Coal hauling in 1880s era

[toot toot]

probably the best source for information about 1880s coal cars (or just about any freight cars from the 1830s to the 1990s) is John White Jr.'s monumental "American Railway Freight Car" 

(1993 Johns Hopkins) there is a historic overview, photos, plans and drawings enough to satisfy anyone, including the B&O Iron Pots, wood drop bottom gons and hoppers

[richg1998]

I'm not sure where the name Winans comes from, but as far as I know there is (sadly) no connection with Winant.  Of course, given the changes in spellings over the years, who can tell?

Ross Winans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Winans

Rich

[Winant]

I'm not sure where the name Winans comes from, but as far as I know there is (sadly) no connection with Winant.  Of course, given the changes in spellings over the years, who can tell?

[Winant]

I'll look for the Alexander book, thanks very much.  I hadn't asked about motive power, but you've got some good ideas.  Since I wasn't thinking of matching any particular prototype, I am leaning towards the the 2-8-0s, especially since the Western Maryland used them on the Thomas route (from some pictures that I've seen). 

[dehusman]

An operating detail is that with coal and most non perishable comodities speed was not the important issue. Slow, but steady supply, was the by word. Those 4 wheel "jimmies" probably moved at 20 mph maximum.

My 1876 P&R rule book says that loaded coal trains are limited to 6 mph.

Talk about a drag freight.

Dave H.

[Voyager]

Winant,

Many other forum contributers have provided excellent advice on coal carrying cars. As you may have noticed,  however, the answers to your questions varied according to different geographic areas and railroads. Since you spoke of a model line set in the Alleghenies in the 1880s, I suggest you track down a copy of E.P. Alexander's book "On the Mainline," a photographic survey of the Pennsylvania during the period from the 1870s through the 1890s. It includes some great photos of Pennsy coal (and other) rolling stock. The resin drop bottom gondolas sold by Old and Weary closely match those the Pennsy used back then for Bituminous coal. 

No one seems to have discussed motive power, but that too will be a big consideration. It would be great to model the B&O with those unique pot hoppers, but none have been commercially made--much less those ungainly but charming B&O camel engines that were used to haul them (SMR also seems too have backed off producing these in O scale along with the pot hoppers). Basing a model on the Pennsy would put you in better stead. You can still occasionally find some of the old Empire Midland brass models of the Pennsy H1-3 2-8-0s that were sold back in the 1970s. Failing that, you can use the Roundhouse (now Athearn) 2-8-0 as a basis for kitbashing them (there was an article in RMC back in the '90s on how to do so). Or, if you're willing to be less prototypical, just use the Roundhouse 2-8-0s for a not-quite Pennsy look.

Beauport

 

 

 

[richg1998]

These locos where used to haul a lot of coal. No more than 10 mph. A few lasted until the late 1800s. Use an old time MDC 2-8-0 and do some bashing.

Rich

[richg1998]

Thanks to everyone for the responses.  I am planning not to model specifically any one railroad, but looking at a layout set in the middle Alleghany moutains: western Maryland, central PA and into WV. 

The B&O iron pot cars sound interesting.  Do you know of any models currently made or available? 

 

To my knowledge, no one makes a HO scale iron pot hopper. 

One guy is selling a kit based on the Missouri, Kansas and Texas 28' gondola in HO scale. The cost is $19.00 for two kits. I have a pair of these. Very nice kits. There is no hopper but labor was inexpensive at the time.

http://www.housatonicrr.com/  I gave this link before but forgot to mention the resin kits. The kits where discussed in the Yahoo ER kit group.

The Red Ball 4 wheel jimmies are rather crude compared to the Alkem 4 wheel jimmie I have some Red Ball kits.

 The Alkem would look nice in a string with just chains to connect the cars to each other. That was done prototypically. The buffer blocks absorbed the banging of the cars.

In the late 1800s there were many 4 wheel jimmies still being used. I have the book, Hard Coal & Coal Country, which is mostly about coal hauling on the O&W.

Rich

[RDG1519]

The Phila & Reading used the 4 wheel wooden "jimmies" pre 1900. They brought millions of tons of anthracite to the Philadelphia market for use in homes, industry, and for export.

An operating detail is that with coal and most non perishable comodities speed was not the important issue. Slow, but steady supply, was the by word. Those 4 wheel "jimmies" probably moved at 20 mph maximum. The "camel back" frieght loco's were optimized for low speed drags.

 Hope you have fun with an era not often modeled.

Chris

 

[Autobus Prime]

Depends on what stage of coal hauling your modelling too. Coal coming out of the mines would be in open top cars, but commercial coal being sent across country would often be bagged and carried in boxcars at that time.

w:

Ah. That makes sense, especially for the heating anthracite that would have been carried on the jimmies, and blacksmiths' coal in the days when they were all over the place.

[wjstix]

Depends on what stage of coal hauling your modelling too. Coal coming out of the mines would be in open top cars, but commercial coal being sent across country would often be bagged and carried in boxcars at that time.

Someone had a good article a year or two back in the Northern Pacific Hist. Soc. magazine about how coal used to be a big incoming item in Duluth/Superior. Coal was brought by boat from the east via the Great Lakes, then the bagged coal was transloaded to boxcars and shipped from there to the Twin Cities, Fargo/Moorhead and other areas. Later it was carried in gondola cars - apparently coal dealers preferred to get it in gondolas that had doors in the bottom, it was easier to unload than hoppers.

Oddly enough, the Twin Ports now ships out a huge amount of Powder River Basin coal heading east and overseas.

[Autobus Prime]

Thanks to everyone for the responses.  I am planning not to model specifically any one railroad, but looking at a layout set in the middle Alleghany moutains: western Maryland, central PA and into WV. 

The B&O iron pot cars sound interesting.  Do you know of any models currently made or available? 

 

W:

(Ah, is your username a variant of "Winans" then? :D)

I don't know of any such models, and it's a shame, because they are interesting. There was talk of a 1:48 bra$$ model, to come out with a Winans Camel, but it was shelved. Here's a picture of the model:

http://www.smrtrains.com/pix/hopper/hopper_3r_rs.jpg

MR has published plans. I think it was in 1986 or so. I remember that Gordon Odegard had a writeup and remarked that "the most difficult parts" of building a model would be the three-pot hopper, the unusual nonswiveling trucks, and the odd-sized wheels. It didn't leave much! :D

(It could be done, of course.)

[dehusman]

I am interested in modeling a coal hauling railroad in the 1870s-1900s era and was wondering about the best rolling stock to use. 

A man after my own heart.

I've seen 55-ton, 2-bay, 34-foot hoppers, but most appear to model steel construction.  The best one I've seen yet is an Accurail 55-ton wood side hopper.

That's a perfect car if you are modeling 1943 (that's when those cars were made, WW2).

  Is there a better car to use out there?

Why certainly. 

www.btsrr.com has some 4 wheel coal jennies, used by virtually every railroad on the east coast from the 1860's to the 1890's. 

The next most popular hopper car was a wooden truss sided hopper, with a truss made of 6x6 wood, about 24-30 feet long.  Just after that came the gondolas.  There you have your choice of plain gondolas, hopper bottom gondolas and drop bottom gondolas.  Gondolas were very popular from the 1880's until the 1900's. In the 1890's wooden hoppers became more popular with higher sides, one central outlet on the bottom.  they started out with wood side stakes and a wooden center sill and evolved to wooden sides with steel side stakes and center sill.

Bachmann makes a 1870's-1880's gondola and Old and Weary Car shops makes a resin hopper bottom gon that is dead on.

Once you get to the late 1890's and early 1900's you can use the steel undrerframe cars, the Bowser GLa hopper and the GS gon, the USRA rib side hoppers are close to Pressed Steel Car Co cars and then there are the Westerfield kits. On all of these (other than Westerfield) the grab irons are all wrong (they are all post 1910 safety appliances) but the basic cars is OK.  You can also use the F&C cast resin composite gon and a couple of the F&C hopper bottom cars.

By 1905 the steel cars were pretty common (50-50 steel and wood cars) and by WW1 the wood cars were definitely on their way out.  Ironically wood cars had a last hurrah in the early 1900's and some were built even into the 1920's because the acids from the coal tended to badly corrode the early steel cars but didn't affect the wooden lined cars.

Dave H.

[ereimer]

the Tichy ore car may not be 100% prototypical for the time , region or railroad you're modelling but it is a very nice kit , and is available in pairs or by the dozen

 

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/293-4012

 

ernie

[Winant]

Thanks to everyone for the responses.  I am planning not to model specifically any one railroad, but looking at a layout set in the middle Alleghany moutains: western Maryland, central PA and into WV. 

The B&O iron pot cars sound interesting.  Do you know of any models currently made or available? 

 

[richg1998]

These are discussed in the ER kit group also.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ER_Kits/

The below person models this era.

http://www.housatonicrr.com/

Rich

 

[Autobus Prime]

I am interested in modeling a coal hauling railroad in the 1870s-1900s era and was wondering about the best rolling stock to use.  I've seen 55-ton, 2-bay, 34-foot hoppers, but most appear to model steel construction.  The best one I've seen yet is an Accurail 55-ton wood side hopper.  Is there a better car to use out there?

W:

The anthracite roads that hauled a lot of coal used a lot of 4-wheeled coal jimmies in the 1800s. Red Ball has made them, and maybe they still do. Alkem Scale Models sells them, too.

Information:
http://www.earlyrail.org/jimmies/

Alkem site:
http://www.geocities.com/bkempins/ASMMain/Main.html

The B&O had a unique iron-pot hopper car that they built and used in large numbers.

There was a lot of variety back then. What sort of coal road are you planning (locale, etc.)?

[Iain42]

In the 1880, hoppers would have been modified gondolas, and rare at that.  Your best bet is a fleet of 25' gons.  Once again, it depends on the railroad.

Your best bet is to ask that question on the Yahoo Early Rail list:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EarlyRail/ 

[cacole]

During that time frame, even gondolas were used by some railroads, so the answer to your question is going to be a case of, "what railroad?" just as much as what type of car to use.  Wood sided, 2-bay hoppers would probably have been the most common and largest in use back then.

[Winant]

I am interested in modeling a coal hauling railroad in the 1870s-1900s era and was wondering about the best rolling stock to use.  I've seen 55-ton, 2-bay, 34-foot hoppers, but most appear to model steel construction.  The best one I've seen yet is an Accurail 55-ton wood side hopper.  Is there a better car to use out there?