I am in the process of modeling a late '50s Sunset Limited, and have run across some pics and info showing that the Sunset had 1 or 2 heavyweight baggage cars in the consist starting around that time. Of course I haven't found a good pic yet, but one I looked at was taken from about mid-train, and one of the baggage cars looked like a Harriman car, but I couldn't make out the other one. Does anyone know what types of heavyweight baggage cars would have been found in the consist in the late '50s? I hate to disturb a beautiful all Budd consist like this, but I am trying to maintain a little but of prototype fidelity here (althought I think the mix of equipment may be sort of cool).
BTW, this is in HO, and I am using USP styrene sides. I just hope that I got the upper, single strip of fluting in the right place so the red strip looks right. I cut out a strip off the decal sheet to use as a guide, so I should be good.
Andy Sperandeo MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
SperandeoHello Smitty, The most common baggage-express cars on the "Sunset" when I used to watch it in New Orleans were the solid gray economy baggage cars, like the car show in the September 1993 "Model Railroader," pages 74 and 75. Those were built by St. Louis Car Co. in 1960, however, so they're a bit new for the period you want to model. I'd recommend that you buy the book, "Sunset Limited," by Jarel, Ryan, and Signor, from the Southern Pacific Historic and Technical society at http://sphts.org/index.php. It's a bit of an investment, but given the time you're putting into your model it should be well worth it. If you really want to go for it, the SP society also has a very detailed book on that road's head-end equipment. Good luck, Andy
I have been looking to get that book, but have been trying to justify the cost, and think I have come to that point. I have found a bit on the internet, but no near enough to get things done the way I would like to.
The economy baggages came to mind, but as you pointed out (and I discovered after some investigation), they are a bit late for my period. I have also got to figure out exactly which 4-4-2 sleepers were showing up on that train at that time, but I believe they were just the lightwieght, smooth side cars that SP had a large pool of.
Thanks
I normally don't bump threads originated by myself, but want to give this thread one more shot at some visibility, so "Bump", and thanks in advance for any replies.
The train will be much more interesting if you do disturb the lightweight look of this train.
I totally agree you should acquire the Jarel, Ryan, and Signor book. Among its contents are various train consist lists. For example, on page 172 is a listing of the April-May 1959 consist. These included four headend cars, a baggage dorm, eight 44 and 48-seat chair cars with a 32 seat hamurger grill-lounge car in the middle of them, a 39-seat lounge, a 4-4-2, and three 10-6s. Individual car numbers are shown.
Except for the RPO/baggage car, the headend cars containing mail and express consisted of 70 and 80-foot heavyweights. Most were painted two-tone gray, but some were simulated stainless steel. Of course, if you want the real story on individual cars, you need to acquire the several volumes on SP passenger cars the society has published. The three volumes released so far will set you back a bit less than the price of a single Coach Yard painted brass passenger car.
Mark
In your period, motive power was typically eclectic. On page 169 of the Sunset book is a January 1959 picture showing an A-B-A set consisting of an E9A, E7B, and PA2, all wearing Daylight dress. On page 170 is a March 1959 picture showing an A-A-B-B (elephant style) set with a Daylight PA2, Black Widow E9A, a Dalight E7B, and a solid dark Lark gray E7B. Wow, that was a great train!
markpierce In your period, motive power was typically eclectic. On page 169 of the Sunset book is a January 1959 picture showing an A-B-A set consisting of an E9A, E7B, and PA2, all wearing Daylight dress. On page 170 is a March 1959 picture showing an A-A-B-B (elephant style) set with a Daylight PA2, Black Widow E9A, a Dalight E7B, and a solid dark Lark gray E7B. Wow, that was a great train! Mark
The AABB consist that you mentioned above is one of the many reasons I want to model this train during that period. I really enjoy trains such as the Super Chief/El Cap that were pulled by matching power, but I think that a power consist with that many "flavors" is really cool.
As far as what you stated above in regards to the baggage cars, I do think that it would really add some extra "flair" to the train having the mixed equipment, especially considering that those 4-4-2s were mixed in there. The only thing that I am really looking forward to, and dreading at the same time is figuring out how to model the blunt end sleeper.
I will admit to one thing: that hodge-podge of motive power such as you describe in your posting gives a train in the waning years of Class I passenger operation a certain fascination and that is the way I would run mine on a layout set in the sixties.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Hey Smitty,
I´m also planning to model the SP Sunset Limited, but I want to model the train from the time between 1950 and 1954. I already have a PA-1 A-A set (and a black GS-4), which is a matching power for that period. Since there are no plastic and ready to run Sunset Limited cars out on the market (I cannot afford those beautiful Coach Yard or Key Imports Sunset brass cars), I see myself forced to build my own train with the car sides of Union Station Products. I never built any train before in my life, so I have a couple of questions.
Can you tell me what do you take for the roof and floor of the carshell? Union Station Products is only producing cars sides, so I need something for the roof, the floor and the doorsides. I found some nice core kits for corrugated Budd cars from Train Station products, that are same in length as the carsides from USP, so this combination fits. Did you use those core kits? Do these core kits have holes for installing the trucks and couplers or do you have to drill them by yourslef?
They also produce a plastic blunt end observation end roof section, but I have no idea how to install this on the USP/TSP 10-6 sleeper that should be the blunt end sleeper. Also I don´t have no idea how to apply a red signal light on that end roof section. But if you want to have the red lighted tail sign with the Sunset logo you can by this drumhead at Tomar Industries. I will definetly buy one even if I will be not able to model the blunt end of the last 10-6 sleeper. So the train has a at least a significant end sign with that lighted drumhead logo.
But what about trucks, wheels and couplers? Which one´s do you use? And do I also need a casing for the couplers or so? I´m asking because I don´t know if I should just need couplers and that´s it?
Here is my list of those itmes that I found to be the right thing for the HO Sunset:
Walthers pair of silver 4-wheel passenger trucks with 36 inch wheels, 2 x Walthers silver 6-wheel passenger car truck with no wheels (for the 6-wheel trucked RPO/Baggage), 12 pieces of Kadee 36 inch wheels for the RPO/Baggage 6-wheel trucks, Walthers passenger car detail kit for the underbody details and IHC´s passenger interiors, which fit the length of the TSP/USP core kit/car side shells. About the couplers I´m not sure, I simply don´t know which may be the best...
And which silver color do you use to paint the car shell? Do you use the Microscale decals? (I think there are 2 decal packs for the Sunset, one featuring the white script and logos, and another one featuring the red stripes).
It would be very great for me if you could answer my questions if possible.
Regards,
Daniel
I am using Train Station Products core kits and quite a few detail parts from them. They produce trucks that are close enough as well. Actually I have also found that end steps from Bethlehem Car Works are a good fit, although I can't recall the particular part number at the moment.
Once I get home today, I can post some pics of cars that I have already started, as well as some of the detail parts that I am using. I try to stay as close to prototype as possible, so this should get you on the right track. So far this has been a really fun project, and am looking forward to getting this train a rollin'!!
Hey Daniel, I haven't forgot about you. I haven't had a lot of time to get to this, and have done a lot of research that I would be more than happy to share with you. I know how much of a pain it can be to start a project like this from scratch.
The Union Station Products sides are very well done, and the dimensions are fairly decent. They come with floorplans, prototype photos of both sides of the cars, and very detailed instructions. The glazing is cut out, so you can install the glazing after painting. On the baggage cars, the glazing in the doors is pre-masked, so you don't have to mess with that either, although some of the masking pulled away from those windows, so I used masking tape, and cut around the cut for the window.
Gluing the clear acrylic sides to the wihite styrene side can be tricky. I have developed my wn method that works very well, but must be performed carefully. I use a small clamp on one end to clamp the two sides together, making sure everything is lined up and even. I then work my way away from the clamped end, allowing capillary action from a thin ACC to glue the sides together. It may take a couple of practice rounds, but you will find that the capillary action will completely fill in everything.
With the TSP core kits, you may notice that the roofs may be a little warped up towards the center (from the ends). I have been straightening them out using "almost" boiling water, and applying slight downward pressure towards the center, while holding an end in each hand. It may take a couple of attempts, but they will straighten. I then glue the ends to the roof using Faller "Expert" plastic cement. Just make sure that the ends are aligned and centered on the roof. I then glue a strip of Evergreen 105 along the strip on the roof that the sides glue to. You will notice that the edge that the sides glue to on the core kit ends are a little bit wider than the roof, so the additional styrene helps even things out.
After all that dries, test fit the sides in the core kit. You will notice that the sides are a bit long for the cor kit, and you will need to sand down one end of the sides to make them fit. You will need to use ACC to glue the sides to the core kit. Just go slowly about this and make sure while you are gluing that you don't get any large gaps between the sides and the roof. This will take some practice, and don't be too socked if you screw something up. Once you get your process down, it is easy.
With the fluting, you will notice that there is a seam on the core kit ends on the edge of the end. I use that seam as a guide for the length of my cuts. The edge of my fluting should come right to the seam, and no all the way to the end. For the fluting below the windows, I glue the fluting just far enough over the line scribed into the side to cover it up. For the upper fluting strip, I cut out a strip of the letterboard striping from the Microscale decals for the Sunset Limited letterboard striping and used that as a guide for gluing. Once I got that measurement, I measured from the fluting under the windows, penciled in some dash marks along the side, and then took a straight edge and made one solid mark across the side as a guide for the upper fluting strip. I again used Faller "Expert" to glue the fluting on, but don't use a lot, or else you could warp the fluting. Again, this is something that will take practice. And if you get a little bit of glue on the sides around the fluting, let it dry, and sand it smoth with some sanding sticks. If you try to remove the excess glue while it is still wet, you may do more damage than good.
I use the prototype pics I have found on line, and the pics that come with the cars for identification, and placement of underbody details. Although you will not use all the details included with the kit, I would suggest purchasing Train Station Products kit #461. This will come with a bulk of the details that you will be using to detail the underbody. Having all this stuff in one kit will allow you to identify what you will need to purchase seperately in order to detail all your cars. The important thing is that it includes the Budd battery boxes, Frigidaire ACs/compressors, and the propane carriers. Again, all the details that come in that kit are available seperately. I am going to be using Train Station Products #478 for the belt driven compressors for the ACs. They come with an etched metal, see-through belt guard that looks really nice
For the trucks, I am using Train Station Products kit #455 (except for the bagage/RPO). That is the closest thing on the market in plastic that I could find for a prototypical truck for these cars (there are special instructions in the kit for the Sunset cars). For the baggage/RPO I am using trucks from The Coach Yard: http://www.thecoachyard.com/Pages/AllImages.lasso?RecId=319 . They are pricey, but are the only prototypical trucks I could find. These are somewhat oddball trucks, so I went ahead a purchased them. I am still trying to figure out how to adapt them to the TSP core kit, but I haven't really put much thought into it yet.
For roof vents, I am using the Budd chicken wire type roof vents from Train Station Products. I sand the bottoms down using a "fine" sanding stick to thin them out a little so they look better and are easier to work around the contour of the roof.
For the end steps, I am using Bethlehem Car Works #86. I haven't found a good fit for the baggage/dorm or baggage/RPO for steps yet, but I am looking and will find something. They are almost a perfect fit. I am also using the RPO window bars from Bethlehem. That part number is #93.
That is about all I have been working on up to this point. Below are some pics of this mess:
Hello Smitty,
thank you very much for the interesting and detailed information and pictures. It will help me a lot when I start this project!
Here I still have some questions:
What kind of silver color will you use to paint the cars? And how will you paint them?
Are you also planing to install interiors and interior lighting?
Do you use that Faller glue for everything or do you also use some other kinds of glues?
What couplers will you use and what else do you need for adapting them?
Will your cars be "openable"? I mean will you be able to open them or is everything (end doors, carsides, floor) glued together?
And I didn´t understand the following sentence of you:"I am still trying to figure out how to adapt them to the TSP core kit, but I haven't really put much thought into it yet." But on the pictures I can see that the trucks are already adaptetd to the floor of the core kits, or did you just put them in position for the pictures? And are there no holes alreday drilled in the floor?
Great work overall!
By the way: if you have any idea how to model the blunt end of the last 10-6 Sleeper, please share your thoughts. I have no idea for that yet, and I only found that blunt ended roof end section at Walthers, but that of course is not the solution of the probem.
For paint, I am going to be using Alclad paint. It is a metalizer, and there are a couple of threads in regards to this subject. If you type "Alclad" into the search, you should be able to come up with something.
Iam definately installing interiors, but I am not sure about the lighting. I think that I may spend the extra money, and spring for the Red Cap interior details instead of the Palace Car Company stuff that I have been using. I also have some old advertisements that have pretty accurate representations of the interior colors. I don't know if I mentioned this before, but the USP sides come with floorplan drawings which makes life really nice.
I use the Faller glue for everything except gluing the clear styrene to the white styrene and core kits. The only two types of adhesives I have had to use thus far is thin ACC, and Faller plastic cement. I do keep different consistencies of ACCs around for different applications as needed.
My cars will be openable in that the entire car bodies lift off the floor. The ends, vestibules, and roofs are all glued together.
In order to shim the trucks up high enough to clear the bottom of the car body for the 3 axle Coach Yard trucks for the baggage/rpo, it raises the car higher than the other cars. The two axle trucks are just fine on all the other cars, and put the cars at the correct height (of course this is using TSP trucks with TSP core kits). These trucks were designed to be used with brass cars imported by The Coach Yard, so I didn't expect everything to fall into place. I think that I will have to sand the body sill up a bit along the bottom to "make" these work. I just really want to use those trucks since they are the exact prototype, and just look really cool in general.
I have been kinda slow with this project since I have had a lot of stuff going on this time of the year, but will keep things posted as I progress.
There is something else you may want to look in to. I noticed on the builder photos (at least that is what I believe they are) of the cars that is included with the USP sides, they show the cars with full width diaphragms. Honestly I never knew these cars had full width diaphragms, and would tend to think they were replaced with standard diaphragms fairly early on. I know that for the era I am modeling, I don't have to worry about it, but for you, this may be something you want to research. American Limited Models and The Coach Yard both make some nice full width diaphragms. I am thinking about going with the Hi Tech Details diaphragms for my cars, but they are a bit pricey. They sure look nice though.
I have had really good luck with the American Limited diaphragms in the past, and am familiar with the installation, so I probably will stick with them. The installation of the Hi Tech kits can be a bit of a pain.
I haven't had to use them yet (although I do have some), but The Coach Yard also makes something called a "Darwin" coupler pocket that is an adjustable coupler pocket so you gan adjust the spacing between cars. I think those would help a lot to get the diaphragms "just right".
Thanks again for the information.
I still need the info if there are already holes drilled inside the floor of the core kit for installing the trucks and couplers (coupler pockets), or do you have to drill them by yourself...
I will start my Sunset Limited in late 2009 or early 2010, and I know that it will last long until it will be finally ready to hit the rails in full function. Until then my GS-4 and PA-1 have to pull freight trains...
I will definetly install interior lighting, which will be able to be turned on and off digitally. As for interiors I will use the ones from IHC. The diner, coffe shop and lounge will all feature the same diner interior, since there aren´t no interiors for coffee shops and lounges at IHC. But I think it will work out fine. I will also produce my own blinds for these three service cars, and the sleepers will receive white blinds on some windows. Plus I will seat passengers on every single seat. I love when my trains are full of people. And I´m also thinking about painting the IHC diner interior for the lounge car pink, so that it represents the french quarter style of the original car. For the diner and coffee shop I will draw dishes/plates on every table. I did that on my Super Chief diner, and it really looks nice when the car is lighted and you take a closer look.
As for diaphragms I don´t care that much about them. I think it´s not even a good idea to apply them in my case, since my train will run through 18" curves (or even more narrow), and maybe this could be too narrow if the cars also feature diaphragms.
By the way: I have an entire book about the Sunset Limited from the SPHS, if you want some nice pictures and information about the train from those years that you model, I can make photos of these sheets with my cam and send them to your email adress.
There are holes in the floors, but you may want to thread them for the screw of your choice. There is also an area at the end of the floors for a pad that Detail Associates makes that will put a Kadee coupler box at the correct height for couplers. You will need to drill a hole throught the floor to mount the coupler box (I glue the pad to the floor then drill a hole through the floor. The pad has a hole in it that is in the correct spot for this).
Since you mentioned 18" radii, I would advise against using body mount couplers anyhow. If you go with the Train Station Products trucks, the bolsters come with a "talgo" type extension for couplers, which can be removed if you are using body mounts. TSP does produce Budd style rigid diaphragms that look nice, and should not interfere with operation on tight radii.
I want that book REALLY bad. I just haven't gotten around to actually buying one. With that book, you should be all set for interiors, painting, and detailing. I may take you up on your offer.
Hey Smitty, Charlie here. I recommend getting Southern Pacific Passenger Train Consists and Cars 1955 - 1958. Much cheaper than the "Bible" on SP Passenger trains.
This consist shows the train as it ran on 30 Jan 1958
30' Mail Apartment
Baggage Dormitory
Part Chair (news agent) 48 seat
Chair Car 44 seats
Hamburger Grill Car
Standard Sleeper 10-6
Standard Sleeper 4-4-2
Diner
Lounge
Standard Sleeper 10-6 (Blunt End)
MP 53 on the BNSF Topeka Sub
Hey Charlie, thanks for that. That is the exact consist I am using since I saw that on the Espee Modeler's website. This gives me some confirmation that consist is accurate. I am just going to go with the smooth side 4-4-2 sleeper.
Just as an FYI if anyone is interested, but it looks like Key is importing models of the Budd Sunset cars. They are supposed to be uber detailed from top to bottom with full interiors. I can't/won't afford those cars, but maybe somebody wants 'em.
I also want to add that I have been considering trying to track down one of the Soho models of the blunt end 10-6 sleeper. I don't know how good that would look with the USP cars, but at least the Soho cars weren't detailed that well, so the contrast wouldn't be too bad. That blunt end is going to be a bear to model (especially with the lights), but I am always up for a good challenge!!
Smitty, I just checked Caboose Hobbies website. They don't have any of the old Soho SP Budd sleepers but, I did find two 4-4-2 sleepers by The Coach Yard fairly inexpensive.
These are the two that I found
BC79086 for 145.00
BC83550 for 150.00
You may want to head over to Caboose Hobbies to take a look.
Charlie
Ok Smitty,
when you want something from the book, just write me a pm with your email adress, I will then try to send you the pictures...
Yes, Key is going to produce the complete train ready to run, and I know that it will look great. I also have the money to buy it, BUT:
1. I would never spend so much money on HO passenger cars, even if it´s brass it´s not worth THAT price in my eyes.
2. As far as I know those brass passenger cars need a minimum of 22" curves or even larger, which makes their operation impossible on my layout.
3. I´d rather spend 2000 $ on my 2-month vacation in New Zealand next year than on the brass Sunset.
just in case you might be interested: there is a complete 15 car Sunset Limited by Soho on sale at ebay (just type Sunset Limited into the search bar for toys and hobbies). All cars are sold separately. Some of them are without lettering along one side, or missing a wheel. But must cars are in good condition. But they all don´t have any interiors.
Here´s a picture of the blunt end sleeper, could be really a challenge to model!
Trust me, I already am eyeballing that one. It looks a little rough, though. Thanks for the heads up!!
As rough as it looks, I bet it still brings in upwards of $300.
Yes, I bet that too. Especially in the last minutes it could get exiting...
By the way: Walthers will do a rerun of the Southern Pacific Budd streamliner cars in late summer/fall this year. The only car of those which is prototypical with the Sunset cars is the 10-6 sleeper. So this also might be a nice option, since the only thing which doesn´t make them prototypical is the shape of the numberboard/train name shield in the middle of the car, which should be a bigger rectangle to have more place for the Sunset Limited sign. Plus in your case, you would have to paint the trucks and underbody details into dark grey and also widen the red letterboards or at least eliminate the black stripes at the limits of it.
csmith9474 -----------------------------Gluing the clear acrylic sides to the wihite styrene side can be tricky. I have developed my wn method that works very well, but must be performed carefully. I use a small clamp on one end to clamp the two sides together, making sure everything is lined up and even. I then work my way away from the clamped end, allowing capillary action from a thin ACC to glue the sides together. It may take a couple of practice rounds, but you will find that the capillary action will completely fill in everything.----------------------------- I am going to be using Train Station Products #478 for the belt driven compressors for the ACs. They come with an etched metal, see-through belt guard that looks really niceThat is about all I have been working on up to this point. Below are some pics of this mess:
-----------------------------Gluing the clear acrylic sides to the wihite styrene side can be tricky. I have developed my wn method that works very well, but must be performed carefully. I use a small clamp on one end to clamp the two sides together, making sure everything is lined up and even. I then work my way away from the clamped end, allowing capillary action from a thin ACC to glue the sides together. It may take a couple of practice rounds, but you will find that the capillary action will completely fill in everything.-----------------------------
I am going to be using Train Station Products #478 for the belt driven compressors for the ACs. They come with an etched metal, see-through belt guard that looks really nice
Smitty,
They're looking good! Thank you for your input on my USP related thread. I am curious regarding your comment above regarding the clear acrylic being tricky to glue on. Are they easily damaged? Is the fit tight? I've never purchased USP or TSP items before, but in addition to fluting material, I'll probably try some more of their products as I'm enjoying modeling passenger trains mroe and more.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"