staging yards???? Do you have to have one????

[PA&ERR]

On my Port Able and Pacific which is based on the Seattle and North Coast, I use my car ferry as my "staging" yard. Like the S&NC, my road only interchanges with the rest of the world via the car ferry.

I've never been that thrilled with hidden track of any kind. It is a well known fact that the hidden spaces of the layout room is where the "gremlins" hide and do most of their dirty work.

-George 

[hobo9941]

I have four staging tracks under the layout. They are 15 feet long, and hold about 23 cars and two locos, each. I always have a couple trains hidden under the layout, in storage. Recently, my brother was over and I was running some trains while he watched. After about 20 minutes of running a couple freight trains, my Pere Marquette passenger train emerged toward the back of the layout, and pulled into the depot. He looked shocked, and said "Where'd that come from"? I just said "Cincinnatti".

[mike_ruby]

So I presume then you work on the the trains elsewhere and stash them away in staging.. that direct access is more of a "deal with problems" issue, not a day to day staging need? 

My current test layout is 56". I plan to go to 58" on the next one after I test 58" on this one with some wood blocks under the legs. So yeah. very tall.. but I am in N so it really improves my enjoyment of the layout. I like having the trackwork close to my eyes when I am working on it too.

Thanks,

Chris
 

 

 

I don't really need to work on the trains when they are stored. I run on a car card and waybill system, cars that have finished their assignment stay in the trains. When cars are required for industries on the layout I pick the waybills for that load and check through the train's car cards for empty cars of the required type, and place the waybill in the car card. Any cars in a train without a waybill just stay in the train. None of these trains terminate on the layout so it doesn't matter if cars have no destination. Any cars dropped off on the layout are switched by a local crew, which also sets out cars from the industries for pickup by the through trains.

My layout starts at 60" high, and climbs to about 66". The only problem is I can see the lack of details under some of my cars!

Mike Ruby

[4merroad4man]

So I presume then you work on the the trains elsewhere and stash them away in staging.. that direct access is more of a "deal with problems" issue, not a day to day staging need? 

My current test layout is 56". I plan to go to 58" on the next one after I test 58" on this one with some wood blocks under the legs. So yeah. very tall.. but I am in N so it really improves my enjoyment of the layout. I like having the trackwork close to my eyes when I am working on it too.

Thanks,

Chris
 

 

 

Let's offer a definition or two from my model's rulebook:  Staging Tracks (Hidden or Visible):  a yard or tracks where a train terminates its run under its own power.  It does not return to the visible portion of the layout, nor is it removed from its staging track until after an operating session is completed.  Staging Tracks are also where a train, pre-made with locomotives, departs under its own power to make a run on the visible portion of the layout. 

Fiddle Yard:  a track or series of tracks where terminating trains are removed from the yard by hand, locomotive or other device and placed in storage.  Other cars and locomotives are removed from storage and placed by hand, locomotive or other device to build a train which will depart under its own power.

Now, under these definitions, hidden staging has no real need for access except in the rare instance of a problem such as a derailment, etc.  Use of diodes near end of track will stop a train's movement into the assigned staging track, and block detectors and power switches ensure trains go where they are supposed to.  A fiddle yard allows the person in charge to physically remove arriving trains or build new ones with cars stored off the layout, and continue to do so as long as demand or schedules require.

[ChrisNH]

So I presume then you work on the the trains elsewhere and stash them away in staging.. that direct access is more of a "deal with problems" issue, not a day to day staging need? 

My current test layout is 56". I plan to go to 58" on the next one after I test 58" on this one with some wood blocks under the legs. So yeah. very tall.. but I am in N so it really improves my enjoyment of the layout. I like having the trackwork close to my eyes when I am working on it too.

Thanks,

Chris
 

 

 

[mike_ruby]

Another trick is to put the staging yard behind a viewblock such as a hill or row of buildings.

I have been considering exactly that for my staging. Could some folks who use that form of staging comment on the difficulty of using it.. that is.. having to deal with a staging yard that is set up behind a view block or low backdrop which is in turn behind the operating portion of the layout?

My concern is that a yard hidden back like that will not be very ergonomic. Put another way, a pain in the butt to work with the trains and the track back there. I do like how it would let me use the back wall of my layout and save areas with aisle space for sceniced portions.. and that I can probably use a mirror on the cieling to see trains moving in and out by looking up.

Right now I am looking at modeling a very slow bridge line I can operate alone or with a disinterested relative, but a little artist license would allow me to make it as busy as I like if I find some more people to share the hobby with me locally. 

Thanks,

 

Chris 

See my post on page three for my method of running a hidden yard, I have three CCTV cameras which feed back to the dispatchers desk, two at each end of the yard and one part way in covering a switch for a short loop. Another camera covers a hidden switch at the end of my main yard. These make it easy to stop trains at the correct position, and I put two trains into most of the loops (I have to make sure that both will fit!) I plan to add two mirrors to give a better view around the corners with the existing cameras.

Scenery is removable to allow access to the yard but I made sure all the track work was well laid, and apart for one incident (after messing with the switch programming) I barely ever need the access.

I didn't use an open yard like some, as it goes over half way around the room on a rising grade, with some mainline track above it, and would not have looked right. I also could not use 6 shorter tracks instead of the longer 3 tracks as that would have made the boards too wide, and forced sharper curves on the rest of the layout.

Mike Ruby

[MStLfan]

Another trick is to put the staging yard behind a viewblock such as a hill or row of buildings.

I have been considering exactly that for my staging. Could some folks who use that form of staging comment on the difficulty of using it.. that is.. having to deal with a staging yard that is set up behind a view block or low backdrop which is in turn behind the operating portion of the layout?

My concern is that a yard hidden back like that will not be very ergonomic. Put another way, a pain in the butt to work with the trains and the track back there. I do like how it would let me use the back wall of my layout and save areas with aisle space for sceniced portions.. and that I can probably use a mirror on the cieling to see trains moving in and out by looking up.

Right now I am looking at modeling a very slow bridge line I can operate alone or with a disinterested relative, but a little artist license would allow me to make it as busy as I like if I find some more people to share the hobby with me locally. 

Thanks,

Chris 

If your benchwork is not too deep it should not be a great problem. Height may be more problematic if you go for high layouts (chesthigh).

You can counter that by going modular/segmental (domino style I think is the name you use in the US). That way you can work at leisure on one or more parts till everything works perfect.

You may want to check out some British exhibition layouts which basically use this idea. Many are operated from the front these days rather than from the back.

Iain Rice has published two books with Kalmbach you may want to check out.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[Phoebe Vet]

I keep most of my trains in plain view in an exposed yard.

I do, however, have a small 3 track yard hidden in a mountain.  It is where Thomas the Tank Engine and Hogwart's Express live when the grandchildren are not around.

I do not simulate "out of town".

[ChrisNH]

Another trick is to put the staging yard behind a viewblock such as a hill or row of buildings.

I have been considering exactly that for my staging. Could some folks who use that form of staging comment on the difficulty of using it.. that is.. having to deal with a staging yard that is set up behind a view block or low backdrop which is in turn behind the operating portion of the layout?

My concern is that a yard hidden back like that will not be very ergonomic. Put another way, a pain in the butt to work with the trains and the track back there. I do like how it would let me use the back wall of my layout and save areas with aisle space for sceniced portions.. and that I can probably use a mirror on the cieling to see trains moving in and out by looking up.

Right now I am looking at modeling a very slow bridge line I can operate alone or with a disinterested relative, but a little artist license would allow me to make it as busy as I like if I find some more people to share the hobby with me locally. 

Thanks,

 

Chris 

[markpierce]

A long-ago layout of mine had both staging tracks and a second deck.  That was back in 1964 when in high school.  This was based on John Armstrong's suggestions.

Mark

[HEdward]

It's the age old argument, show off the trains or operate the railroad.  I'm going for both.  That's just me.  Do we need DCC?  Do we need sound?  Do we need staging?  Do we need turntables, roundhouses, water tanks, sanding towers, coaling tipples, diesel service tracks, operating signals, cabooses, train crews(in the loco's cab and the caboose) and DINOSAURS?

Can a railroad have a function without connecting to the outside world?  Maybe.  Can yours?  That is the question.  Wether running a train off the layout(removing interchanged cars using those two 0-5-0 switchers God gave you for your birthday)and putting them in a drawer, or simply sitting them in a hidden track, your railroad business is part of a larger world.

Now if we get together and lease that 190,000 sq ft warehouse and build our Z scale monster, maybe we can model a large enough universe not to need staging.  We'll do that right after we figure out how to get that Moose off the IRT.

[jfrank138]

My hobby hero remains the late Frank Ellison who set the standard for operating and scenic realism during the 1940s with his O-Scale Delta Lines.  Regarding hidden trackage he once wrote "For the luvva Pete, man, tear out those tunnels and bring the trains into view."  (Quoted from memory -- he actually was much more poetic.)

Ellison's writings have influenced my O-Scale railroad now under construction (around the walls in a room about 16 x 32 feet).  The design eschews staging yards, helixes, and other modern "musts" and substitutes my imagination.  As on the Delta Lines I even will allow a train to pass through some scenes more than once, thus violating the principle John Armstrong called "sincerity."  I am adopting some of Ellison's theatrical sleights-of-hand to make it work for me (I am a lone-wolf operator.)

I guess some of this is my reaction against what I see as a "too literal" approach to the hobby.  I don't object to that approach -- it's fine for others but it ain't what I am doing.  To each his/her own.

Ain't this stuff fun?

John 

[Beowulf]

Forty years ago, before staging was widely popular, I knew a fellow who got the same effect by having a number of interchange tracks on his layout.  Each interchange track was near the edge of the layout and each was accompanyed by one or more drawers (from old furniture) under the edge of the layout.

Between operating session he would switch the cars or entire train on each interchange track.  He had it planned in such a way that after eight monthly operating sessions, much of his equipment would have rotated through the drawers.

[ChristopherBlackwell]

mic staging.

Cassettes where short trains get stored

Regards,

Charlie Comstock 

 

I am planning on building a 20 foot by 20 foot building for my layout. So I expect t have at least 60 feet of mainline, but it will be a small and rather sleepy narrow gauge railroad and it is designed basically as a one man railroad. So one train on the line at a time. So for simplicity sake I will probably go with the Cassettes.

The next train will be set in place on the next cassette and some will be used for storage of other future trains. I only have two locomotives and 1 real but small yard. There will be only two towns on the line, and number of flag stops whose use may be seasonal at best. My longest train most likely will only be six cars long which in HOn30 means about three feet long, so a cassette makes a great deal of sense.

It eliminates having a lot of space tied up by a reversing loop and keeps the wiring simple. Very good for a person building his first layout. Once the first town is built operations will start. Every extension of track will increase operations, both as a place to off load freight to wagons but also for constructions trains. I expect the layout to build section by section.

[Marty on Vancouver Island]

Tony Koester once said something like this about staging: "Whatever number of staging tracks you think you need, double that number and add one."

The first "Maine Central's West End" layout had 6 staging tracks, varying in length from 7 to 10 feet. After I moved and commenced re-assembling the layout, I lengthened the staging tracks by about 28 inches and added three additional tracks. I have since added two more run-through tracks and three stub-end tracks. If I had applied Tony's formula from the start.....

Cheers, Marty on Vancouver Island

 

[mike_ruby]

Yes, I would fit as much storage space as possible, especially if you want to run trains, it makes train operation much easier. My layout is only 11' x 10', I managed to fit 3x 22' loops around the outside of the layout, which are now hidden by removable scenery. I also added another short loop at one end to take a small passenger train. The main loops usually contain either one long train or two shorter trains, giving a max of 7 trains. I position trains using CCTV cameras.

Here are some photos of the yard before being covered and from two of the cameras.







Mike Ruby

[CNE Runner]

Hey Chris,

I have a fold-up layout (11'x30") in my garage and have been perplexed about including some sort of staging yard. Being a fan of shunting puzzles, staging is necessary to add a bit of realism to operations. Location in a garage means that any type of staging must be removable. Your answer to the original post was an inspiration to me...a cart. So simple, yet it somehow eluded me. Not only did you give some assistance to the original poster...you aided my meager efforts.

Thanks!

Ray

[Autobus Prime]

Folks:

The thing I don't like about staging in the "whole op session" way is that all that costly equipment just sits there. I prefer to reuse trains. I.E. Train 40 WB comes out as Train 17 EB.

My V&E layout is very small, with low-key operations. I have a sneak-off track which is going to go to some sort of fiddle yard, to stage up a few through trains, but up to now I have been delivering my few overhead cars to the NYC and picking up strikingly similar cars from the B&O at the other end, which, as it happens, is the other end of the very same runaround track. It strains the brain less than one might think.

MR had a 4x8-with-shelf layout last year in which spacetime was warped in this manner. I found it inspiring. Single pieces of track had multiple uses, trains had multiple identities, depending where in the "script" the operator was. You can get a ton out of a small layout that way.

[jecorbett]

You might look into a hinged staging area that folds down when not in use. You would have to stock it when doing a session but that's not a big thing.

I seem to remember quite a while back, one of the magazines showed a layout with liftout staging tracks. These liftout sections had guard rails so after the train arrived on the staging track, it could be lifted out with the train in place and then stored on a shelf until it was time for it to make its return appearance. It also meant the entire train could be turned without a space eating loop and the capacity of such and arrangement would be limited only by shelf space.

[HEdward]

All the world's a stage! 

 Seriously, I'm planning on enough staging to hide all the trains when the layout is not in use. My local could then run around and return to the main in the opposite direction whence it came.  Staging opens the layout to being a part of the rest of the universe.  Best track planning idea since pencil and paper.  Even a small logging line needs a connection, unless your sawmill is shipping everything via those nasty truck things.

[Grand Skunk Conductor]

You might look into a hinged staging area that folds down when not in use. You would have to stock it when doing a session but that's not a big thing.

[BN Man]

 I have a 2x11 switching layout that has a two track yard "staging area" for setouts and pickups. Call it what you want, but I think it's a must for a good running operation.

[wedudler]

Here you're:

More at my staging site. 

Wolfgang 

[4merroad4man]

Without getting into a long convoluted answer, staging is dependent upon some specific items:

1. Overall layout size and number of trains to be handled per session

2.  Availability of a central yard or division point

3.  Prototype or freelance operation

4.  Number of available operators

5.  Method of operation

Overall layout size will to a certain extent, detrmine space available for staging and act as one of several factors influencing need.

If a central yard or double ended division point style yard is available in which to build and yard trains, a little imagination goes a long way to reducing or eliminating staging needs.

If your operation follows a specific prototype, then train frequency and other operational factors are pretty much locked in and will help dictate staging requirements.  Freelanced operations have much more flexibility in this regard.

The number of people available to man "must fill" jobs like a staging yardmaster will also determine whether staging is viable.  Also staging or fiddling helps determine trackage required.  I have built as many as 15 trains in a 4 hours session on a moderate sized layout with one and one only fiddle track at one end.  Those trains terminated in another fiddle track at the other end, where they were promptly removed and new trains built.

I teach timetable and train order operation to others, and it is essential for some layouts to have staging yards in this form of operation.  Other, less time consuming or complex methods of operation do not require the additional support structures, or as many support structures.  Hidden staging can buy time for a dispatcher to issue or annul train orders, or for trains to register by ticket, etc.  Where staging is combined with a separate visible yard in TT&TO operations, it tends to keep the visible yard fluid.

Staging should be a goal for all, but as pointed out earlier, it is not a necessity for some.  Generally from what I have experienced, in lieu of staging, a very vivid imagination is required.

[Capt. Grimek]

Byron and Jeff,
I see your points.

Mark's point about passenger car staging is something that's even harder to "imagine away" than hiding freight cars in on layout yards.

My question about referring to the size of our layouts pertained to things like considering whether or not we had room for a helix or a long enough grade to be able to make use of under the bench work staging yards, etc.- to accomplish what others are doing. I thought that it might serve to clarifiy things a bit..when considering the validity our choices on how to accomplish/make room for staging on smaller layouts, especially for newbie builders.

[markpierce]

Layout plans with staging yards are ubiquitous.  For instance, the latest (July) issue of Model Railroader contains two track plans with staging.  See pages 57 and 63.

Mark

[tomikawaTT]

Can someone post a layout design showing a staging yard? Thank you.

There are a couple on the preceding page of this thread, one with a photo.

If you are a Model Railroader subscriber, check the track plan data base in your newsletter.  I entered, "Staging yard," in the search block and got seven hits.

Staging, simply stated, is any place where a train can be held out of sight until it is needed for operation.  It can be as simple as the back half of the loop on a tabletop roundy-rounder, or as complex as the trackwork of New York's Grand Central Terminal at its zenith.  (Since the GCT throat and fan are all hidden under streets and buildings, they could be considered a prototype staging yards.  The main doesn't surface until it's several miles north.)

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with LOTS of staging)

[Butlerhawk]

Can someone post a layout design showing a staging yard? Thank you.

[markpierce]

Without trying to repeat previous advantages given for staging yards, I'll add my two cents to the collection plate.

Staging yards are very useful for passenger train operations, particularly for class-1 railroads.  Passenger trains didn't/don't start or originate in most yards, so the modeled yard probably shouldn't have passenger trains start or originate there either.  The staging can represent the distant origination and destination of those trains.  Even if your yard represents the start or end of the passenger-train route, unless you have a coach yard and other facilities modeled to support these activities (rare because most layouts provide room for just for freight yards), the staging can still represent the passenger yard. 

Mark