Hi!
I've been an HO model railroader since 1959, and currently have a "well run", 11x15, double layer, DC powered layout. The layout runs off of two MRC Controlmaster 20 units, and with the handheld controllers they have all the power and control to make me happy. As we both are getting older (the layout is 14 and I'm 64), I am looking to do a complete rebuild sometime after the Holidays. While my layout building skills are pretty good, my electronics expertise is not. In short (pun intended), I can wire a house, but understanding electronic stuff is often a challenge.
Given the above, I am trying to keep an open mind about converting to DCC when I build the new layout. I have read a few Kalmbach books on the subject, several articles, and posted questions on the DCC Forum. While some of the jargon is still a mystery to me, I think I've got the concept down pretty good.
I can readily understand why those with very large layouts and/or multiple operators would "need" DCC. I also understand why folks with smaller layouts and/or a couple of locos would gravitate towards DCC. But, I have a hard time justifying my conversion to DCC, given that I have a medium sized layout, and a whole lot of locos (6- all powered F unit ABBA Stewart consists, 8 steam locos, 12 P2k diesel locos, and 9 Kato/Atlas/Spectrum diesel locos), and, I am your typical "lone wolf" model railroader.
Using ballpark figures, I would expect a decent conversion would cost about $1500 plus (includes 53 decoders). While the cost is not a show stopper, it is significant. And then of course there is the significant learning curve for me to get everything installed and working properly.
So, what will DCC do for me, that makes it worth the cost, time and probably "headaches" - which I've read about on this Forum's DCC postings - as well as those on the Broadway-Limited and other sites?
Believe me, I am not against "progress", but I am not sure that DCC makes sense for me.
Your comments/experiences are appreciated!!!!!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Mobilman: I sat on the fence and railed against DCC for a couple of years and now, after having used DCC for two years now, I can't figure out why I was against it in the first place. I guess the main part of it was that I was afraid of change. Like you, I figured the entire cost up front and how many hours ut would take to convert 40+ locos to DCC. Then I sat back and figured that if I went into it slowly, converted a few now then do a few more next month and just buy what I needed for the moment I would pull it off in time. So I started off in DCC with a Bachmann EZ-Command system because I was just going to be running a few locos at a time. While I was doing that I was buying more decoders and gladly accepting those that were given to me by other modelers and trading for some here and there. I now have half my fleet converted to DCC and I just recently upgraded to a Digitrax DCC system with some monetary help from some friends out there on the forum (you know who you are) and there are more decoders on the way. Before long I'll have all my locos (most are good runners) converted and I'll be able to direct all my energy to scenery once again. I am by no means a wealthy man, my entire monthly income is just over $600, so I make use of whatever I can. Getting DCC cost a bit more at the beginning but it saves more in the long run in time, wiring, toggle switches, etc. This hobby is what you make of it and I'm making what I can of it with what little I've got and am enjoying it to the full. I wouldn't have it any other way.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Mobilman,
I really think it comes down to how you operate (or want to operate) your layout and expenses.
If you are a lone wolf and only plan to operate two locomotives at a time, your current set will work just fine for you. It's reliable, your familiar with it, it works - these are all pluses to sticking with what you already have. However, if you are thinking about getting into MUing locomotives, switching, utilizing all the sound options and lighting effects (i.e. mars and ditch lights), and simplifying your wiring, DCC has the advantage.
What makes DCC worth the cost for me? I really like the fact that, with DCC, I'm operating my locomotives rather than my layout. I also enjoy being able to independently operate two or more locomotives at any given time on the same track. Everything but my turnouts is controlled via the throttle. I don't have to throw switches or controllers just to move a train around my layout.
Course, I came on board with DCC early on. So the expensive to convert a multitude of locomotives was not an issue for me. However, I can understand how those who do have quite a DC fleet might feel reluctant to convert.
Mobilman, probably the best thing for you to do would be to go to a MRR club open house or LHS where they have DCC. This way you could see it first hand and perhaps get some hands-on experience; at the same time asking questions so that you can make an informed choice as to whether DCC would be right for you.
You can do all the reading you want. However, make sure you try DCC out before making any kind of decision yea or nay.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Count me in the camp of those who, having looked at MY givens and druthers, MY skills and abilities and the way I operate MY railroad empire, have decided that the disadvantages of going to an unfamiliar and expensive system outweigh any discernable advantages.
People will tell you about sound with DCC. No one will ask if you want or need sound. IMHO, until an on-board speaker can reproduce the full-throated roar of a steam locomotive battling a grade, fuhgeddaboudit.
People will talk about, "Running a train, not a railroad." What if you want to run the railroad and are content to let the trains run themselves, 'Fire and forget,' fashion? With analog DC, all I need is a few cheap resistors and diodes. With DCC - ??? (computer interface? automated electronic throttle?)
So maybe I'm an old stick-in-the-mud, too lazy to stretch my feeble brain around new concepts because the old stone axe still cuts trees. Or, maybe, I believe in the old mechanic's adage:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with 1964 control technology)
In addition to converting to DCC you could also:
1: Bungee jump off the New River Gorge bridge
2: attempt to break the land speed record in a rocket car at Bonneville
3: Get an I Love Lucy face tattoo
4: Buy a sub-prime mortgage home
5: Steal a steak from a former Michael Vick pit bull
Just because it CAN be done, in no way means that you SHOULD do it. DCC has great advantages in many ways over conventional block wiring, but I don't use DCC because those advantages mean exactly nothing to me in the way I operate my railroad. I would simply be buying a system that I will not be using as designed, so why spend the money? Block wiring has worked well for me for many years and I don't see that changing any time soon. So be old fashioned, what of it, who are you trying to impress?
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
I think your $1500 estimate is a bit low. Your looking at around $1100-$1200 just for your decoders before you even open up a loco and try to install one. You always run into more expenses one you start wiring them in. (especially with older locos)I think DCC is a heck of a lot more fun even if your running by yourself.
I am in a similar situation. I started out with DCC, because the wiring is simpler and I liked the idea of running trains without throwing toggle swithes and all that goes with a DC layout. I to still do not have decoders in all my locos. Now, the situation. I have always wanted sound for my trains. Now that it is available, I am faced with a huge expence to upgrade everything to sound decoders. After installing one, the quality of sound is at best, bad. Also, I like to run deisels mostly, and you will never get that deep rumble from a speaker that will fit inside a locomotive. There has recently been a product released that uses speakers placed around the layout and utilizes a sub woofer. So, I am thinking that this is the way to go. This set up turns out to be even more expensive and you also have to have encoding decoders installed in the locos, hence more expensive upgrades. So, I also say FUHGEDDABOUDIT. If your DC setup works well and you are happy with it, I would just stick with it. Also, some older locos are a real pain to install decoders in.
I would suggest you buy a "starter" DCC system like the NCE powercab or Digitrax Zephyr along with a DCC sound engine already to go like an Atlas Gold unit. Other than the engine, you'll only have to layout a measly 200 bucks or so. That's nothing. If you don't like it, sell it on Ebay, or better yet, use if for the train layout around the Christmas tree. My monthly income is less than 9,000 a month, so I'm not rich either like another poster stated, but hey, sometimes you just gotta go for it
And, if you decide to stay with DCC you can always upgrade either DCC system mentioned above.
Mobilman44,
I have one thing to add about DCC that has not been written yet that I can find. With DCC you can have a cornfield meet that is impossible with DC I think. I believe that would be missing. LOL.
Seriously, DCC is great but only you would need to decide if the cost and work would be worth it. I have been in DCC 5 years but I didn't have all the locos to convert like you. I believe about 6-8.
Best thing would be to operate a DCC system on a layout to decide if you want to take the plunge.
Barry
The benefit of DCC is the ability to run multiple locomotives/trains on the same track at the same time under independent control. Especially useful with multiple engineers operating. On a big layout with lots of blocks and block toggles, where remembering where the toggle switch is that you need to keep the locomotive running becomes a problem, the DCC is nice.
If it's your layout and you are the sole operator and you remember the location of every toggle switch 'cause you wired each one, then DCC is less compelling.
My new layout is straight DC for the time being. I too have a fair collection of locomotives and the thought of taking each one apart and installing a $30 decoder is a deterrent. I am wiring a two cab block system with the thought that the "other" cab might in the future become a DCC cab.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Well, I'm jumping in again, here. I've got very close to 50 brass steamers that I've fiddled and tinkered to run very well, and I run them all. But not at ONCE. I have a fairly large (24x24') one-man layout and being a Lone Wolf, I run it myself. I seldom run two trains at once, because I run my layout in Real Time, and my setting (Sierra Nevada during WWII) seldom would see a train every ten minutes. More like one an hour. I've got a loco servicing facilty where I can switch from 'valley' to 'mountain' power, or just add a helper (and most of my brass locos have been painstakingly geared to run comfortably in tandem). I have a very reilable ControlMaster 20 with the tethered control which allows me to follow my train around the layout, and being an inveterate train-watcher, I'm really pretty happy with the results.
Yup, I'm DC and a Happy Camper. I have nothing against DCC, but for me, DC works! I don't need to do switching when I'm running a train, and I don't need to necessarily follow a train around the layout if I do decide to do switching (block control takes care of that pretty well). And if I want to run TWO trains, I've reached my limit. I can do so with Block Control, but then there's only me and this big railroad. I can't Clone myself, nor do I want to. I pretty much like to concentrate on one thing at a time. But for those for whom DCC works and works well, I say HOORAY! I'm just not one of those guys.
Besides, fitting all of my brass locos with decoders? WHEW! Hey, I'm retired, and on a fairly fixed income, and I'd have to fit all those locos at once, because I NEVER know which lokie I want to drag out of the case and let roll. Again, I'm not anti-DCC, don't even think it. It's probably the definite Coming Thing, and after I'm gone, I have a feeling it will take over the MR hobby. I'd just rather use a hand-held throttle to control my train, then punching in a bunch of numbers. And since I very seldom run two trains at a time, why bother?
Sound? Hey, I've got a Soundtraxx "Heritage Steam" system with well-spaced speakers under my layout, so if I want sound, I can flip it on or off. And that neat little controller lets me bring up just about any steam effect I want, just by pressing a couple of buttons.
For you DCC'ers: Have at it. And have a ball. And I know that there are things that you can do that I can't even dream about. But what I'm doing is good enough for me. Besides, I can crack my steamers to crawl by only taking up 2 volts of power, not 14.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
It really comes down to just exactly how you envision running the railroad. If you always oeprate alone, and just run one train - then it may indeed not make sense to go to DCC. You can run one train unencumbered all over the layotu simply my setting all your block toggels to Cab A and using the Cab A throttle - I presume you've installed multiple throttle locations with the Controlmaster 20 so you can walk around and follow the train.
Now if you intend at some point to have people over to operate with, once you have 3-5 people running trains around it's WAY WAY more fun and easy with DCC. Of course, that brings responsibility - with DCC any train can run anywhere - including head on into one coming the other way, or into the back of one stopped to switch an industry. It's hard to quantify in words, really. You sort of have to experience it. Imagine two locos having a meet at a siding - throw the turnout, one train pulls into the siding, throw the turnout back, and the other train goes on past on the main. No flipping block toggles to assign which cab controls which loco. No sudden train stoppage as you cross a block boundary and forget to swet the block toggle to assign power to your cab. Just follow the train around controlling speed and sirection and paying attention to signals, or the timetable and your train orders.
My first hands on with DCC was at a train show, one of the venders had a simple 22" radius HO loop of track with two locos running on it. I was sold verbally on the concepts way back when I borrowed "THe Complete Book of Model Railroading" from the library as a kid and read the chapters on the GE ASTRAC system. I was like..wow. But that little loop was the first time I actually had a throttle in my hand and could control both locos at the same time - and yes I did manage to run one into the other.
As for a cost estimate, it's probably not far off.A god portion of the locos brands you mentioned are truly or nearly plug and play - installing a decoder in some of those is little more than taking off the shell, disconnectign the wires connected to the existing circuit board (not even soldered on) and reconnectign them to a decoder that has connections in the exact same physical location as the original circuit board. The Atlas and Kato ones will be like that, Possibly the Stewarts depending on the age. P2K locos are in anything even simpler, depending on which decoder you use. Digitrax has one that literally just plugs in and you don;t have to worry about the low voltage light bulbs or anything like that. Opening the loco is more difficult then the 'electronic' work involved - you unplug the factory board and plug in the decoder, done. The most difficult locos to convert will probably be the steamers, depending on who made them and how old they are. That's why you tart with the really easy one and as you gain skill in seeign what goes where you work up to the more complex ones. Plus there are numerous services that will do decoder installs for you if you find one or two just plain beyond your ability.
If your wiring is solid, you can switch gradually - most modern decoders will run fine on DC power, so you can replace one of your CM20's with the DCC booster. Cab A will be DC and Cab B DCC. One thing I would say never to do is run both at the same time - crossing the gap between a block set to DCC and one set to DC can make a mess of several things. However, when you want to run the locos you haven't converted yet, you can switch everything to DC and run them - and the oens with decoders will ALSO run. Switched to DCC< only the decodered locos will run - some brands of DCC systems allow running a DC loco, but the results are less than satisfactory and there is a risk of damaging the loco if you let it sit unmoving on the DCC track, or run at low speeds constantly.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I too had a complete 20' by 25' layout with dual cab control and CM20 throttles. I started building it in 1987 and it ran very well. In the mid 90's I started 'playing' with DCC. By 1997 I was hooked and had a Digitrax Chief command station. The big issue was converting all of those Athearn/Atlas custom painted diesels. I had about 100+ engines from as far back as 1964. After really considering the entire roster, I realized that my railroad only operated with about 18 'good' engines. The rest were in boxes or in display shelves, and run 'once in a while'. Now, this was back in the day of $40 decoders as well! Once I started the convesions, Digitrax came out with low cost 'fleet' decoders and that became the standard. I have since sold off most of the 'show' fleet and all of the 'operating' roster of engines. New P2K GP9's and SD7's, as well as Atlas/Kato/BLI engines replacedthem(as did better freight cars) over the years.
Once the engine situation settled down, I spent a week of vacation pulling over 2200' of #18 wiring & panels from the layout. I then 'wired' the railroad all over again. The big cost here was wire and 3M IDC's. About $200 was spent that week. Here is the break down over about 10 years of DCC.
$500 for decoders for the inital running fleet(about 1-2 hours per Athearn engine)
$600 for DCC Command Station/2 DT100 throttles/UP5 panels and Loconet wiring
$200 for the 're-wire' of the layout(not really needed)
$1300 - Total Cost
Since then, I have added wireless(UR91, converted DT100's to DT100R and buy 2 DT400R throttles), and added 'sound' engines(7). I have also converted about 25 more engines.
If I was going to convert to DCC 'today', it would be a lot more inexpensive. I would buy a 'Zephyr' command station, and a pair of DT400R throttles(plus the UR91). The 'fleet' decoders can be had for $12-20 - depending on features. I also would make sure I hooked up a computer to the system right away - Much easier to program engines!
Could I have just kept running DC? Sure I could, but after converting the layout to DCC - I can see how much better the layout operates. I have also spent the past 3 years helping build a 25' by 25' double deck club layout - DCC only. With large 8 amp boosters, and wireless, it is very easy to run. We have had over 15 trains operating at a time on the layout!
Jim Bernier
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I too am 60+ retired on pension, been modeling for 35 years or so, I was always DC. When I retired I wanted to change the way I operated. I dove into DCC full hog , I don't do sound because my hearing is so bad sound is a lost cause. But what is nice is running an SP freight on my outer line , a local on my inner loop and working the yards at the same time, (some times actually running two switchers in the yards at the same time ! ). No I haven't converted all my units and probably never will, so I'm converting my favorites and the rest are display shelf queens. DCC wasn't that hard to get used to. I will admit , using decoder pro hooked to my NCE power pro makes it easy, I don't have to learn all the CV stuff you hear about , power pro does all the thinking for you. Nuff outta me
Jerry SP FOREVER http://photobucket.com/albums/f317/GAPPLEG/
Mobilman44,DC analog can cause just as many headaches as any DCC system, it's all in what you know. I operated for 8 years on a 1953-era club layout (with a 1978 extension) that used cab block control. There were 8 mainline cabs, 12 yard cabs, 2 local freight cabs, 2 trolley cabs, and 1 narrow gauge cab for a 2500 sq. ft. layout. Each mainline cab had some 50+ block toggles. In fact, here's a pic of our old Cab #7 (blt. 1978):
Each toggle had a light above it that indicated when it was in use. Due to that and the rest, here's a pic of the back of the same cab:
The wires are all cut because this cab was removed in 1998 and is in storage at our new club where this pic was taken.
The above two pics are the primary reason why we went with DCC on our new layout 6300 sq. ft. layout, that and our decades of experience running our DC analog layout. We had to worry about mystery floating blocks, shot relays, dirty toggles, blown lightbulbs, bad pots (throttles), and troublesome reversing blocks. And that's not even counting the number of times we heard "Who's got my train?" during every operation.
While DCC eliminated all of that, it of course has it's own "issues". While annoying, these aren't generally as crippling as a DC "issue". The most common problem with DCC is with the decoders and getting them programmed. At worst, this effects one loco at a time. With DC analog, one bad relay or toggle can kill an entire yard or mainline.
As for your specific situation, if you run one train at a time then I recommend that you don't use DCC. I would also recommend that you wire your layout as one block. But once you even start thinking of running 2 trains or getting a friend to run trains with, then you ought to seriously consider DCC. Also, if you want to conduct yard operations, then I would seriously consider DCC for that, too (even if you operate all alone). Yards don't like blocks, and engine terminals really don't go with them, either. In a yard or engine terminal, you park the loco where it fits, not where the block cuts are. Likewise, when making or breaking a train, you can move the road power without worrying where the yard goat has to be electrically.
DCC is, generally, more expensive than a simple DC analog layout. But to get even close to what DCC can do with DC analog equipment, it can be just the opposite. It depends on what's more important to you, and where your interests are.
tomikawaTT,Layout animation is far easier with DCC and a computer, and you need far more than just "...a few cheap resistors and diodes" to animate a DC analog layout.
tangerine-jack,In addition to staying with DC analog you could also:1: Grow all your own food.
2: Communicate via the US Mail vs. this web forum.
3: Use Mantua couplers.
4: Still use eight-track cassettes.
5: Never ride in any vehicle that goes faster than a running horse.
Just because something has been done a certain way in the past, doesn't mean that's the only way it should be done.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
While DCC is nice the start up cost is the real eye opener.IF I was to convert ALL of my HO locomotive fleet to DCC it will be close to $1200.00 for decoders plus $79.95 for the UT4 Throttle-IF I wanted to replace my trusty UT2 throttle..I am lucky..I don't have a home layout but,one of the clubs I am a member of is DCC and only a select few locomotives been converted to DCC.Total cost around $450.00 for decoders.
Now then..My N Scale home layout will be DCC but,only 4 locomotives will be equipped.Why 4? That's all my short line uses and to since this will be very basic DCC operation I will use Bachmann's E-Z DCC system.Total cost around $200.00.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Are you missing something?
Probably very little. You have been steadfast in the hobby for many years and still enjoy it within your parameters.
My experience began with DC lasting about two years, and then I returned to the hobby after about 45 years. I essentially began again, after a short bit in DC, with a BLI engine that had a QSI decoder. I was hooked. Later, with a Super Empire Builder, I found that I needed no blocks, relays, no toggles. I could make two engines couple at their pilots on the same contiguous section of track.
As others have described it, I can play trains, and not have to play "work the electricals".
I'm a recent convert to DCC. I was a DC hold out of a long time. It wasn't just the expense. I took pride in my ability to design and build, not just the layout, but the two cab electrical system that ran it. Designing and installing my control panels was as much fun and as important to me as designing my yard or engine terminal.
In the early stages of building my current layout, I decided to give DCC a try.
I have 45 feet (approx) of mainline track installed and I am, quite literally, running it all with just 2 wires from my power pack to the rails. I am currently using two Athearn MP15ACs for motive power. I bought the DC models and added the decoders myself - a 5 to 10 minute operation as the MPs already had a circuit board that would accept the decoder.
I also hardwired a old Blue Box SW-1500 - it took me about an hour to make all the connections, but I recently discovered that digitrax makes an adapter kit for the old Ahtearns. That would save some time.
I would say "go for it"! You'll never be sorry you did (IMHO).
-George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
mobilman44While my layout building skills are pretty good, my electronics expertise is not. In short (pun intended), I can wire a house, but understanding electronic stuff is often a challenge.
But, I have a hard time justifying my conversion to DCC, given that I have a medium sized layout, and a whole lot of locos (6- all powered F unit ABBA Stewart consists, 8 steam locos, 12 P2k diesel locos, and 9 Kato/Atlas/Spectrum diesel locos)
And then of course there is the significant learning curve for me to get everything installed and working properly.
I still think I am missing something here. If you don't want to go to DCC why are you even asking the question? Are you missing something.... No. Not that I can think of.
Personally I like having the power in the track all the time. This lets me have constant burning headlamps, lighted passenger cars, caboose marker lamps, and drumheads. It makes signalling a bit easier.
Howdy, Paul.
Paul3 Snip --- here's a pic of our old Cab #7 (blt. 1978): Each toggle had a light above it that indicated when it was in use. Due to that and the rest, here's a pic of the back of the same cab: The wires are all cut because this cab was removed in 1998 and is in storage at our new club where this pic was taken.
Snip --- here's a pic of our old Cab #7 (blt. 1978):
Why is it in storage? Somebody planning to recycle the toggle switches? If I had to contend with something like that I'd go to DCC in a heartbeat!
several paragraphs deleted tomikawaTT,Layout animation is far easier with DCC and a computer, and you need far more than just "...a few cheap resistors and diodes" to animate a DC analog layout.
Since I am operating my layout and you aren't, I find your statement more than a bit presumptuous. Note that I did not say, "Animate my layout." I have a, 'Fire and forget,' capability - start a train, get it up to speed, then turn it loose. When it reaches the point where it's supposed to stop, it encounters a series of speed reducing sub-blocks before running onto dead rail. That's where the cheap resistors and diodes come in.
Sarcastic list deleted. Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Sarcastic list deleted.
I use a modified form of (the late) Ed Ravenscroft's MZL system - which is very user friendly in operation. As a result, I can single-handedly - well, two-handedly, both hands being mine - operate a very dense schedule while handling engine changes, car swaps and other fun things.
If I ever have visiting operators I can simply take over the Main panel, which allows me to power-route and throw switches for the entire empire. The train crews can run their locomotives without concerning themselves with who has which block. In fact, from their point of view, the whole thing is very much like DCC. From my point of view, it's more like CTC.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I am also a more recent convert (2 yrs), mostly single oprtator of a12x23 layout (2nd level still under construction). I havn't had to flip a toggle or throw a cab switch for two years! My engines were all remotored and fine tuned before and ran well on DC, but they run even better on DCC and boy, can they crawl now. As all my locos were pretty well matched before I have yet to have to fool around with CVs. Being able to creep up on another engine and couple up without using the ol' 0-5-0 to create MU lashups is pretty neat too. I know it's been said before, but it really can't be over stated, It is really a different experience controlling individual trains/locos versus controlling a layout/track.
I spent about $600 on the NCE ProCab and 2 extra throttles and another $350 for decoders (4- function fleet decoders @ $11.50 each) for about 30 locos, I installed the first 20 in about 3 months (all hard wired Athearns, Atlas, Katos and a few others).
Another feature of DCC that intrigued me, is the ability to control turnouts from the throttle and this will be Phase 2 of my DCC venture.
The learning curve really isn't that steep once you dig in and get your hands dirty. With all the reading and information overload, it turned out to be pretty simple to get things running. After 30+ years in DC, I am really happy I made the switch.
Edit: On sound: I've bought one sound engine (Atlas ALCo C-420) and I'm not impressed, I won't be buying another one. The sound is small and tinny, (to be expected from the tiny little speakers), I'm better off just throwing on a tape or DVD, The effects are all neat and cute, but not worth the expense to me. Steam is a bit better, it's all chuff chuff and hissing, better suited to the tiny speakers.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
Mobilman, I went DCC for one reason, I love sound engines! I all so got into DCC cheap thanks to T-Stage. I run his old Bachmann E-Z Command that he pretty much gave me. I then added a MRC power station 8 amp booster. If you bought the E-Z at full prices around $100.00 and the Power Station 8 booster $140.00 you will have all the power and control of sound that most people need. I Will not go into what you cannot do with the E-Z at this point.
Now here is what I HATE about DCC!
DC is like a old car, if it does not run you check for fuel, fire and ignition. See if the carb is getting gas, pull a plug wire and see if there is spark and if not check the coil and points.
DCC is like a new car, you open the hood and hope you see a wire hanging off something, if not call a tow truck.
I am not talking about the bench but the DCC engines them self.
More a engine or a car can do, there more things that can go wrong! I have 6 times more problems with DCC engines than DC engines. I am not taking about the cheap stuff either. Nothing like sending back $2500.00 worth of BLI and PCM engines in for repairs and waiting for them to come back. (BLI has done a great job on taken care of there problems)
Case in point, last Wednesday my BLI Hudson was pulling a drag on the C-line. I was watching the A and B line at that point. I then saw the C-line drag has stopped, heard hissing sound from it's speakers so it was getting power but just sat there. Is it the decoder or wiring? Will mess with it in a day or so. I all so have a $600.00 engine going in for repairs again for the second time!
I pretty much stopped running 2 trains on the same main. It is fun for a while, but then you have to start to run the trains and stop watching them.
On the sound, I still love sound engines, but sometimes it gets on my nerve's and half the time turn the sound off.
If I had it to do over, 85% sure I would have stuck with DC.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
I came back to the hobby about 4 years ago, with a bunch of 40-year-old trains in boxes. My first thought was to build a DC layout and slowly convert to DCC, or maybe to run part of the layout on each control system. (I've since learned this is a bad idea.)
Then, I installed my first decoder and ran my first DCC train. Suddenly, the 8-year-old boy inside of my then-50-something body woke up again. Within hours, I'd disconnected the DC system forever. To me, it was just a lot more fun to "run the trains, not the track."
I love sound engines, too. I'm not an audiophile. I know that things on my model railroad are representative, not true-to-life, and sound is one of them. So, if my Hudson won't wake the dead or even the neighbors 2 houses away, well, that's OK with me. I still like hearing the bell and the brake squeals as I bring it slowly to a halt. By the way, I'm one of those who likes sound so much that I hardly ever run my non-sound engines anymore.
I did not have a fleet of engines to convert. Actually, I gave it the old college try. I even put a decoder into a couple of old Athearn rubber-band-drive engines. And I learned first-hand some of the campfire wisdom that we pass around here all the time: If an engine doesn't run well on DC, it's going to run even worse on DCC. I thought about replacing the motor, gears, wheels, lights and couplers on my old GP-9's, but then I found brand new GP-9's for less than it would have cost me for parts to do the upgrades.
I run my layout by myself. I generally have a train running on each of the two closed loops, and then I either actively run switching operations, or I scoot trolleys in and out of the subways, interleaving them with both the subway trains and the surface traffic. I'd have a hard time doing that sort of thing with DC control, but I can deal with it (most of the time, anyway) on DCC.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Good Morning!
Thank you all for your input - it is appreciated! You have given me a lot to think about.
I tallied all the posts and found a fairly equal division between "yes" (to use DCC), "no", and "it depends". It still looks like a "toss up" for me, and thankfully I won't have to make a decision until I begin wiring the new layout - as design, benchwork, and tracklaying will come first.
One thing I worried over is probably not really an issue. I was concerned that if I converted to DCC and had problems, I would be stuck with it. But having "you guys" out there as experienced advisers minimizes that situation immensely.
I will certainly let you all know what I decide, and how it works out. And by the way, if you have any more advice/comments, please add them to this forum posting.
Thanks, and ENJOY !!!!
cudaken I have 6 times more problems with DCC engines than DC engines. I am not taking about the cheap stuff either. Nothing like sending back $2500.00 worth of BLI and PCM engines in for repairs and waiting for them to come back. (BLI has done a great job on taken care of there problems) Case in point, last Wednesday my BLI Hudson was pulling a drag on the C-line. I was watching the A and B line at that point. I then saw the C-line drag has stopped, heard hissing sound from it's speakers so it was getting power but just sat there. Is it the decoder or wiring? Will mess with it in a day or so. I all so have a $600.00 engine going in for repairs again for the second time! I pretty much stopped running 2 trains on the same main. It is fun for a while, but then you have to start to run the trains and stop watching them. On the sound, I still love sound engines, but sometimes it gets on my nerve's and half the time turn the sound off. If I had it to do over, 85% sure I would have stuck with DC. Cuda Ken
I have 6 times more problems with DCC engines than DC engines. I am not taking about the cheap stuff either. Nothing like sending back $2500.00 worth of BLI and PCM engines in for repairs and waiting for them to come back. (BLI has done a great job on taken care of there problems)
It seems to me that the BLI engines are your problems. You bought a "Dodge" instead of a Toyota .
I do have a BLI SD40-2 and have had no problems at all with it, although I will say my Atlas,Proto 2000 & Kato engines are definiately a step above the BLI as far as build quality goes. I bought my BLI because of the paint scheme. Would I buy another one? Probably not.
You have to admit too that looking back at all your posts, it seems to me that you run your layout differently than most people I know. You are concerened with how many cars this or that engine can pull, and how steep a climb you can go without your wheels spinning while dragging 50 or 100 cars behind you.Its Kind of like comparing "Drag Racing" to "Rally Racing". I see you as a "Drag Racer" in the train arena. Nothing wrong with that, but those are just my observations.
Nevin,One of the joys of a point to point layout with CTC controlled single track with passing sidings operation is taking a siding in order to meet a on coming train..It doesn't get any more realistic then that in DC or DCC.
As I mention one club I am a member of converted to DCC mostly for sound since we kept the layout intact and installed a DC/DCC toggle switch..We started DCC operation last April..Six months later we seem to operate more in the DC mode since we maintain normal operation procedures of 6-7 main line trains since that's what the DS can handle for smooth operation and that also avoids any potential for operation melt down due to walbashing the freight yard followed by the backup of inbound trains being held in passing sidings...
Driline cudaken I have 6 times more problems with DCC engines than DC engines. I am not taking about the cheap stuff either. Nothing like sending back $2500.00 worth of BLI and PCM engines in for repairs and waiting for them to come back. (BLI has done a great job on taken care of there problems) Case in point, last Wednesday my BLI Hudson was pulling a drag on the C-line. I was watching the A and B line at that point. I then saw the C-line drag has stopped, heard hissing sound from it's speakers so it was getting power but just sat there. Is it the decoder or wiring? Will mess with it in a day or so. I all so have a $600.00 engine going in for repairs again for the second time! I pretty much stopped running 2 trains on the same main. It is fun for a while, but then you have to start to run the trains and stop watching them. On the sound, I still love sound engines, but sometimes it gets on my nerve's and half the time turn the sound off. If I had it to do over, 85% sure I would have stuck with DC. Cuda Ken It seems to me that the BLI engines are your problems. You bought a "Dodge" instead of a Toyota . I do have a BLI SD40-2 and have had no problems at all with it, although I will say my Atlas,Proto 2000 & Kato engines are definiately a step above the BLI as far as build quality goes. I bought my BLI because of the paint scheme. Would I buy another one? Probably not. You have to admit too that looking back at all your posts, it seems to me that you run your layout differently than most people I know. You are concerened with how many cars this or that engine can pull, and how steep a climb you can go without your wheels spinning while dragging 50 or 100 cars behind you.Its Kind of like comparing "Drag Racing" to "Rally Racing". I see you as a "Drag Racer" in the train arena. Nothing wrong with that, but those are just my observations.
This is one of the problems we ran into at the club..Many of the sound equipped locos operated smoothly in DC but,was killed by DCC.Of course there was a learning curve involved but,still there shouldn't have been any problems beyond the learning stage.Oddly some had no problems even with MRC decoders while others had problems.
If DC works for you STICK TO IT. I can more than understand you wanting to stick to DC if you are a little electronics challenged. (I stick to K.I.S.S. principle. )
But... (Don't you hate it when someone starts a sentence with that?)
If you have a friend/club member who understands DCC, this can go a long way to simplifiing your operations. You could go over to his place and try his system. As far as simplicity goes, nothing is simpler than Bachmann EZ-Command (but it only controls a maximum of 10 locos.). After that Digitrax is really simple to use, but a lil more complicated to hook up wiring to.
Since you are starting a new layout, DCC would be a good way to go for several reasons:
1. No more wiring by blocks to control individual locos for smaller layouts! This means no more block wiring to a control panel, no more "feeding power by the points", no worrying about points feeding power to the correct rail, and no isolation gaps after turnouts. The only time you need blocks are 1) Reverse loops and 2) block detection for signal heads.
Case in point: You might want to bring a loco in a yard. You might have some ins and outs, so the engine needs to sit in the yard while the switcher does it's job. That means on a DC layout you would need to create a special "pocket" for the lead switcher and engine and flip the appropriate switches for each. With DCC this isn't necessary.
Another case in point: I know someone who "feeds power by the points" on the switches. The problem with this approach is that if your points become dirty or loose pressure contact, everything after the points looses power. Since points become unreliable at conducting power after time, we have to wire up a switch machine that routes power. This complicates wiring.
On my DCC layout I'm setting up, I have TWO main bus wire pair. (I have 17 sound engines which require > 5 amps. So I have to wire two buses, one for each level, to distribute power more evenly ) If you run < 5 amps total, then you can use ONE main bus wire pair.
2. With BEMF decoders your engine performance will improve! You can adjust the speed of each individual loco indpendently. This means if loco A runs 30smph @ 9Volts and loco B runs 25smph @ 9Volts on a DC layout, you can adjust them both to run 30smph together. This is great for consist!
You also don't have constantly adjust the throttle at slow speeds to compensate for slight voltage variations on the track. BEMF decoders ensure your wheels keep turning, so there is no stalls. This is great for making a loco crawl!
3. You are dealing with one constant voltage and not a variable one. Passenger cars no longer need large capacitors to keep the interior lit. (Trivial benefit but....) Headlights no longer dim on engines.
4. More realistic options: Not only is their sound, but you can control things like working ditch lights for grade crossings.
5. And I hate to say it but: DC is slowly dieing in the hobby. While BLI/PCM/Blueline/Tsunami deocders/Bachmann spectrum all work on DC, they do not do it very well. Even when the decoders are "adjusted" for DC control, they are just slow and hard to control. They require a higher DC voltage to run well.
You can no longer buy DC only decoders for BLI/PCM or Bachmann Spectrum series steam. It just isn't an option. :-( Even the CHEAP ($35 at local hobby shop) Bachmann Deisels come equipped with dual mode (DC and DCC) decoders now.
Hope this helps,
-D
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
tomikawaTT,We did recycle all rest of the old cabs for their toggles, and currently use them for Tortoise machines. The reason for Cab 7 being saved intact is that it shows why we went DCC...and we do have some vague plans to mount this old cab in a display stand near our new layout as a sort of "museum" item describing the club's past. Hey, we're 70 years old this year, we got a lot of past to show off.
Ok, it was presumptuous of me to talk about your layout. But before I apologize, there are two things: I equate "let the trains run themselves" with "layout animation", and I can't see how one can get a train to "fire and foget" (IOW, from full speed to a stop) with just "a few cheap resistors and diodes"...or at least not that smoothly unless you have a lot of blocks (and therefore, more than a few). BTW, with DCC, I don't see why you couldn't do the same thing. I know on our club DCC layout when we have a voltage drop, the train slows down. I'm sure at some point, the decoder would stop working, but I don't know what voltage level that is. Of course, if you use DCC, one could put in ATS and trains would be stopped automatically at a red signal so one wouldn't need resistors, but still... (BTW, what are the diodes for?)
The "sarcastic list" was, of course, merely a response to the equally sarcastic list from tangerine-jack with his "Bonneville flats" and "Lucy tattoo" nonsense.