziness and lack of motivation and puni***hose who have acheived something. At the end of twenty years military service, I am entitled to a pension for the work I have done. The same should not be said of someone that chooses (and I say chooses not to work, because there are jobs out there, if you want to work).

If labor is not a commodity then what do you place as the value of your time? If you pay a kid to mow your lawn becasue you can, then you are establishing a price for the labor he is performing that you do not desire to do.

The companies that do the best are those that take care of their employees and treat them like "people". That is the management style they choose to follow and for every action they make there is a cost and level of return. There is no requirement to treat them in any way other than those set by the government (EEO, OSHA, etc). Period. There is no law that says a supervisor has to even have face to face contact with an employee or know their name. But on the other hand, in states like CA, the level of government intervention is so great, that they are driving the medium sized businesses out. There is no incentive for mom and pop to expand and become the next Sam Walton, because the next step becomes very expensive with regards to benefits, EEO,, etc. So when Walmart comes to town with the infrastructure already in place to support large scale operations there is no competition. Govt intervention is req'd but in moderation, just like everything else.

[Anonymous]

Well stated, Paul!!!

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

"[i]
Labor, like anything else is a commodity, ...

Unfortunately that is the attitude of too many companies. Labor is people - it is us. It's sad when people are treated the same as a lump of coal by the corporations of America. That's why there has to be government oversight and intervention. It's not always pleasant nor is it cheap, but it is necessary.
Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

Roadtrp, I don't think anyone can confuse you for being liberal! You may just not be conservative enough from dharmon's point of view!

[Roadtrp]

Sorry.. I can't get too excited about the RFID stuff. In an age where people are tracking every stinking click I make on my computer mouse, I can't get real upset that someone is tracking that I bought a brown sweater and that they now know where I live.

Heck, that's better than folks knowing that I hang out at places where they discuss weird toy fetishes that certain adult males spend massive amounts of money on.
[;)][;)]

[Anonymous]

Interesting thread. I first shied away from Wally-World when I became aware of how they were very effectively putting the 'mom-and-pop' shops out of business. Then I heard about RFID's and how Wal-mart was the catalyst for this new technology and the implications involved.You can read more on this at CASPIAN (consumers against supermarket privacy invasion and numbering)...www.nocards.org
If you take the time to research RFID's and what implications they propose you may change your view on what Walmart is REALLY 'offering' you. I once spent many hundreds of my dollars each year at wall-world... but no more. I'm sure Sam Walton didn't envision this direction for his company but it's out of his hands now.

[Roadtrp]

How cool!!

I've been criticized for being too conservative AND too liberal on the same thread on the same day!!

Ain't America grand?? [:)][(-D][:)]

[dharmon]

"As long as employers ARE ALLOWED to pay these wages, they will."

....hmmmm, you are absolutely correct, and why shouldn't they.

Labor, like anything else is a commodity, supply and demand, and you most assuredly get what you pay for at least on the low end. When stores can't find anyone to work for minimum wage, they raise the wages to a level at which folks will work there. Then they pass the savings on to you.....

Walmart pays minimum wage or better to its employees. You want a better job, get an education or experience under your belt, get a degree and market yourself. If minimum wage isn't good enough to sustain your style of life, either accept the fact or do something about it.

"If you really want to accomplish something you need to get past Wal-Mart and support a national livable minimum wage. Good luck with that as long as Dubya remains in office."

No offense but this sounds like the same California drivel that makes life out here so expensive.....Get the government to do something about it! Let's reward folks not to get an education and to better themselves....it's already the CA way, let's go nationwide with it. By the way, minimum wages vary by state..CA minimum wage is higher for someone working at McDonalds than a serviceman with less than 2 years of service.......now how bout some fries with that!

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by deschane

The clincher for me is I would hate to ever need to work at a Walmart as I would not be able to make a living wage there.

I agree with you on the living wage concept, but Wal-Mart is not the only company paying those wages. I just did an internet search on Wal-Mart wages and Target wages and found that although the wages at each store vary by location, the overall wage scales are virtually identical. My guess is that if you looked at Sears or Kohl’s or any other retailer, you would find much the same. Wal-Mart has to pay about what other employers pay for similar positions, or no one would work for them. The only difference is that since Wal-Mart is the largest, people have made them the focus of their dissatisfaction.

As long as employers ARE ALLOWED to pay these wages, they will. If you really want to accomplish something you need to get past Wal-Mart and support a national livable minimum wage. Good luck with that as long as Dubya remains in office.

[Anonymous]

Why I hate Walmart? In actuality, I don't care to shop in any discount warehouse type store. I feel Walmart is the best example of this. Shopping period is not high on my list of things to spend my time doing, unless it's something I am really interested in or truly need. I don't need Walmart, to get everything I need at FAIR PRICES. The clincher for me is I would hate to ever need to work at a Walmart as I would not be able to make a living wage there.

My definition of a success in capitalism, is a company that does not simply provide profits for the shareholders and corporation, wealth for its' principals and a living wages for upper management, but for all the employees. If this definition of what I feel capitalism is, does not coincide with yours... I'm cool with that!

[gti338]

I beleave that Wal-mart will heart all train modelers everywere and we should support our local hobby shops along with the manufacsures as they will horner the factory warnties and Wal-mart doesnot

[areibel]

First off, for all the self righteous types- I am not insulting overweight or low income people. I am insulting the choices some people make, be they fat, thin, rich or poor.
Some people have no other choice but to shop at Wal Mart, OK. But for everyone that
thinks that the sun rises and sets on Wally World wake up! In small town America it is not everyone's dream to set the world on fire. If you want to open a small grocery, hardware, whatever, OK. Do it right and you can make a respectable living, give some people decent jobs, make a difference in your small community. If you don't provide the service then you don't last long. The difference is when the big ole mega store opens up, deliberatly prices their inventory at below what you can and waits for you to die a slow death. Then they can do what they want. For you uninformed types, read a little history. Try Ida Tarbell and Standard Oil, for starters. The difference in the new monopoly is they don't even try to buy you out, they slowly crush you. Nothing illegal, but I seriously doubt the morality of it all.
Everyone is so worried about Athern and Horizon Hobbies!

[Anonymous]

Well, Monopoly comes to my mind when I hear the word Wal-Mart . I don't shop there anymore than I have to. Mark I couldn't agree with you more , Just wait until Wal-Mart has a store every few miles & runs out all of the other stores. Then we can sit back and watch all the prices skyrocket then. I have a few friends that worked for Wal-Mart ( Wally-World ) in the past & after learning what was realy going on behind closed doors, It kind of makes you sick ! PS; I probably said too much already, So I better go hide my wallet because I can't afford a lawyer to save me from a lawsuit filled against me also. "Good topic"

[Anonymous]

Ok, Thank you Antonio for your insight to the chow problem. Much appreciated!

I knew the words "Distribution chain" will come up sooner or later. I feel this thread is beginning to spin and fracture into several different lines of debate. The Distribution chain means Trucks. And alot of them.

If you wanted to drive a truck into a walmart and not have any problems.. your options is to either drive for walmart, sign onto a carrier with walmart drop and hook priveldges or with several contract carriers that operate effectively as a owner operator extension to walmart's fleet.

Outside carriers were usually required to arrive within 15 minutes of an appointment time or they will lose the dock and be made to be delayed hours or a day. Outside carriers usually needed to transfer funds to walmart for unloading of the cargo. The control of the cargo regarding damage, lost or missing items are very very good.

Usually items will get to a walmart shelve in good condition but occasionally a damaged item will be discovered after the customer took it home. Nothing is perfect.

I dont count social class or status or income at all when I consider who goes to walmart. It is irrevelant here. Now that since this is brought up, I will offer to you that for example in Gallup New Mexico there is a first class walmart superstore. Except that is all Indian and some Immigrants that shop there. Whites and other races were in the big minority in Gallup.

My point is that regional walmarts now reflect the community it is located in. What a difference from the downtowns that once held this distinction.

Lee

[bcammack]

Don't try and confuse them with reason. [:)]

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by deschane

How can you possibly assert; "If Walmark sucks, capitalism sucks"? You are making a statement about what capitalism is, based on one companies method of conducting business.

I don't worry about the farmer, either! However, I don't worry about him because with only 100 chickens, this farmer was never in the chicken business, anyway!

Wal-Mart played by the rules of capitalism, and came out as the most successful retailer in America. If that doesn't mean Wal-Mart is an example of capitalism at work, I don't know what is.

Wal-Mart did not start out big enough to go in and crush "Ma and Pa" stores. But where the other Ma and Pa stores wanted to keep doing things the same way they had for the past 100 years, Walton looked at improving the efficiency of the distribution chain, and by doing so was able to offer products at lower cost than most competitors. Wal-Mart has computer information systems that are the envy of everyone in the industry.

So are we somehow supposed to dump on Wal-Mart just because they are successful? Every Ma and Pa store in the country had EXACTLY the same chance of doing what Sam Walton did. The difference is he did it, and they didn't. Capitalism, as it should, rewards the most efficient producer. [:)]

[AntonioFP45]

HighIron,

On railpicture.net I saw a picture of Candian National #5669's cab interior. This is an SD75I with the wide cab. The view was from the Fireman's (I guess now, conductor's)side. There was a small stainless steel electric cook stove on a a desk. It looked like it was built in, so you may have a good point, and crews on long runs can still enjoy some decent chow.

Areibel,You have a point there, but we have to be a little tolerant. I've had almost nearly identical experiences waiting in line behind "what would appear to be" women or men in very low income brackets buying things that are unhealthy or that seem to make no sense at all. But we still need to be patient and tolerant (as difficult as it may be!) Everyone has a story and we may have no idea what that person that's messy, wears tacky clothing, or a has a body odor is or has been experiencing.

A few years ago, there was a story about a man in California who was living in poverty like conditions and was struggling financially. Then they showed his picture: It was former 1960s Mission Impossible star Greg Morris!

Just something to think about! Peace Out, Amigos! [8)][sigh][:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

I was a Wal-Mart hater until I discovered the only one I was hurting was myself. Face it -- they have darned good products at darned low prices. If Wal-Mart sucks, capitalism sucks.

When you go buy your factory-farm produced Gold'N Plump chicken at the grocery store, do you sit around and worry about some family farmer with a 100 chickens in his coop being put out of business? No. Me neither.

Things change. You can lead, follow, or get out of the way, but you can't stand still.

How can you possibly assert; "If Walmark sucks, capitalism sucks"? You are making a statement about what capitalism is, based on one companies method of conducting business.

I don't worry about the farmer, either! However, I don't worry about him because with only 100 chickens, this farmer was never in the chicken business, anyway!

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by areibel

Second, it never fails, I always get stuck behind the 300 pound woman in dirty pink stretch pants that takes half an hour at the check out, she has to separate the items she can use her food stamps on from the cigarettes, Diet Coke and National Enquirer.

Wow, not only is this whole Wal-Mart rant off topic, now it's spinning way out of control and we're insulting low income people.

I think we need to give this whole thing a LONG rest and get back to MRR related issues.

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by areibel


Second, it never fails, I always get stuck behind the 300 pound woman in dirty pink stretch pants that takes half an hour at the check out, she has to separate the items she can use her food stamps on from the cigarettes, Diet Coke and National Enquirer.

Give me a freaking break!!

The suburb I live in is fairly well off. Latest census data (1999-2000) lists median income of 78,328 and median home value as 198,300. The parking lot of our local Wal-Mart has many Mercedes, Beemers and Lexi. Does the fact that well-off people shop at Wal-Mart mean it is automatically a good store? Heck no.

But the fact that some people of lesser means shop at Wal-Mart doesn't make it a bad store either. And the weight remarks go WAY over the edge. [V][V]

[Anonymous]

My biggest complaint about WallyWorld is that they must have the worst inventory control of any business on the the planet! When they're out of something, it will be weeks if not MONTHS before they have it re-stocked.

That and the fact that if you don't get there when they open at 7AM, you have to park in the next zip code.

[Anonymous]

I grew up in a small town in East Texas. We had 2 grocery stores and a fairly vibrant downtown area. Closest stores of significance were about 15 miles away. Then Wal-Mart came to town. Many of the downtown businesses dried up and one grocery store closed. And guess what became of the Wal-Mart? It's boarded up now!!! Killed competition and opened a store in another town!!

They built a "super center" near where I live now. My wife who has many years experience in retail (with a large chain of grocery stores) decided to apply there. The wage they offered was an insult!! Kids off the street would be payed almost as much and they offered her only enough hours so she would'nt be eligible for benefits!!

I shopped there for a brief time after it opened, but got tired of 30 registers and only 6 of them open. A lot of 300 pounders in this store!

Haven't been to Wal Mart in 4 years and hope I never have to again. We are lower middle income but will pay a little more to avoid Wal Mart at all costs!!

[Jetrock]

Wal-Mart is proof that nothing good ever came out of Arkansas. I still like the idea of a "joke" layout with a big Wal-Mart on one side and a bunch of local-business type structures with boarded-over windows and "Out Of Business" signs pasted to the front...

Their phony patriotism and the hideous merchandise turns me off. But then, I tend to avoid chain stores whenever possible anyhow...

And yes, the analogy between Industrial Revolution "robber barons" and Wal-Mart is an apt one. The assumption that a corporation is beholden to nobody except their stockholders is a fallacious one--and the currently-espoused legal concept of corporations as an immortal, all-powerful being is one dangerous both to democracy and true capitalism.

[Anonymous]

Hmm. That is awful.

They have these so called self check outs now. You will do it yourself. What gets me is that the bags go on a pad and in the data base is the EXACT weight of every item. One lady tried to sneak a few more tic tacks into her bag and the computer in a loud voice said "Unauthorized item in bag, please remove from bag and rescan" She did not know how it works and her eyes got THIS BIG. he he.

IF they open a walmart with a grocery store in my town they will not be able to compete with my local grocery chain. My local Grocery chain is family owned and they ship thru a non-union food distrubition system and buy thier milk and eggs locally. The meat comes in from the state and is cut in store. Wal mart ships meat in from large ranches out west.

In regards to prices, I have only this to say...When Microsoft's Train Stimulator first came out a few years ago retail was about $58.00. I waited 9 months. The price fell to 29.00 and another 4 months finally down to 19.00 I bought it. Worth it too. On software when prices hit 19.00 (Or actually 18.70 - Trade secret for items to be discontinued) it's time to buy it before it's gone.

Walmart for me impacts my Trucking experience with support for being able to say... go to Laramie Wyoming (One of my favorite brands of bacon can be gotten there) load up on 100 dollars worth of food and head out west. Totally independant of the truckstop. My spouse would cook while I drove. Saved us a great deal of money.

I wonder if Railroad crews get to cook while on the rails. Surely that big deisel can offer 110 volts at 60 hertz for the coffee pot and steak broiler.

Just my two cents

Lee

[areibel]

The thing I can't figure out about Wally World is they proclaim the lowest prices, then in the same breath that they'll beat any competitior's prices- If they're the lowest, who's there to compete with??
My wife shops there, and she's a smart shopper. She's noticed that they have specials for sure, but the other day to day items are as much or more than the local chain stores.
If you point that out, OK they'll match it, but unless you asy something they won't do you any favors.
The two things I dislike the most? First, the big pandemonium they make about being the all American store- yeah, the give a lot of people (low paying) jobs, and sell some American goods, but they're out to make a buck at almost any cost.
Second, it never fails, I always get stuck behind the 300 pound woman in dirty pink stretch pants that takes half an hour at the check out, she has to separate the items she can use her food stamps on from the cigarettes, Diet Coke and National Enquirer.

[easyaces]

The local Wal-Mart Supercenter that serves my local area does not stock any model railroad items, so I have to make a 30min. trip to Lafayette,Ind. to my fav model RR store which is very well stocked, the owner very friendly & helpful, and if He does not have what I'm looking for, he will order it no exra charge ! That Wal-mart would ever go that route to bring in Model RR supplies in store around my area is yet to be seen, and I think is at the discretion of the store managers, and regional supers, and if one near you does, thats an exception!