exPalaceDog wrote: To the Old Dog, logging lines have two great attributes, funky equipment and structures, and great scenery. If one is primary interested in the equipment, On30 might be the way to go. If one is interested mainly in the scenery, then a small scale would allow more material to be fit it.But the Old Dog must ask, in the unlikily event that the layout is ever "finished", how much operational interest will it have? Logging lines existed mainly to haul logs from the landings to the mill pond. That could get old after while.Have fun
To the Old Dog, logging lines have two great attributes, funky equipment and structures, and great scenery. If one is primary interested in the equipment, On30 might be the way to go. If one is interested mainly in the scenery, then a small scale would allow more material to be fit it.
But the Old Dog must ask, in the unlikily event that the layout is ever "finished", how much operational interest will it have? Logging lines existed mainly to haul logs from the landings to the mill pond. That could get old after while.
Have fun
Even in the mid-1960s there was an area where the available options for transportation were foot and a 762mm gauge logger - no spots flat and clear enough to land a helicopter. As a result, the Kiso Rintetsu (which had some really funky equipment, as well as about a gazillion standardized semi-disconnect log trucks) had to carry everything - including schoolkids!
Most non-timber loads were carried in 'gondolas' formed by laying planks on the bunks of a pair of disconnects (coupled with a bar between the link-and-pin couplers) and adding a few planks screwed to the vertical posts at the ends of the bunks. There was also a motley collection of tank cars for both water and petroleum products, as well as closed cars of several different designs. While most train movements were empties into the woods and loads out (to dry storage, not a pond,) there were also scheduled passenger and mixed goods trains.
The Kiso had a mainline engineered to Norfolk and Western standards - steel bridges, long tunnels through solid rock... OTOH, logging branches wandered off into the woods on temporary trestlework that appeared to have been assembled from slash not worth taking to the mill.
(My own version, in HOjn762, goes by the name Kashimoto Forest Railway)
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Dog, you are not thinking it through. In a major logging operation there are all kinds of uses for trains. There is the obvious logs in/empties out/lumber out. But the Union Lumber Company also ran a full service railroad with passenger and freight service. The lumber yard alone will need supples to service the massive machinery. Click on this photo and look around. Just in the lumber yard count the rails. Look at the trestle in the background.
And that is just the saw mill, the log camps needs supples brought in daily. Union lumber ran 3-5 camps at any given time. Each camp ran multiple harvesting operations. A lumber yard like Union Lumber supplies the country and the Orient.
Check out the photo of this logging supply yard.
Equipment, men, and supples need to be shuttled in daily to the camps.
This is in addition to all the supplies needed by the town.
Move out the railroad to the interchange with the Northwestern Pacific at Willits. From there all traffic goes to the Ukiah yard where all traffic must go through power changes. From there it goes to the Ferry at San Raphael & across the bay to San Francisco.
Come over, I'll keep you busy.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
ereimer wrote: SpaceMouse wrote:The figures are bigger and easer to get paint on, but because they are bigger look fake with a monotone paint job. I figure to make them look good, a lot more attention will have to be put on layout lighting/highlights and shadow. That means more time in vested in figure. If you put in the time, the figures will look like dolls plopped in place. look online for Warhammer painting sites , there's tons of them . they do a much better job of painting figures than almost any model railroader i've seen . other military modeling sites will have similar info . BTW , don't get seduced by the cool looking models while you're there , they'll eat away at the time and money you need to dedicate to your new basement empire ernie
SpaceMouse wrote:The figures are bigger and easer to get paint on, but because they are bigger look fake with a monotone paint job. I figure to make them look good, a lot more attention will have to be put on layout lighting/highlights and shadow. That means more time in vested in figure. If you put in the time, the figures will look like dolls plopped in place.
The figures are bigger and easer to get paint on, but because they are bigger look fake with a monotone paint job. I figure to make them look good, a lot more attention will have to be put on layout lighting/highlights and shadow. That means more time in vested in figure. If you put in the time, the figures will look like dolls plopped in place.
look online for Warhammer painting sites , there's tons of them . they do a much better job of painting figures than almost any model railroader i've seen . other military modeling sites will have similar info . BTW , don't get seduced by the cool looking models while you're there , they'll eat away at the time and money you need to dedicate to your new basement empire
ernie
This is a good suggestion. I have painted well over 2000 figures. When you paint for miniature war games you paint the sparkle in the eyes. Then you highlight that. A Ho scale wrist watch would have probably 5 to 10 layers of paint if it was done by a good miniature painter just to accent the highlights and shades. That would give you guys an idea.
I always think that HO scale figures looks really really poor. They need a lot more detail and it isn't hard to do.
Magnus
Elmer,
I've never seen that book, but I have managed to acquire maybe a dozen others including 5 just on the CW and a monster one on the NWP.
I'm pretty set on HO and the California Western/Northwestern Pacific in 1917. I really researched it a couple years ago, but gave up when I figured I'd never have the space/time/money synergy.
exPalaceDog wrote: Chip, have you considered something closer to home, likehttp://gustafson.home.westpa.net/wd1.htmAlso, have you considered using an "incline"http://www.anamericanadventure.com/history.htmlAlso, consider downlaoding this book from googlehttp://books.google.com/books?id=U6UJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA477&dq=logging+inauthor:Bryant&lr=&as_brr=0Have fun
Chip, have you considered something closer to home, like
http://gustafson.home.westpa.net/wd1.htm
Also, have you considered using an "incline"
http://www.anamericanadventure.com/history.html
Also, consider downlaoding this book from google
http://books.google.com/books?id=U6UJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA477&dq=logging+inauthor:Bryant&lr=&as_brr=0
Dog,
I'd have though you of all PEEple would have been a expert on trees.
Because last time I checked if you want to model redwoods, you have to model California.
When I started modeling 3 years ago, I knew that I wanted to model BIG trees and small trains--something about the contrast. (I also thought it would be really coll to run an Acela through there, but I gave up on that one pretty quickly--even as naive as I was about trains I knew that one wouldn't fly.
I was drawn to the CW because my mom used to talk about the Skunk. So I looked it up and got interesting. I've acquired several books on the CW,
Through it all, I never seemed to make the connection that I was born in Fort Bragg, CA and that the CW is based out of Fort Bragg. In fact, at that time my father worked at the Union Lumber Sawmill. He quit soon after when he saw I guy cut in half when a cable snapped. He figured, the mill was a dangerous place.
I moved when I was 5.
So I guess you first have to determine where "home" is.
On30 is fine for narow gauge. If you want to do standard gauge, then go with S. It's about the same size as On30 and has the same size and visual advantage.
Enjoy
Paul
Tom,
I spent K-6 in Marysville. Man, someone should model Sutter Buttes.
Chip--
Okay, Coast Range it is. Big trees at lower elevations. Sierra Nevada is kind of out unless you're in the north, building east from Chico or somewhere. Otherwise, you're looking at BIG grades (3-4%) to get to that nice, high timber, unless of course, you're taking off from, say, SP's Donner Pass route at about 4000'. High Sierra=high elevation timber.
Now if you want, you can crawl up the Yuba River Canyon from Marysville, but you're not going to run into any really USABLE timber until you hit Downieville if you keep to the canyon floor. Unless, of course, you're really INTO Manzanita and Scrub Pine, LOL! However, just out of Downieville to the west, there's a HUGE stand of high-country pine and fir that was logged over by Cal-Ida (by truck, natch), but it's about two thousand feet higher than the Yuba watershed, and you'll need a lot of switchbacks and trestles to get out of the canyon to reach it (am I getting you interested, LOL?).
I'd let you use my Yuba River Sub, for carry-out either west to Nevada City or east to Sierraville, but unfortunately, I'm on the high ridge across the canyon, about 900 feet above Downieville at that point. Unless of course you want to cross the North Yuba and build a whole series of 4% switchbacks and trestles to meet me WAY above Bullard's Bar, LOL!
Anyway, stick with HO. You'll be able to do wonders in that space.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Dave Vollmer wrote: Chip,I don't know how the wheelbase works out, but I'm guessing the Bachmann 2-6-0 would give you a start. Side tanks aren't too difficult to build.If I can kitbash steam in N, being the fumbly moron I am, I know you can do it in O.
Chip,
I don't know how the wheelbase works out, but I'm guessing the Bachmann 2-6-0 would give you a start. Side tanks aren't too difficult to build.
If I can kitbash steam in N, being the fumbly moron I am, I know you can do it in O.
The California Western is standard guage--I'm pretty set on HO. I have a Mantua Baldwin 2-6-2 that has a blown motor, but looks prety close. Just add the side tanks and oil tank. (without the tender it is shorter than your M1.) The MDC 0-6-0 is also a Baldwin. I actually have a complete roster for both the CW and the NWP and photos of most of them active in 1917. #16 here, I have probably 4 good shots. There looks like there is something going on on the roof of the cab, but I can't make it out from any of the pictures.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
jamnest wrote: I am in the process of building my second basement layout using domino benchwork. Both layouts (HO scale) were around the walls with a long penensula down the center of the room. My dominoes sit 48" off of the floor so there is plenty of under the layout storage. My standard size for dominos is 72'' x 18" although the width and length varries depending upon the area being modeled. Yards are wider and mainline is narrower.The benefit of dominos is that you can construct a few dominos and start operating; expanding the layout and operations by ading additional dominos. I believe it is a manageable way to construct a large basement layout.
I am in the process of building my second basement layout using domino benchwork. Both layouts (HO scale) were around the walls with a long penensula down the center of the room. My dominoes sit 48" off of the floor so there is plenty of under the layout storage. My standard size for dominos is 72'' x 18" although the width and length varries depending upon the area being modeled. Yards are wider and mainline is narrower.
The benefit of dominos is that you can construct a few dominos and start operating; expanding the layout and operations by ading additional dominos. I believe it is a manageable way to construct a large basement layout.
I know the benefits of dominoes. I guess I'm a hack when it comes to benchwork. I have no respect for it. I just make it strong and straight and fast and worry about salvaging it later.
As for running while working. I should have my switching layout in full swing by the time I start the benchwork. If I tear it down, it will only be after the all the track work of the first phase is done.
Dave Vollmer wrote: Wow, Chip... Waht a big bucket o'possibilities!On30 is awesome. Many's the time I've had to fight the urge to buy some at the LHS.One minor fly in the ointment, though... I know you're getting into ops. The narrow gauge railroads were not usually known for busy and diversified operations. They were usually one or the other. Mulyiple mine turns in a day is busy, yes, like the EBT... but not overly exciting. OTOH, you can do fun mixed freights like the RGS... ...but twice weekly, with only the Galloping Goose in between.
Wow, Chip... Waht a big bucket o'possibilities!
On30 is awesome. Many's the time I've had to fight the urge to buy some at the LHS.
One minor fly in the ointment, though... I know you're getting into ops. The narrow gauge railroads were not usually known for busy and diversified operations. They were usually one or the other. Mulyiple mine turns in a day is busy, yes, like the EBT... but not overly exciting. OTOH, you can do fun mixed freights like the RGS... ...but twice weekly, with only the Galloping Goose in between.
Actually the Skunk came about 10 years after my layout.
The Union Lumber Company that runs California Western was a little fly-by night operation. Here's a shot of it in 1911. Excuse the size, but as you'll see it can't be helped.
Two ways around that and to keep your On30 hoppin':If you do Colorado/New Mexico, model the stock rush. Autumn scenery plus pressing every stock car and loco into service, plus the usual mine runs.Or, model any narrow gauge railroad prior to the Depression when they were still pretty much as busy as their broader gauge counterparts.Best of luck![drool]Jeez, if I had that space in N scale I could do a full-scale (no compression) Horseshoe Curve.[/drool]
If you do Colorado/New Mexico, model the stock rush. Autumn scenery plus pressing every stock car and loco into service, plus the usual mine runs.
Or, model any narrow gauge railroad prior to the Depression when they were still pretty much as busy as their broader gauge counterparts.
Best of luck!
[drool]Jeez, if I had that space in N scale I could do a full-scale (no compression) Horseshoe Curve.[/drool]
Actually, I find that I'm in a situation like you are with the PRR. No one makes one of these and these are the workhorses of the CW in 1917.
On the bight side, I should be able to get a decoder in the side tank and a speaker in the oil tank.
DavidGSmith wrote: That 9/10s thing does not apply to wives. Build ASAP. On30 is great. You have to get a whole new eye for proportion, after 40 years in Ho it was a challenge. Have fun .Dave
That 9/10s thing does not apply to wives. Build ASAP. On30 is great. You have to get a whole new eye for proportion, after 40 years in Ho it was a challenge. Have fun .
Dave
I'm aware of the illusion I hold. More than once when my wife has said yes, that meant to her that she was considering it.
I wouldn't be surprised. Guys here usually spend their heavy paint time on the engines.
stebbycentral wrote: First, congratulations. You now have more RR space than encompasses my entire basement.I hope the basics are already taken care of; finished walls, ceiling, and floor.
First, congratulations. You now have more RR space than encompasses my entire basement.
I hope the basics are already taken care of; finished walls, ceiling, and floor.
There's the rub. I've already done all the wiring: Phones. cat5, cable, but I have some mechanical work to do. The dryer vent runs around the walls and into the crawl space under the master bedroom. I'm not much with sheet metal. But once that is done, I just have run the sheet rock on the ceiling and walls, which I have the skills for, but really don't wanna. After 20 years in construction I'm up to here with it.
I am curious as to what the storage requirements for the paintings are in terms of temprature, humidity, etc. Is the garage going to be adequate? If so, have you considered an outbuilding? Or it is more the case that if you suggested one you would end up using it as your personal bedroom?
wm3798 wrote: My suggestion of N was purely in jest... unless you were going to pursue the Indiana branch. Then it would be ideal. But a western logger demands detail, and I know you are a detail horse, so HO is your ideal medium. Especially in standard gauge. There are plenty of climaxes, heisslers and shays out there do what you want to do, and the Bachmann 4-4-0 and 10 wheelers can provide some extra chutspah when you need it. Can't wait to see where you take this.Lee
My suggestion of N was purely in jest... unless you were going to pursue the Indiana branch. Then it would be ideal.
But a western logger demands detail, and I know you are a detail horse, so HO is your ideal medium. Especially in standard gauge. There are plenty of climaxes, heisslers and shays out there do what you want to do, and the Bachmann 4-4-0 and 10 wheelers can provide some extra chutspah when you need it.
Can't wait to see where you take this.
Lee
Thanks,
I was just joking, too.
AS for the PRR Indiana Branch....I went to my local NMRA meet t day, and I swear the universe is conspiring against me. I met the local PRR resident historian and I ran into a guy who took pictures of the area and are used as a primary source for a two volume book on the Pittsburgh, Buffalo and Rochester (which was bought up by the B & O) anyway, he has photos of the building I was missing source data on.
I also came home with 4 pieces of HO rolling stock for the PRR including a Funaro and Camerlengo PRR covered hopper in my period and a Bowser N5 caboose that I won as a door prize. I took it as a sign that I need to work around my perceived limitation and put off tearing it down for a while.
I aslo won a Rix N-scale 150' overpass, but I'll be dinged if I can find a figure a place for it on the N-scale office layout.
jackn2mpu wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: The figures are bigger and easer to get paint on, but because they are bigger look fake with a monotone paint job. I figure to make them look good, a lot more attention will have to be put on layout lighting/highlights and shadow. That means more time in vested in figure. If you put in the time, the figures will look like dolls plopped in place.I think you said your wife paints - get her to do the figures. That's assuming you haven't asked her before to do it. That way, if she ever complains about what you have in the basement, you can always say: "but you helped me with it!"
SpaceMouse wrote: The figures are bigger and easer to get paint on, but because they are bigger look fake with a monotone paint job. I figure to make them look good, a lot more attention will have to be put on layout lighting/highlights and shadow. That means more time in vested in figure. If you put in the time, the figures will look like dolls plopped in place.
I'm pretty sure I can handle the figures. I just think will just take more work.
SpaceMouse wrote: But the main thing is that three of you have brought up On30. I had not considered it, but I had/have some my pre-concevied notions about N-scale, so I should listen. My preconceived notions. On30 layouts tend to be mostly fantasy.O scale figures look horible to me--don't know why. I can probably fix them with work.They have more of the smaller steam I like to model.Real Downside. The logging roads--California Redwoods--tended towards standard guage. My favorite and the one I have researched the most, the California Western was Standard Guage. There were exceptions I admit, but mostly below the redwoods and up near Eureka. Where am I wrong?
But the main thing is that three of you have brought up On30. I had not considered it, but I had/have some my pre-concevied notions about N-scale, so I should listen.
My preconceived notions.
On30 layouts tend to be mostly fantasy.O scale figures look horible to me--don't know why. I can probably fix them with work.They have more of the smaller steam I like to model.
Real Downside. The logging roads--California Redwoods--tended towards standard guage. My favorite and the one I have researched the most, the California Western was Standard Guage. There were exceptions I admit, but mostly below the redwoods and up near Eureka.
Where am I wrong?
On30 would be my choice too, if I were in your shoes. You get good models that have the same weight as HO for good electrical pickup. The current requirements are about the same as HO, so you can use commonly available sound decoders and DCC systems. Detailing scenes should be a little easier because of size, as well as building structures. And as you get older and your eyesight is not as sharp, you don't have to change scales.
The Michigan-California Lumber Company logging road was narrow gauge. There is a lot of information about it around so you shouldn't have much trouble with research. It also interchanged with a standard gauge line if you are so inclined.
Edit:
I have a book called "Pino Grande" that is excellent that I bought for my research of logging roads. I looked it up on the web for a description.
Description: Logging Railroad of the Michigan-California Lumber Co.First printed in 1966, this fourth printing is revised and enlarged.Close to Califrnia's motherlode country, the Michigan-California Lumber Company operated for many years with an interesting combination of narrow and standard gauge railroading. There was even an ingenious cable "bridge" over a deep gorge which carried complete railroad cars of logs. The machinery of the company included steam donkeys, track autos, steam tractors and, of necessity, a snowplow.Contents: 1. Dry Run, 1889-1899; 2. On the Auction Block Again, 1900-1907; 3. White Pine and Red Ink, 1911-1907; 4. Sugar Pine Bonanza, 1918-1951; 5. Steam in the Forest; 6. By Cable Over the River; 7. Camino, Placerville & Lake Tahoe Railroad; 8. Pino Grande Album, Part 1, 1890-1918; 9. Pino Grande Album, Part 2, 1918-1949; 10. The New Album; 11. Pino Grande Album, Part 3, The Remains; Appendix A, Logging Camps; Appendix B, Locomotives and Equipment; Index.R/Robb Ltd., soft cover, 176 pages, black and white photos and color map insert. Weight:2. Bookseller Inventory # RB112
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
Two ways around that and to keep your On30 hoppin':
pcarrell wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: lvanhen wrote: Good luck - now you have to redesign everything all over - or have you been planning this takeover for a while!!Today the basement, tomorrow the world.Wrong mouse! Thats Brain, from Pinky & the Brain! So who's Pinky? (Careful how you answer this one! It's a loaded question!)
SpaceMouse wrote: lvanhen wrote: Good luck - now you have to redesign everything all over - or have you been planning this takeover for a while!!Today the basement, tomorrow the world.
lvanhen wrote: Good luck - now you have to redesign everything all over - or have you been planning this takeover for a while!!
Today the basement, tomorrow the world.
Wrong mouse! Thats Brain, from Pinky & the Brain! So who's Pinky? (Careful how you answer this one! It's a loaded question!)
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
de N2MPU Jack
Proud NRA Life Member and supporter of the 2nd. Amendment
God, guns, and rock and roll!
Modeling the NYC/NYNH&H in HO and CPRail/D&H in N
TA462 wrote:I always thought the garage and the basement were the man's domain minus the washer and dryer. My wife stays out of my basement, unless she is doing laundry and stays out of my garage unless she "borrows" a ratchet wrench to use as a hammer.