SP Daylight Overkill?

[Morgan49]

Morgan--

Thanks for the info link on the "49'er" but now I'm thoroughly confused after reading it.  There's a photograph of a passenger train in John Signor's DONNER PASS that shows a distinctly two-tone gray short passenger train hauled by an AC, and a train that looks like an ALL lightweight train with articulated cars.  The train is labelled as the '49'er', but the shot is a rear (observation to the front) shot, so that the forward cars are not really clear.  But to these eyes, it looks all lightweight. 

Like I said, unless these old eyes are failing me, now I'm THOROUGHLY confused, LOL!

Tom

 

for every rule there is an exception. Also for almost every train there is a second or sometimes third section. Not sure But I beleive the description on that sight is the train as it was at conception. It chnaged a lot even in the first year. SP was good at disquising heavy weight cars . Some light wieghts even had 3 axle trucks. Some of the triple uinit diner/coffe/taverns were wrecked and rebuilt as coaches but retained the center 3 axle truck. If you look hard enough you can find almost anything on the SP. Even a UP Bullmoose running through Dunsmuir.

[twhite]

Morgan--

Thanks for the info link on the "49'er" but now I'm thoroughly confused after reading it.  There's a photograph of a passenger train in John Signor's DONNER PASS that shows a distinctly two-tone gray short passenger train hauled by an AC, and a train that looks like an ALL lightweight train with articulated cars.  The train is labelled as the '49'er', but the shot is a rear (observation to the front) shot, so that the forward cars are not really clear.  But to these eyes, it looks all lightweight. 

Like I said, unless these old eyes are failing me, now I'm THOROUGHLY confused, LOL!

Tom

[Morgan49]

Hmm--does this link mean that the Athearn cars are going to be in the Tomato Stripe instead of Daylight colors?  If so, it seems as if it's going to be confusing the issue, to me.  Though I will admit that during the later years of SP passenger service, between Daylight, Tomato Stripe, Overland and UP-clone paint jobs, those SP passenger trains were certainly COLORFUL, LOL! 

I remember living in Truckee during the summers of the late 'fifties and very early 'sixties, and whenever the COSF or OVERLAND would come through, the variety of paint schemes was kind of mind-boggling. 

Tom

As I understand it, the Daylight cars will be in Daylight. But the Car they released now is coming out in Tomato, Two Tone, et al because it has been or was close to cars in those schemes. Other general coaches may follow this one and be painted into other SP schemes.

 

the first coach they are releasing came originally in multiple paint schemes. In the 50's they were repainted many times and quite a few were in the "golden state" scheme a.k.a. tomatoe.

[Morgan49]

TWhite, the 49er was mostly Heavyweight with only the last three cars being lightweight with the first two sleepers being articulated. I will have to get the names and sleeper types from the bible of UP passenger cars/trains.

Charlie

Actually there was more than 3 light weights but non were the 37 articulated chair cars.

 

take a look at this link

 http://espee.railfan.net/49er.html

this would be a tall order to ask of a plastic manufacturer due to it being a very custom paint scheme, a small train that ran every 6 days and for a very short pre-war period.

Neat idea though.

 

 

[Morgan49]

There is one scheme that Athearn has omittes. Quite a few of these chair cars were painted in GS green (coach green)

Charlie

 They were painted SP version of pulman green. Some were for general use while some had specific trains such as the  joint UP/SP San Francisco challenger .

This train ran  for only 10 years and was designed to lure depression era passengers back to train travel.

 

if you scroll down on the following link you can see one of esspee's 79' coaches painted green for this train.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_(passenger_train)

[Morgan49]

IIRC, the 37 articulated chair cars contained 50 seats per car with the lead car having the womens restroom. I do believe they had 44, 46 and 50 seat articulated chair cars.

Charlie

 

I have the pulman plans of these. THe 37's did have 50 seats, while the  the 39,40,41 all had 44 seats. The 39,40,41 were 4 feet longer but used that extra space for the bagage elevator that the 37/38 cars did not have.

[Charlie]

TWhite, the 49er was mostly Heavyweight with only the last three cars being lightweight with the first two sleepers being articulated. I will have to get the names and sleeper types from the bible of UP passenger cars/trains.

Charlie

[Charlie]

There is one scheme that Athearn has omittes. Quite a few of these chair cars were painted in GS green (coach green)

Charlie

[twhite]

Also, as far as articulated cars on the Espee, we shouldn't forget the "49'er" which was a fairly short lived CNW/UP/SP train that ran in 1939 for the Pacific Exposition on Treasure Island in San Francisco Bay.  Painted in two-tone-gray "Overland" colors, I have a photo of it running in the Sierra behind a cab-forward through Gold Run in the Sierra Nevada.  From the photo, it looks as if almost EVERY car is articulated.  From what I understand, it ran in direct competition to the Burlington/Rio Grande/WP "Exposition Flyer", and of course, beat it to Oakland due to the shorter run on the SP.  Both were first-class passenger trains, but the '49'er was made up of Pullman light-weight equipment.  REALLY handsome articulated train, though short-lived. 

I also remember the train that SP ran from Oakland to Ogden to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the Golden Spike Ceremony in 1969.  I only rode it from Sacramento to Truckee, but it was chock full of SP articulated coaches.  It was something else watching those coaches turn the curves from the inside seating--almost as spectacular as the Sierra scenery outside those big windows.

In other words:  WOW!    

Tom

[Flashwave]

Hmm--does this link mean that the Athearn cars are going to be in the Tomato Stripe instead of Daylight colors?  If so, it seems as if it's going to be confusing the issue, to me.  Though I will admit that during the later years of SP passenger service, between Daylight, Tomato Stripe, Overland and UP-clone paint jobs, those SP passenger trains were certainly COLORFUL, LOL! 

I remember living in Truckee during the summers of the late 'fifties and very early 'sixties, and whenever the COSF or OVERLAND would come through, the variety of paint schemes was kind of mind-boggling. 

Tom

As I understand it, the Daylight cars will be in Daylight. But the Car they released now is coming out in Tomato, Two Tone, et al because it has been or was close to cars in those schemes. Other general coaches may follow this one and be painted into other SP schemes.

 

[Charlie]

IIRC, the 37 articulated chair cars contained 50 seats per car with the lead car having the womens restroom. I do believe they had 44, 46 and 50 seat articulated chair cars.

Charlie

[Morgan49]

The book doesn't really state which cars are which as by that time, one could see cars from the Morning Daylight, Noon Daylight and the Coast Daylight. The book indicates that most of the articulated chair cars were scrapped by '67 but, these were from the first Daylights.

Charlie

 

I left this tid bit out.

in 37  2 articulated units were built for the T&NO. They later came to the western division and were renumbered and repainted in 2 tone grey. SP retired them in 1974. they were held by a private owner and then restored to original colors and saw sevice around the country behind 4449 on various excursions. So you can have original articulated coaches operating into the 1990's!!

[Morgan49]

The book doesn't really state which cars are which as by that time, one could see cars from the Morning Daylight, Noon Daylight and the Coast Daylight. The book indicates that most of the articulated chair cars were scrapped by '67 but, these were from the first Daylights.

Charlie

 

SOme of the 37 articulateds were the last cars retired. Around 1970-71. A few still exhist today. I rode them in 89 on the California western. They have moved since them. Not sure where. The 37,38s looked different than the later ones.

"southern pacific passenger trains " volumes 1 and 2 have some info on disposition of various cars.

One picture shows one of 3 37 articulated chairs that stayed in daylight colors their entire life being retired in 66. they still had their original trucks and steam ejector AC when retired.

Another train that had the daylight painted cars in 37 was the californian. many of these were not retired untill 1970.

An interesting but not important difference between the 37/38 cars and later ones is that while the 39-41 articulated cars were longer they had 4 fewer seats.

[Charlie]

The book doesn't really state which cars are which as by that time, one could see cars from the Morning Daylight, Noon Daylight and the Coast Daylight. The book indicates that most of the articulated chair cars were scrapped by '67 but, these were from the first Daylights.

Charlie

[Morgan49]

Athearn is showing their SP GS 48 seat chair car as in stock so that means I should be getting my model in the next two weeks give or take. I expect all three trains to be out around the same time. Athearn's train show more promise as those cars wound up on just about all of SP's trains over time while the cars from BLI/PCM and MTH were rather captive to the Coast/Morning Daylights thru out it's lifetime.

Charlie

 

The athearn car limits you to post war trains post 1950 do to no slirting and updated trucks.

As to being limited by the BLI/PCM/MTH cars , that depends on which cars. Many of the coaches and articulated coaches made it to other trains.  The post war version could end up on many trains system wide. Some were bult as pool cars or for other trains specificly. SP only used between 4-12 articulated coaches on their coast daylights. By 1941 they owned enough of them that they ran on most of the major routes (shasta,overland, sunset,coast,and San Jauqin)in multiple paint schemes.Some were factorydelivered in Pullman green for the SP challenger. So either the Athearn or the the BLI post war cars have a lot of uses.

 

Here are some consists from the book Southern Pacific Passenger Train Consists and Cars 1955-1958

Shasta Daylight-1957                    San Juaquin Daylight-1958          Coast Daylight

Baggage Postal                             Mail Apartment                         Baggage Chair 38seats

Chair car 46seats                          Baggage-Express                      Chair car 44seats

Chair car 48seats                          Baggage (Tue only)                   Chair car 44seats 

Chair car 48seats                          Baggage chair 38seats               Chair car 44seats

Chair car 48seats                          Chair car 44seats                      Chair car 44seats

Chair car 44seats                          Chair car 44seats                      Chair car 44seats 

Chair dorm 38seats                        Chair car 44seats                      Chair car 44seats

Artic coffee shop/kitchen/diner        Hamburger grill                          Chair car 44seats 

Chair car 48seats                          Coffeshop diner                         Chair car 44seats

Chair car 48seats                          Dome lounge                             Artic Coffe/kitch/diner 

Chair car 48seats                          Chair car 44seats                      Chair car 44seats 

Chair car 44seats                          Chair car 44seats                      Chair car 44seats

Chair car 44seats                          Chair car 44seats                      Chair car 44seats 

Parlor obs 22seats                         Chair car 44seats                      Chair car 44seats 

                                                  Chair car 44seats                      Chair car 44seats

                                                  Chair car 44seats                      Chair car 44seats

                                                                                               Tavern Car

                                                                                               Parlor 27seats

                                                                                               Parlor obs 22seats

To bad the list doesn't tell you which cars they were. SP ordered cras of those types in 37,38,39,40,and 41. They were all different. Some changes were more noticable than others. The biggest and most noticable change post war were the skirts and the trucks. The original trucks were rather disticntive and each version had suttle differences , mostly how many break cylinders and their placement. Post war the trucks were updated to roller bearings and eventualy replaced all together with a newer less intereting style of truck. the 37,38 cars did not have the bagage elevator that the 39-41 cars had. By the 50's many but not all of the cars had there sides replaced with smooth sides.  Some articulated cars had half smooth and half fluted sides. The list above while interesting doesn't help with which cars are appropriate on which train.

[Charlie]

Athearn is showing their SP GS 48 seat chair car as in stock so that means I should be getting my model in the next two weeks give or take. I expect all three trains to be out around the same time. Athearn's train show more promise as those cars wound up on just about all of SP's trains over time while the cars from BLI/PCM and MTH were rather captive to the Coast/Morning Daylights thru out it's lifetime.

Charlie

I'm assuming you mean these:

link

I noticed the "early September" due date has been replaced with a price but I checked with my LHS and they said not to expect them until early next year.

The original due date was late Aug then has been changed to early Sep. Horizon's website lists a due date of middle Sep. I'll go with Horizons rather than that of a LHS 

[twhite]

Hmm--does this link mean that the Athearn cars are going to be in the Tomato Stripe instead of Daylight colors?  If so, it seems as if it's going to be confusing the issue, to me.  Though I will admit that during the later years of SP passenger service, between Daylight, Tomato Stripe, Overland and UP-clone paint jobs, those SP passenger trains were certainly COLORFUL, LOL! 

I remember living in Truckee during the summers of the late 'fifties and very early 'sixties, and whenever the COSF or OVERLAND would come through, the variety of paint schemes was kind of mind-boggling. 

Tom

[Left Coast Rail]

Athearn is showing their SP GS 48 seat chair car as in stock so that means I should be getting my model in the next two weeks give or take. I expect all three trains to be out around the same time. Athearn's train show more promise as those cars wound up on just about all of SP's trains over time while the cars from BLI/PCM and MTH were rather captive to the Coast/Morning Daylights thru out it's lifetime.

Charlie

I'm assuming you mean these:

link

I noticed the "early September" due date has been replaced with a price but I checked with my LHS and they said not to expect them until early next year.

[Charlie]

Athearn is showing their SP GS 48 seat chair car as in stock so that means I should be getting my model in the next two weeks give or take. I expect all three trains to be out around the same time. Athearn's train show more promise as those cars wound up on just about all of SP's trains over time while the cars from BLI/PCM and MTH were rather captive to the Coast/Morning Daylights thru out it's lifetime.

Charlie

 

The athearn car limits you to post war trains post 1950 do to no slirting and updated trucks.

As to being limited by the BLI/PCM/MTH cars , that depends on which cars. Many of the coaches and articulated coaches made it to other trains.  The post war version could end up on many trains system wide. Some were bult as pool cars or for other trains specificly. SP only used between 4-12 articulated coaches on their coast daylights. By 1941 they owned enough of them that they ran on most of the major routes (shasta,overland, sunset,coast,and San Jauqin)in multiple paint schemes.Some were factorydelivered in Pullman green for the SP challenger. So either the Athearn or the the BLI post war cars have a lot of uses.

 

Here are some consists from the book Southern Pacific Passenger Train Consists and Cars 1955-1958

Shasta Daylight-1957                    San Juaquin Daylight-1958          Coast Daylight

Baggage Postal                             Mail Apartment                         Baggage Chair 38seats

Chair car 46seats                          Baggage-Express                      Chair car 44seats

Chair car 48seats                          Baggage (Tue only)                   Chair car 44seats 

Chair car 48seats                          Baggage chair 38seats               Chair car 44seats

Chair car 48seats                          Chair car 44seats                      Chair car 44seats

Chair car 44seats                          Chair car 44seats                      Chair car 44seats 

Chair dorm 38seats                        Chair car 44seats                      Chair car 44seats

Artic coffee shop/kitchen/diner        Hamburger grill                          Chair car 44seats 

Chair car 48seats                          Coffeshop diner                         Chair car 44seats

Chair car 48seats                          Dome lounge                             Artic Coffe/kitch/diner 

Chair car 48seats                          Chair car 44seats                      Chair car 44seats 

Chair car 44seats                          Chair car 44seats                      Chair car 44seats

Chair car 44seats                          Chair car 44seats                      Chair car 44seats 

Parlor obs 22seats                         Chair car 44seats                      Chair car 44seats 

                                                  Chair car 44seats                      Chair car 44seats

                                                  Chair car 44seats                      Chair car 44seats

                                                                                               Tavern Car

                                                                                               Parlor 27seats

                                                                                               Parlor obs 22seats

[Morgan49]

Athearn is showing their SP GS 48 seat chair car as in stock so that means I should be getting my model in the next two weeks give or take. I expect all three trains to be out around the same time. Athearn's train show more promise as those cars wound up on just about all of SP's trains over time while the cars from BLI/PCM and MTH were rather captive to the Coast/Morning Daylights thru out it's lifetime.

Charlie

 

The athearn car limits you to post war trains post 1950 do to no slirting and updated trucks.

As to being limited by the BLI/PCM/MTH cars , that depends on which cars. Many of the coaches and articulated coaches made it to other trains.  The post war version could end up on many trains system wide. Some were bult as pool cars or for other trains specificly. SP only used between 4-12 articulated coaches on their coast daylights. By 1941 they owned enough of them that they ran on most of the major routes (shasta,overland, sunset,coast,and San Jauqin)in multiple paint schemes.Some were factorydelivered in Pullman green for the SP challenger. So either the Athearn or the the BLI post war cars have a lot of uses.

[Charlie]

Athearn is showing their SP GS 48 seat chair car as in stock so that means I should be getting my model in the next two weeks give or take. I expect all three trains to be out around the same time. Athearn's train show more promise as those cars wound up on just about all of SP's trains over time while the cars from BLI/PCM and MTH were rather captive to the Coast/Morning Daylights thru out it's lifetime.

Charlie

[CAZEPHYR]

 

 

If all three companies do offer some version of the Great Daylight train, the first company out to our market with a good representation of the complete train will probably make money on the deal.  There will be a rush to purchase the train and since the overall price is much less than brass, they should sell well.   I noticed that some of the complete brass Daylight trains are now showing up for sale here and there, but I have not found a great bargain yet.  I am fairly confident that the plastic models will be very good and might even be better than some of the previous brass models.

I could use and will purchase any version of the train at a deep discounted price, but I prefer the Post War II version since I have several GS4's and 5's Daylights already in the Post War lettering.    I skipped the PCM PA's since they replaced the GS's on the coast line in early 55 and my favorite SP era is from the late forties to the early fifties.

CZ

 

[Morgan49]

SP's Starlight, an over-night coach train between LA and San Francisco), also carried Daylight cars (articulated chair cars, coffee shop, lounge, parlor/observation) beginning in 1949.  (I had a suspicion I left out a Daylight train from my earlier post.)  The Morning Daylight drew the newest and best cars, the San Joaquin Daylight held second priority following discontinuance of the Noon Daylight, and the Starlight operated with what was left.  The Shasta Daylight had its own equipment pool.

Mark

 

SP never had a starlight, You are probably thinking of the lark or the coaster. The lark had its own paint scheme but did have some of the same equipment as the daylight. The coaster was an over night coach train that was a mix of heavy and light weight coaches. Some of which were ocasionally daylight colored articulated coaches. The Startlight is an Amtrak creation that came after the demise of SP passenger trains.

 

I stand corrected.

SP did have a starlight. After asking around I found pictures and info on it. It did use the older daylight equipment (1938 and older) and had a mix of paint schemes including green, lark and daylight schemes. It did not last long. 1949-1957.

 

[Morgan49]

Doug--

I can only go by what I remember, and I could be wrong, but to my knowledge, the only 'Daylight' heavyweights I remember on the SP were the head-end cars used on the San Joaquin.  SP did paint some of their heavyweights in the so-called 'Overland' two-tone gray, however, used on the LARK and the CASCADE during the war years and after. 

 

My memory is similar, but I do know that in addition to heavyweight head-end cars on the San Joaquin Daylight, there were heavyweight dining cars (while coffee-shop cars were lightweights).  The San Joaquin Daylight was the "third sister" of the Coastal, Shasta, and San Joaquin siblings.  Thus, the SJD operated older and less desirable cars compared to its sisters.

Mark

 

four ways west published 2 books on SP passenger trains. One is on day trains  of the coast and has many photos of SP passenger cars and a bit of history on many of them.

A good example wood be SP heavyweight 3232 . This car was converted from a bagage club to a daylight heavyweight lounge car and used as a  protection for the SJD. As for coaches, SP used non daylight colored heavyweight cars left over from the 1930 grey daylight for the 2nd and 3rd sections that they had to run for the coast daylight. They used both harrimanand standard heavyweights for diners. A few were painted daylight but most were run as is for protection purposes . Most of the daylight head end cars were standard heavyweights and ended up on the SJD.

[Morgan49]

SP's Starlight, an over-night coach train between LA and San Francisco), also carried Daylight cars (articulated chair cars, coffee shop, lounge, parlor/observation) beginning in 1949.  (I had a suspicion I left out a Daylight train from my earlier post.)  The Morning Daylight drew the newest and best cars, the San Joaquin Daylight held second priority following discontinuance of the Noon Daylight, and the Starlight operated with what was left.  The Shasta Daylight had its own equipment pool.

Mark

 

SP never had a starlight, You are probably thinking of the lark or the coaster. The lark had its own paint scheme but did have some of the same equipment as the daylight. The coaster was an over night coach train that was a mix of heavy and light weight coaches. Some of which were ocasionally daylight colored articulated coaches. The Startlight is an Amtrak creation that came after the demise of SP passenger trains.

[Morgan49]

 

The three upcoming Daylight trains shouldn't, hopefully, be all duplicates.  Even assuming they all model the Coast Daylight train, there were significant variations.  The biggest differences were between the pre- and post-1946 trains which are very apparent to even sophomoric students of the SP.  Anyone considering buying these models might best be aware of the differences.

Personally, I'd be happier if heavyweight SP models were to be produced.  I understand, however, the marketing appeal is probably much higher for the colorful Daylight scheme.

Mark

 To be specific.

BLI is producing the 41 tain set in both pre and post war versions. Same cars with different lettering and no slirts post war.

MTH is also producing the 41 pre war set.

Athearn is producing some of th 37 cars as they appeared late in their life but not as built.

Ironicly some of the 37 atriculated cars remained in daylight colors untill retirement and were largely unchanged.

 So the 39 set pre and post war , the 37 cars as built and some of the in between oddball cars are being left out.

[challenger3980]

  Hi Tom,

  I don't deny that in the Challenger Class, UP's later Heavy Challengers (Compared to their first class of Challengers) are the most produced version, and  I do Feel for the guys who yearn for an NP, or Rio Grande Baldwin built. I just agreed with Don7, that I felt 40 Different versions was a bit of a stretch. I have for a long time wanted an early version UP Challenger, which the only option  there is also Brass. There are a lot of Locomotives that should be built that haven't been yet. In this respect it is a little surprising the selection that we 3-rail O-Gaugers have, such as the SP AC-9, the B&O EM-1, and C&O H-7 (also in UP) among others, although these do often exceed the price of HO Brass. If there Really were 40 Different versions of  the UP Challengers built, I would be interested in hearing more about the ones that I am not familiar with, but I do believe 40 to be an exaggeration.

                   Doug

[twhite]

Doug--

Not to get off the "Daylight" thread, but I think the reason that the UP Challenger has been produced (or over-produced, depending on your point of view) is that #3985 is still very visible today, hauling excursion trains.  When a lot of people think of the 4-6-6-4 wheel arrangement, the first thing that comes to mind is UP (which, come to think of it, originated the wheel arrangement to begin with). 

Oddly enough, the UP versions were the LIGHTEST in tractive effort of the major 4-6-6-4's, the NP, SP&S, WM and Rio Grande versions were all more powerful, but the UP version was made for a specific type of run and each type of 4-6-6-4 served their railroads very successfully.  The wheel arrangement seemed perfectly balanced for what the specific railroads wanted.  For my money, the 4-6-6-4 wheel arrangement-no matter WHAT the railroad--was one of the most graceful of ALL articulated designs.     

For my own preferences, I'm more fond of the Baldwin-built L-105's for the Rio Grande and the Alco-built Z's used by the three Hill railroads in the northwest.  But that's a personal thing--I like my articulateds not so 'clean-lined' and with the 'guts' hanging out, so to speak.  Besides, those big, fat 'eyebrow-hung' Elesco feed-water heaters on the early Rio Grande units just SPELLED power.  Just like the extended boilers and front-hung pumps on the Alco Z's.  They had a way of coming AT you, LOL! 

But UP has the only operational locomotive of this wheel arrangement, and so I think the Mfgrs are more prone to release it.  Familiarity, you know.

So right now, it looks as if we 'other' Challenger fans are relegated to brass. 

And with that said, I now return us to the "Daylight Overkill" thread--and I agree with Mark--the various trains planned are not going to be duplications, but different versions of various SP trains.  Those of us who love the railroad (and I'm certainly among them) can travel up the coast, or through the Tehachapi's, depending on what we want to do with them. 

Of course, I wouldn't mind at all heading up through the Cascades with mine, but the "Shasta" is ONE Daylight that isn't on the boards. 

Tom

[challenger3980]

According to the Walthers website and MTH's website, MTH will be coming out with their verison of the Southern Pacific Daylight trains.  It looks like SP modelers will have plenty of choices when it comes to modeling Trains 98/99 between BLI/PCM, Athearns and now MTH.  I do personally do love the train and it's nice to see it being made/sold for a semi-affordable price but is there really a huge market to warrent 3 manufactures producing the same train?  It's as if the SP Daylight has become to HO-scale passenger cars what the F-units has become to HO-scale locomotive.  I would think that the manufacturers would want to offer something different as oppose to going head to head with each other over a niche train.

Only 3?? Couple years ago there were 40 different UP Challengers available IIRC!! That's apparently how model railroading works, the manufacturers get together and all decide to make identical models and issue them at the same time. Why make a Northern Pacific Challenger when you can be the 41st manufacturer to make a UP one?? Heaven forbid you make a model of something no one else makes (no matter how many people want to buy one!).

40 Different UP Challengers? Are you serious or is this an exaggeration?

  Me thinks that this is an exaggeration. 

  Lionel HO in 2003 did probably the largest selection at one time, they had 8 different UNION PACIFIC paint scheme/road# variations, plus 2 road#s each for the D&RGW and Clinchfield, which the D&RGW versions were diverted by the War Production Board from a UP order. Those divereted D&RGW Challengers were just leased for the duration of the war, then sold to the Clinchfield. COUNTING the D&RGW and Clinchfield models that makes 12 versions for Lionel(they even did the correct single stack version for the Clinchfield)

  Athearn did, I forget if it was 3, or 4 versions, we are now up to 15 or 16.

  Rivarossi has done some UNION PACIFIC Challengers, I don't know the exact number, but I doubt that it was more than, or EVEN 4, which would put us at 20, FEWER, if you are only counting those with UNION PACIFIC painted on the tender(which You DID state UNION PACIFIC Challengers SPECIFICALLY)

   So PLEASE cite the remaining 20(+) UNION PACIFIC Challengers that have been modeled, as a FAN of the Class myself, I would be Very interested in which ones I have missed. Yes I know that there were some Brass as well, but I believe that Brass wasn't questioned but rather mass produced, relatively affordable models were the point. But what the heck just how many Brass UNION PACIFIC Challengers do you know of?

   So I do believe that 40 UNION PACIFIC Challengers is a bit of an EXAGGERATION.

                       Doug

  ps, if you want to include BRASS, then I am sure that you could also find a Northern Pacific Challenger as well, lets just be balanced in our counting OK?