foible Is it better to use insulfrog turnouts for DCC?
Is it better to use insulfrog turnouts for DCC?
I have 50+ Atlas Customline turnouts with insulated frogs running DCC. I've never had an issue with any locomotive going through them.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
My layout uses about 36 Peco 75 electrofrogs, and over 6 or 7 years, I have run about 130 locos of every vintage with nary a short or stop on a dead spot. DCC or DC. This is due to two simple mods that can be done to code 83 and 75 (but not code 100*) Pecos. They need to be done before installation and are easy, taking only a few minutes. Peco documents the first, but for some reason, not the second.
When you turn the switch over, you can see the jumpers between frog and closure rails. Both should be disconnected. That's documented. Obviously, a frog wire should be added if not provided since the points will no longer be providing frog power.
Now look at the plastic about two-three inches from the frog toward the points. There are gaps to solder jumpers from the stock rails to the closure rails. Not documented, but IMPORTANT.
Upon inspection, note that the position of the gaps in the closure rails makes it very unlikely that metal wheels or even minor derailments will cause shorts. The second mod ensures that oxide or dirt between the point rails (or point shoes) and the stock rails cannot cause loss of power. And with a powered frog, even the crankiest engines should work.
*Unfortunately, the older Peco code 100 requires some more difficult mods, namely cutting new gaps. 100 users might prefer to leave well enough alone since the 100's work as is, although not so DCC-friendly. I'd still recommend adding frog wires to 100's so the cleanliness issue goes away.
I use the power routing in my yard ladders because I won't be operating on more than one siding at a time. The drawback is that trains on the dead branches lose lights and sound. Builders can always negate the power routing with insulators and feeders where desired for for that or multi-user reasons.
Hal
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
I use Peco code 55 (N scale) electro frogs with DCC and have no problems. I have gaps after each turnout, whether it has a facing turnout or not. I then powered both legs after the turnout. This is just a personal preference so that all rails are powered at all times. The only time I have a short is operator error (forget to align the turnout).
POWER ROUTING SWITCH FROGS chang polarity with the throw (So do PECO's).
DCC requires a dead frog to keep polarity constant. Insul-frog does both . The difference is in how it is wired.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm
No matter what you buy, it can be converted. Big deal. (SEE 2-17 above)
ADVICE: Buy 'Electro-frogs for now, and convert them when you have more experience.
All DEAD frogs put an electrical gap in a locomotive's path that can stall certain old engines with limited electrical pickiprup over this gap. Most current offerings do not have this problem.
It's your railroad, do what you want, or you will complain for ever. I have just over 200 Peco insul and electro on my three deck railroad (plus Shinohara) and they all operate fine with DCC for me. Big deal, put a few jumpers where needed. I would always trust wire jumpers over rail joiners anyway. If you want good operation do it right to begin with. Otherwise you won't be happy in the future.
Bob
thanks to all.
power routing is not a big concern of mine, so insulfrog it will be.
I have used both types Peco turnouts. I prefer insulfrog for DCC, which I now use.
I thinkn the dead spots in Peco turnouts aren't really the frogs, but if you ballast and paint, the interior rails past the swith points often lose contact. As with any turnout, adding jumper wires to these ensures reliability, and you can do it up front, or as problems occur. If you don't relay on point contact, they run fine.
If you are running late model engines with at least two axles picking up power, you are sure to need nothing more than to install insulfrog turnouts and have fun. No extra wiring or switches. I did have problems with one small diesel switcher, an SW8 by P2K Walthers. When I realized, shortly after I began to first run it, and it stalled every four inches, that it had one axle with rubber traction tires, I swapped out that set with metal rimmed tires and have not looked back. I have a tiny P2K 0-6-0 switcher, but its tender also picks up power. So everything I own, Trainmaster, bigger steamers, all have wheelbases in excess of 2" between the outer axles that pick up power. The dead zoned frogs in Peco Insulfrog turnouts are considerably less than that. So statistically, one axle, at a minimum, will always be on powered rails. No stalls...no pushing.
You can always power the frogs later if you do have trouble. The guards are metal, and even though the frog point is non-metallic, you can power the guards to help get items through the frogs. In the insulfrog turnouts, they have tiny plastic spacers filling small gaps.
Electrofrogs have all-metal frogs, they are desirable for "power routing"-the elect. flow goes in the direction the frog is thrown. (Shinohara has the same design) This is desirable for stub-end staging and engine tracks, the power only goes to the direction the frog is thrown and the other track is is electrically dead.
The main thing with all-metal frogs is to feed the power to the point ends, and to place an insulated "gap" between the turnouts when a pair of frogs face each other, such as on a siding or runaround track.
The only Peco turnouts that I have are Insul-frogs, and a couple of Double-slip switches. The double-slips have electrified frogs. They have a wire coming from them that you must wire up yourself.
I am not sure about the regular Electro-frog turnouts by Peco, but if you look at one and it has a wire coming from it on the bottom, you will need to wire it yourself. So look first.
For the most reliable operation, a powered frog is the way to go, but most times it is also more work. Quite a few ready-made turnouts will require some work to make them bullet proof, but the extra work is worth it in the long run.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
WaxonWaxov wrote:So if my layout is going to be a shelf running DC for now, expanding to larger and DCC later I would want to use insulfrogs with no (electrical) modification?so confusing.
so confusing.
So if my layout is going to be a shelf running DC for now, expanding to larger and DCC later I would want to use insulfrogs with no (electrical) modification?
I run all Peco insulfrogs. Their advantage is ease of installation. I have no problems with dead spots due to the insulated frog, The smallest loco I run is a P2K sw1200. I think you could expect stalling locos if you are running the LL Teakettle, or older locos that only pick up power from a single axle.
Anything that picks up power from multiple axles will be fine.
The dead spot in the insulfrog turnout is so small that you should have no problem with power pickup. The only problem I have found with the Peco turnouts is the gap on the guard rail being to wide and alowing a wheel to pick the frog point. The best fix is to glue a shim to close the gap between the guard rail and stock rail. Other than that they seem very good and durable trackwork.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
"So electrofrog means the frog polarity is changed when the switch is thrown, yes? Yes. So is Insulfrog (jumpered internally) Here's the thing: I don't want to push a loco through a deadspot turnout (which I've had to do too many times at other people's layouts) Most of 'today's engines have all wheel pickup. (not so with older 'cheapies', or short wheelbase engines) So I think "why would I ever get insulfrog instead of electro frog"? For DCC , period.
"So electrofrog means the frog polarity is changed when the switch is thrown, yes?
Yes. So is Insulfrog (jumpered internally)
Here's the thing: I don't want to push a loco through a deadspot turnout (which I've had to do too many times at other people's layouts)
Most of 'today's engines have all wheel pickup. (not so with older 'cheapies', or short wheelbase engines)
So I think "why would I ever get insulfrog instead of electro frog"?
For DCC , period.
WaxonWaxov wrote:So I think "why would I ever get insulfrog instead of electro frog"
wedudler wrote: An engine with a long wheelbase will run over a non powered frog. Bu I like small critters. Therefore all my frogs are powered via switch. And I've made my turnouts DCC friendly, Wiring for DCC Wolfgang
An engine with a long wheelbase will run over a non powered frog. Bu I like small critters. Therefore all my frogs are powered via switch. And I've made my turnouts DCC friendly, Wiring for DCC
Wolfgang
Cool... thanks... crap looks like I'd have to modify either type of turnout.
Pueblo & Salt Lake RR
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So electrofrog means the frog polarity is changed when the switch is thrown, yes?