My stock of Tenax ran out about two years ago.
I've experimented with lots of substitutes, including several home-brew formulas. I finally settled on Tamiya extra thin styrene cement.
https://www.tamiya.com/english/products/87182/index.htm
I seem to recaall getting my recent supply from Horizon Hobby but there are others. Horizon, at the time had the lowest overall cost. That mey no longer be true.
Cheers, Ed
sandjamsandjam wrote the following post an hour ago: Overmod There is still 'methylene chloride'Ummm… No, there is not.
Overmod There is still 'methylene chloride'
I see I did not strongly enough disparage the use of CH2Cl2 in typical railroad modeling whether there is adequate ventilation or not -- and this with my liking its technical performance with styrene. On the other hand, it's pretty clear that applying solvent cement through a 25ga needle into a small fusion region is orders of magnitude less dangerous to health than splashing high-VOC remover lavishly all over a chair or whatever, which is part of why those kind of stripper formulations were rightly banned.
You can still happily buy methylene chloride based solvent cement from a number of sources (for example suppliers to the acrylic fabrication industry. These contain some interesting additional ingredients, including methacrylate monomer and trichloroethylene ... the "low-VOC" formula substituting methyl acetate for the latter but still (of course!) not satisfying rule 1168.
Likewise I believe MEK is available as a component of primer for plastic plumbing ... once you know the secret. The current major-name commercial formulae use substantial acetone and an awful chemical called tetrahydrofuran, so the dichloromethane is only 15-30% of the mix.
OvermodThere is still 'methylene chloride'
MEK and acetone act similarly; MEK is slower to evaporate so has a longer effective acting time to 'soften' the polymer for adhesion. Here is a guide that tells you a little about how solvent adhesion works for different plastics:
http://depts.washington.edu/open3dp/2015/01/polymer-guide-if-you-seek-solvation/
MEK was actually DElisted as a hazard by the EPA in 2005; the current ban in California is based on air quality concerns over "VOCs". (see for example 'rule 1168')
When I was a kid MEK was the active ingredient in nail polish remover... now replaced by faster-acting-as-remover-solvent acetone.
There is still 'methylene chloride' (which is just dichloromethane, perhaps tellingly in between R40 and chloroform on the way to carbon tet) but I think its hazards for this purpose -- you pretty obviously aren't going to be shimming switches outdoors or using some huge fan for air exchange as you work -- are much too great.
I use MEK on styrene when scratch building. Is it dangerous, I suppose so but that is why I am using it in a ventilated space as recommended. It is also why I purchased my first N95 face mask. I also purchase it at the local Sherwin Williams store.
Brian, wouldn't it have been easier to just ask your question instead of reopening a 12 year old thread? I forgot all about the nasty feelings from this until after I started reading the original OP statement.
TomO
When the formula for lacquer thinner was bastardise to make it "safer", it lost it's properties for use as an adhesive for styrene plastic.Somewhat reluctantly, I decided to try MEK, and found it at a Sherwin-Williams distributor - not one of their paint stores, but what I believe is a wholesale outlet. Since I was buying only a gallon, I didn't qualify for wholesale price.
It works almost as well as the original lacquer thinner, it's main drawback being its rapid rate of evapouration. This is generally not an issue when cementing smaller items such as freight car kits or details, but it's a definite nuisance when trying to join large sheets (over a foot long or more the a square foot, as might be needed when reinforcing flimsy structures or cementing printed paper to sheet styrene). Even using a 2" brush, the MEK can be at least partially dry before the entire area is covered.
Wayne
Micro Mark Same Stuff is the same formula as Tenax. Plastruct Bondene also works.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I was reading back over a number of subject threads on this solvent bonding subject, and noting this one in this forum,..
Lacquer thinner, while HOT enough to ruin a paint job, isn't hot enough to join plastic quickly enough like tenax or ProWeld.
I was a fan of Tenax 7 a number of years ago, and I was (am) intriged with finding real MEK to do do some gluing of very slender plastic shims into the guard rails of Peco turnouts.
But I can't find real MEK, only this sustitute product. I'm looking for something very liquidy that will wink down between the shim and the molded guard rail, and will quickly set up so I am not sitting there holding it for long periods of time.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
Hostility? Did you read not only the original post, but the responses to it? There were many who noted that both Tenax 7R (methylene chloride), MEK and lacquer thinner are dangerous chemicals that needed to be handled properly.
Gerome wrote: BTW y'all know not to get any of these things on your skin or breath them in. Bad news. Because Tenax 7 is also carcinogenic, clear, odourless, and comes in a cute little bottle it is not good to have around small children. I keep mine way up high.
BTW y'all know not to get any of these things on your skin or breath them in. Bad news. Because Tenax 7 is also carcinogenic, clear, odourless, and comes in a cute little bottle it is not good to have around small children. I keep mine way up high.
richg1998 wrote: I have been using MEK for nearly twenty years years. Since I use to work in industry using this stuff, I use proper ventilation.
I have been using MEK for nearly twenty years years. Since I use to work in industry using this stuff, I use proper ventilation.
The OP wanted to know what could be used as a substitute for Tenax 7R. Hazard wise, there is not much difference between Tenax and MEK.
LD357 wrote:If someone wants to use MEK then thats their choice, but when posting a reply to a question asked by a novice, merely saying ''MEK is cheap, buy it'' isn't correct, there also needs to be some info on the dangers and risks involved with such a dangerous chemical.
If someone wants to use MEK then thats their choice, but when posting a reply to a question asked by a novice, merely saying ''MEK is cheap, buy it'' isn't correct, there also needs to be some info on the dangers and risks involved with such a dangerous chemical.
Point taken: it's easy for those of us familiar with MSDS to overlook that many novices are unfamiliar with this information, and for us to assume that safety precautions will be used. Many less experienced modellers may take recommendations given in this and similar forums without further thought, but it's encumbent upon each modeller, both novice and pro, to be familiar with the products they use and the safe handling of such products, whether chemicals, tools, electricity, or other materials.
Wayne,
I know that mineral spirits isn't distilled water, and I use it like it's supposed to be used, in small quantities, and when I transfer it from gallon to 4 oz. bottle, I do it outside, I.E. proper handling, but MEK IS NOT mineral spirits, it is a dangerous chemical, the MSDS is very detailed about it's effects on a human, that's why I don't use it, and since JK feels the need to preach it's usage as a hobby glue, I feel the need to inform the novices..[who are the ones asking the question about what is a good alternative to or a good glue to use for 'X']...that MEK is not the same as Tenax or Ambroid and it is classified as a dangerous chemical.
The hostility JK exhibits when a different opinion is posted is quite evident here and on the other thread about glues, the ramblings about prepainted this and plywood that are obscure and have no bearing on anything.
LD357 wrote: jktrains wrote: LD357Yeah, yeah , yeah. We've heard you before go on about how 'dangerous' a chemical MEK is. I'veread the MSDS on it. The links to them have been posted before in other threads. Find and read the MSDS on ProWeld and Plastruct liquid cement. They're almost identical. As an earlier post said, MEK, lacquer thinner, acetone etc. are all dangerous chemicals if handled improperly. There are many other items used in this hobby, and in every day life, that are dangerous if used in properly - lead weights, isopropyl alcohol, most paints, CA, plaster dust, cleaning solutions, windex, the list goes on and on. Proper handling has always been the key. Since I prefer not to live in a bubble, I'll continue to use them responsibly. You on the other hand can go about modeling in a bubble and avoid any item that might pose a hazard. Keep to snap together models, prepainted rolling stock and plywood table tops, just be careful when you cut things with a knife or saw because they can dangerous too. OK JK whats up with all the hostility? Do differing opinions threaten you that much??? We all get that you love MEK, you use gallons of it all the time and have no ill effects, BUT, there are those of us who choose not to use dangerous chemicals like MEK, you praise the fact that it's cheaper than anything else and you can buy it in quarts and gallons....do you not see the potential hazards in mass quanities of dangerous chemicals sitting in your house? Each time you open that quart of MEK you are exposing yourself to fumes and each time you transfer it into smaller containers..[and I hope you DO transfer it and not sit there huffing it in from a quart container while gluing ]....you are exposing yourself to absorbing it through the skin. If these are acceptable risks to you then thats fine, it's your health, I choose not to use it or be around it. As for the ''bubble'' comments.....WHATEVER! I haven't put a snap-tite kit together since I was 8 and I have no idea what unpainted vs. prepainted rolling stock has to do with anything since I use paint thinner [mineral spirits] to thin my paints [do you use your fabulous MEK as a thinner too?] and the plywood table reference makes no sense at all....perhaps all that MEK usage has affected you brain afterall.
jktrains wrote: LD357Yeah, yeah , yeah. We've heard you before go on about how 'dangerous' a chemical MEK is. I'veread the MSDS on it. The links to them have been posted before in other threads. Find and read the MSDS on ProWeld and Plastruct liquid cement. They're almost identical. As an earlier post said, MEK, lacquer thinner, acetone etc. are all dangerous chemicals if handled improperly. There are many other items used in this hobby, and in every day life, that are dangerous if used in properly - lead weights, isopropyl alcohol, most paints, CA, plaster dust, cleaning solutions, windex, the list goes on and on. Proper handling has always been the key. Since I prefer not to live in a bubble, I'll continue to use them responsibly. You on the other hand can go about modeling in a bubble and avoid any item that might pose a hazard. Keep to snap together models, prepainted rolling stock and plywood table tops, just be careful when you cut things with a knife or saw because they can dangerous too.
LD357
Yeah, yeah , yeah. We've heard you before go on about how 'dangerous' a chemical MEK is. I'veread the MSDS on it. The links to them have been posted before in other threads. Find and read the MSDS on ProWeld and Plastruct liquid cement. They're almost identical. As an earlier post said, MEK, lacquer thinner, acetone etc. are all dangerous chemicals if handled improperly. There are many other items used in this hobby, and in every day life, that are dangerous if used in properly - lead weights, isopropyl alcohol, most paints, CA, plaster dust, cleaning solutions, windex, the list goes on and on. Proper handling has always been the key. Since I prefer not to live in a bubble, I'll continue to use them responsibly. You on the other hand can go about modeling in a bubble and avoid any item that might pose a hazard. Keep to snap together models, prepainted rolling stock and plywood table tops, just be careful when you cut things with a knife or saw because they can dangerous too.
OK JK whats up with all the hostility? Do differing opinions threaten you that much???
We all get that you love MEK, you use gallons of it all the time and have no ill effects, BUT, there are those of us who choose not to use dangerous chemicals like MEK, you praise the fact that it's cheaper than anything else and you can buy it in quarts and gallons....do you not see the potential hazards in mass quanities of dangerous chemicals sitting in your house? Each time you open that quart of MEK you are exposing yourself to fumes and each time you transfer it into smaller containers..[and I hope you DO transfer it and not sit there huffing it in from a quart container while gluing ]....you are exposing yourself to absorbing it through the skin. If these are acceptable risks to you then thats fine, it's your health, I choose not to use it or be around it.
As for the ''bubble'' comments.....WHATEVER! I haven't put a snap-tite kit together since I was 8 and I have no idea what unpainted vs. prepainted rolling stock has to do with anything since I use paint thinner [mineral spirits] to thin my paints [do you use your fabulous MEK as a thinner too?] and the plywood table reference makes no sense at all....perhaps all that MEK usage has affected you brain afterall.
Hmm. I sense even more hostility, which I don't think was jktrains' intention. The point is that many of the products which we use (all of them if you live in California) can be harmful to our health or the environment. It's up to each individual to determine what risks they're willing to take, what safety precautions to use, and to accept responsibility for their decisions in this matter. While I'm a big proponent of the proper use of lacquer thinner, my mention of it was merely intended as a "this is what I do", not as a "this is what you should do".
As for the reference to plywood, the fumes released from the glue holding the plies together when cutting plywood can be unpleasant (and possibly harmful) to some. And don't delude yourself that the use of mineral spirits is risk free, either.
Ambroid Proweld or Plastruct liquid cement is a good alternative.
MEK is a highly dangerous chemical and the MSDS sheet on it reads like a horror story, lung damage, nervous system damage, highly flammable and a host of other bad stuff. The fact that you can get it in quart and gallon sizes only increases your exposure, I stay well away from MEK. I wouldn't even keep stuff like that outside in a shed, much less in my hobby room.
Some of this stuff makes me reluctant to give up my trusty Safeweld from Ambroid and Model Master's Needle applicator glue. And I used to deal with chemicals for freighting.
I have visions of you fellas welding massive peices of plastic sheeting with thunder, sparks and lightning issuing forth from your workbenches.
Ambroid ProWeld works well.
You can try Plastic Wood thinner.
MEK is good too.
Plastruct also makes a good cement.
Tamiya plastic cement works too.
hth
-G-
jackn2mpu wrote: Arjay1969 wrote:Ditto what jk said. MEK is the active ingredient in Tenax, and it costs about $8 for a quart can, which will last practically forever for modeling purposes. Is this the old or new Tenax formulation? A couple of moths ago I stopped in a local shop to pick up a few things and he was out of Tenax. Something was mentioned that the formulation was going to be changed because the original had some nasty chemicals in it.
Arjay1969 wrote:Ditto what jk said. MEK is the active ingredient in Tenax, and it costs about $8 for a quart can, which will last practically forever for modeling purposes.
Most likely the old one...I do recall seeing MEK listed as being in Tenax before, but either way...bad stuff if you're not careful with it. But so are a lot of the things we use, even just in daily life.
Robert Beaty
The Laughing Hippie
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Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the
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Gerome,
I stand corrected. You're right, Tenax is Methylene Chloride, not MEK. But both are bad juju if you get them on your skin. Then again, just about anything we use is bad for you in some way or another.
de N2MPU Jack
Proud NRA Life Member and supporter of the 2nd. Amendment
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Modeling the NYC/NYNH&H in HO and CPRail/D&H in N
I have found that MEK dries rather quickly compared to liquid plastic glues sold at the LHS. One person in a Yahoo RR group I belong too uses a 1:1 mixture of MEK and lacquer thinner for a little longer drying time.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Now I am interested in this topic as I live far from a LHS and have to have glues and plastic welders shipped up to me.
I have some Tenax 7 and some lacquer thinner. I have never tried the latter as a plastic welder, but the product safety sheets seem to list it as having up to 13% methyl ethyl ketone.
On the other hand the a product safety data sheet for Tenax 7 lists it as being 98 to 100% methylene chloride. http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/msds/docs/wcd00025/wcd02597.htm
I don't think this is the same as MEK but I am no chemist.
For one thing, Tenax 7 does not have any odour and is low in flammability (according to a product site). Although the odour from lacquer thinner may be from the other ingredients.
Anyhow I am going to try both the laquer thinner and the MEK as a plastic welder now.
Does the MEK have an odour? Can one buy MEK in pure form or is it always mixed in as a percentage of some other product like lacuer thinner or surface preparation?
I use lacquer thinner as a cement for styrene, and it's also useful as a thinner for airbrushing many brands of paint, including Floquil, Testors, SMP Accupaint, Pactra, Scalecoat, and Humbrol. It's also good for thinning contact cement. Under twenty bucks for a gallon, and available in smaller cans if you don't need the gallon.
Methyl Ethyl Ketone - MEK. Get at your local hardware store. Much cheaper and just as good.