That's the way I see it, too. So, what else is cookin'....?
-Crandell
Paul,
I used to be on Railroadline forums but that kind of fizzled out and most of the content became of little interest to me so I faded away from there, and hardly ever check. I was a moderator on The Railroadforums that was an outgrowth when RRL forums had a major issue some years back. I asked to be removed when I tired of the ever present antics of Spikre. I guess the admins loved him and were all to happy to comply with my request and remove me. I contributed a fair amount of real content over there but I guess they didn't recognize a good thing and kept the encyclopedia/RRclown instead.
Yeah, winter weather is a sore subject with me at this time of year, I'm tired of the cold and now and its lingering longer than I'd like. I tend to get alot more migraines in Jan-March also so I"m suffering one of those today.
Anyway, sounds like this topic is winding down and has been "defined" and put a stamp on it! :D
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761,Sometimes we get ocean effect snow, but that's rare. It has to be a winter nor'easter for that, and they are not common (thank goodness!). Eastern Mass. can get bombarded with snow, and it can get bitter cold...but like most things about the weather in New England, if you don't like it, wait 5 minutes and it'll change (thank you, Mark Twain).
BTW, I don't mean anything by saying "noob" (which is, of course, short for newbie or new member). Highhood63 is obviously a newbie poster here (he just registered on March 10th), and his behavior reminds me of newbie behavior I have seen in the past. BTW, saying stuff online that you would never say in person is called "keyboard courage". We had a "blow up" in our club when we started an e-mail list. A couple of the older members, who had never been on a disussion forum before, started causing a stink. They were saying things to folks that they never would say in person at the club. When confronted in person, they would just smirk and say, "Oh, you thought I was serious?" Like it was all just some big joke to get folks all running around, ticked off at each other. It only calmed down when those guys removed themselves from the e-mail list. Some folks are just not cut out for internet disucussions.
I've never said I was a diplomat or PR person. Not to tempt fate here or anything, but I've been online for 10 years, with the last 5 years both here, on the Atlas Forum, on the New Haven Forum, on the ol' Railroad-Line forums, and on Railroad.net, and I've never been banned, not even for so much as a day. I've had the occasional post deleted, or I've posted in a thread that's later locked, but I've managed to avoid crossing that line. I won't deny that sometimes I let my sarcastic self get the better of me, but usually I'm able to catch myself before posting something truly vicious. Some of my best posts are the ones I've never posted. I save them on my hard drive...it makes for fun reading a year or two later.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Paul3 wrote: riogrande5761,Actually, Boston's weather isn't that much like central NY as we don't get the kind of snow or cold air that they do. I live South of town, so we usually get even less than those poor souls on the Worcester plateau (central Mass.). The "warm" jet stream protects us from the worst of winter's wrath. For example, we haven't had much snow accumulation at all this winter. A lot of rain (Feb. was wettest ever), but the snow's been so-so (we'll take that, thank you!). ...]
riogrande5761,Actually, Boston's weather isn't that much like central NY as we don't get the kind of snow or cold air that they do. I live South of town, so we usually get even less than those poor souls on the Worcester plateau (central Mass.). The "warm" jet stream protects us from the worst of winter's wrath. For example, we haven't had much snow accumulation at all this winter. A lot of rain (Feb. was wettest ever), but the snow's been so-so (we'll take that, thank you!). ...]
Yes, good point about the coasts getting moderated climates. You are probabaly a little closer to San Francisco weather then central NY. I've noticed that jet stream dips down and if you are inland an north of the jet stream, you get nasty winter weather, plus we get lake effect snow. Its an evil word. Having grown up in the Sacramento area, that to me is more ideal then even San Francisco weathern and I'd imagine Boston is worse? Still, no thanks! They talk funny there too! :P
highhood63,What did you expect? When you come out, guns-a-blazin', don't be surprised when you encounter return fire. Starting a new thread the same day you register that is argumentative and attacks one of the biggest and most popular manufacturers in the hobby is just asking for it. When you replyed to those that disagreed, you called them the "Athearn Glee Club", well, that is just begging for it. Then when brought up short, you stoop to personal attacks with coarse language, that just demands it. I cut my internet teeth on the unmoderated rec.models.railroad newsgroup 10 years ago, and your behavior is not unlike many of those that burned bright and quick and disappeared into the ether a short time later.
And in all fairness Selector (moderator), the original poster did come in here making some rather bold statements/complaints about Athearn which couldn't help but elicit a response. Whether or not he is a forum noob, is hard to say. I've been on forums since 1994 and it did take me a while to learn a bit of ettiquette and how to "moderate" ones statements because things do come across a certain way in print vs in person. As Paul pointed out, people will say things in messages on the forums that often they wouldn't say in person, or at least there would be some kind of tone or body language that would help to "moderate" the effect to listeners.
riogrande5167,Possibly my biggest personal flaw is that I don't suffer foolishness highly (a trait I got from my grandfather, or so I've heard). I just have a low tolerance for incorrect facts and, IMHO, flawed opinions based on incorrect facts or facts not in evidence. If that makes me a bad guy, then so be it.Paul A. Cutler III************
Paul A. Cutler III************
Paul, you know me as a long time forumite on Atlas (since 1994) also as Jim. Of course you are all grown up and a big boy, but I'm thinking you would not make a good diplomat! Maybe not a good company PR person either. Certainly "subtlety" can go a long way when on forums and communicating with other people, even if your subject opponent is rather "ham handed" when he walks in here! What good does it do you if you are banned for not suffering foolishness? Well, I guess if we have tolerant moderators some of us can skate on the edge and survive the ban stick. :D I personally think it works better to make a point with logic, facts, subtle words and finesse than with a sledgehammer. :D
riogrande5761,Actually, Boston's weather isn't that much like central NY as we don't get the kind of snow or cold air that they do. I live South of town, so we usually get even less than those poor souls on the Worcester plateau (central Mass.). The "warm" jet stream protects us from the worst of winter's wrath. For example, we haven't had much snow accumulation at all this winter. A lot of rain (Feb. was wettest ever), but the snow's been so-so (we'll take that, thank you!). Meanwhile, VT, NH, and ME have been getting positively pummled this year. Living up there...no thanks. I got some family in Bradford, VT, my sister went to Lyndon State (VT), and my family's ancestral home is in Parker Hill, VT, but my great-grandfather moved to Mass. almost 100 years ago, and I'm much happier for it.
Sorry, but you are a noob. Not to the hobby (how would I know?), but certainly to this forum and perhaps the internet as well. Top posting, name-calling, wrong facts (CNW had GP40X's?), refusing to admit to errors, quoting large blocks of text for no reason at all, no name given out, excess hyperbole (is Irv really spinning in his grave?), etc. I can't imagine you doing this in person, going into a new RR club and instantly railing against Athearn and calling anyone who disagrees part of their Glee Club. I'm sure you'd be real popular if you did (at least until they showed you the door).
You said, "I'm not going to turn this into a flame war..." HA! Says the guy who brought the Molotov cocktail, lit the wick and threw it. Funniest thing I've heard all day. BTW, if I'm the "loudmouth" (eh, I've been called worse), then why has it taken almost 6 years for me to get to 1000 posts? That's one post every other day. I guess I'm a "loudmouth" that doesn't post that much... Oh, and FYI this forum doesn't have an "ignore" feature.
riogrande5167,Possibly my biggest personal flaw is that I don't suffer foolishness highly (a trait I got from my grandfather, or so I've heard). I just have a low tolerance for incorrect facts and, IMHO, flawed opinions based on incorrect facts or facts not in evidence. If that makes me a bad guy, then so be it.
user="dti406" I have kept out of this thread as I have gone to having no use for Athearn products. I am not going to pay $17.00 (do not know if this is correct) for a RTR Blue Box car that I can put together in my sleep in 5 minutes. I save $10.00 for 5 minutes work and I would have had to replace the couplers anyway on the RTR Athearn car.
I have kept out of this thread as I have gone to having no use for Athearn products. I am not going to pay $17.00 (do not know if this is correct) for a RTR Blue Box car that I can put together in my sleep in 5 minutes. I save $10.00 for 5 minutes work and I would have had to replace the couplers anyway on the RTR Athearn car.
In reality you don't pay $17. I paid more like 10 or 11 dollars for the few BB RTR cars I got. I'm happy - they are versions I don't recall seeing in kit form and they came with metal wheels. BB ktis aren't that much less and add metal wheels and the cost is even closer to what I paid. So I'd say "red herring".
I have to check very carefully as Athearn paints cars in non-prototypical paint schemes for the class of car ie. the PRR Ore cars recently offered. Also most of the Blue Box kits and RTR cars are incorrect as regards ends, etc. as Irv would use the same end on all the kits even though it was incorrect, but he had the mold from another car, which lowered the cost and made the majority of Athearns line very affordable. Many of the cars are of a specific one railroad prototype which makes it difficult to use on another railroad or are totally incorrect.
You have to check very carefully with Accurail and Walthers too, they make many bogus painted cars or bogus paint scheme. Again, red herring vs an argument against Athearn specifically. I have Athearn, Walthers, Accurail etc, but I check on which are reasonable facsimilies of the prototype before I get them. I've sold off most of the ones I've found to be complete bogus models
So, if it is true or not that there is not Athearn around, I don't care as I have not bought an Athearn car except for some 86' Hi-Cubes as they are somewhat correct, and there is not anything else available, and I paint and decal my own cars anyway.Rick
Rick
I have some of the 86' auto box, 57' reefers and a few others. I buy from all the major makers: Athearn, Intermountain, Concor, MDC, Walthers, etc etc, where the models are good matches.
When some of us old timers bought cars, Athearn was all we had so we used them. I have a hundred plus cars that I painted and decaled using Athearn kits as that was the diagram the decal suppliers put with their decals. With all the information that we now have from the internet and other sources we now know how incorrect the models we made 25 years ago are. I am now building more correct cars because I now know better (but I doubt I will get rid of all the Athearn cars I painted because of the work involved).
So, if it is true or not that there is not Athearn around, I don't care as I have not bought an Athearn car except for some 86' Hi-Cubes as they are somewhat correct, and there is not anything else available, and I paint and decal my own cars anyway.
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
I guess I was too busy making other points at the same time for this one to sink in.
Horizon/Athearn has stated a willingness to re-issue anything in their line if there is sufficient demand. And they appear to have kept that promise, except possibly for the RDC, where the molds are not usuable any more.
Horizon/Athearn measures demand by orders from hobby shops (like most model railroad manufacturers). Threads in Internet forums complaining about their (mis)management do not count as orders from hobby shops.
Sufficient demand constitutes a minimum production run with enough likely immediate sales to break even. Some extra stock will be produced on speculation, with this extra stock representing the profit. Typical minimum production run in China is 3000 pieces. It probably can be somewhat smaller in the US, where I believe the BB are still made.
I leave it to the astute observer to connect the dots, and take the appropriate actions.
Fred W
Let's not ruin the thread, please. Keep it civil if you can't be outright friendly.
Thanks.
Paul may be a bit "out spoken" but I kind of agree with his assessments of the original posters comments about Athearn, and can see why those comments drew alot of criticism. But anyone can be critical or even "off base" with no respect to age or experience. Maybe chalk it up to "grumpy old men" syndrome or being anachronistic. I'm some where in the middle at 49. Paul is in his 30's and if the OP was modeling when Kennedy was president, he has probably 20 years on me. I was 4 years old when Kennedy was assassinated and barely remember watching the funeral procession on a black and white TV.
I for one am very happy with the changes at Athearn and the great stuff they have been producing that is of interest to western modelers in the past 5 years. Yes, its limited run stuff because no company likes to have stock sitting around unsold. You do have to jump on items when they are offered because they might be out of stock within 6-12 months. But I'm glad for what has been made available. Like I said, if you want blue box kits, they are still out there at train shows and in large quantities. Maybe they aren't sitting on many hobby shop shelves but they are in circulation.
Wow.. just Wow... Nervy noob? Troll? Obtuse? way to show the maturity there guy. I think you may want to take a break from these forums calm down and perhaps grow up a bit.
I was building model Trains during the Kennedy administration so I'm hardly a noob as you call it. As for me flaming out quickly It will be interesting to see if the moderators allow the blatant asshattery that you are showing other forum members who's opinions I might add are just as valid as yours. I'm not going to turn this into a flame war, and further fill your need to be the local forum Loudmouth, so I'll put you on ignore and drop out of the thread.
Paul3 wrote: highhood63,Yes, slamming. "I don' know if it's from really bad management...", "I just see it as a idiotic move on Horizons part...", "...long as they get off this limited Run BS." Calling them idiotic bad managers that produce BS sounds like a slam to me. For the record, I don't like Horizon much, either, nor the way they distribute models. But then I recognize that Horizon is out to make money, and therefore if they aren't producing BB kits its probably because they can make more money selling RTR items.Yes, I think it's true that BB items are not produced in numbers like they used to, and I would agree when it is said that there are fewer BB products available. However, right now, Athearn makes far more different products overall than they ever have. Genesis, RTR, Roundhouse, buildings, etc., in addition to the lower numbers of BB kits they still make today. Athearn isn't dumb...they are chasing the dollar like everyone else. It's the American way.Athearn continually makes new runs when demand warrants it. It may not be in the same road numbers as before (or in the same paint scheme), but they will make more at some point of just about everything that is currently "discontinued". The RDC molds I've heard have broken so you won't see any more of these offered, but just about everything else will be re-run at some point. RS-3's have had a couple runs now, CF-7's had more than a few, and continuos F-unit production, etc. Heck, even the Genesis Pacfics are being re-done.At every hobby shop you go to new BB kits are in "big demand"? You must be stuck in the 1980's as every hobby shop and train show in the Boston area hardly stocks them at all. Unless you have sales figures from Athearn, you have no idea if there's much nationwide demand for new BB kits at all.Atlas always has 70% of it's product line in continuous production? Maybe if you consider track and buildings part of it's product line. Maybe. But if we're talking about locos and cars, then forget it. You simply have no idea what you're talking about (unless you want to offer some proof rather than some opinions for once?) as Atlas only offers a limited run on every single car and loco.Yes, the GP40X is an oddball. Only 23 made over 7 months? Total oddball. Heck, the DL-109 is considered an oddball, and they made 74 of those. And CNW had GP40X's? Sigh. This is further evidence you have no idea what you're talking about.And while the universe may or may not revolve around Massachusetts (Boston is, after all, the Hub of the Universe ), I know for certain that it does not revolve around your likes and dislikes. highhood63,"Athearn Glee Club"? Puh-leeze. You've got some nerve for a noob, I'll give you that...but that's not necessarily a good thing. Nervy noobs tend to flame out quickly on the 'net.How can Athearn be your favorite manufacturer when you don't buy their stuff? That's what you said...that Athearn is your "favorite" manufacturer, yet you also say you own very few Athearns at all. "Only a couple units are Athearn...", and "Point being a fraction of my purchases are Athearn..." Gosh, with customers like you, no wonder Athearn isn't making what you want.As for anyone taking Athearn's place in the BB market, it'll never happen (it'd die out first). Why? For starters there isn't much of a market, and if anyone even tried Athearn would nail them at the price point. For example, even Atlas and Branchline's low-cost lines (about $13 a car) are still more than Athearn's BB's ($7.50). The direction of this hobby is clear...and it's not towards BB kits.Irv is spinning in his grave? Oh, c'mon. He was also a pretty good business man himself (remember GSB?). Back in the day, he also tried RTR cars (gasp!). I've seen them (the boxes had clear windows), and they look like they were done in the 1960's (look at Athearn's website "About Athearn"). Yes, good ol' St. Irv actually made RTR models. He was ahead of his time as the market wasn't there. Now it is, and the only ones to "blame" are model railroaders themselves.And if you think folks can't tell the difference between a GP40 and GP40X...are you really that obtuse? Or is are you just being a troll? Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
highhood63,Yes, slamming. "I don' know if it's from really bad management...", "I just see it as a idiotic move on Horizons part...", "...long as they get off this limited Run BS." Calling them idiotic bad managers that produce BS sounds like a slam to me. For the record, I don't like Horizon much, either, nor the way they distribute models. But then I recognize that Horizon is out to make money, and therefore if they aren't producing BB kits its probably because they can make more money selling RTR items.
Yes, I think it's true that BB items are not produced in numbers like they used to, and I would agree when it is said that there are fewer BB products available. However, right now, Athearn makes far more different products overall than they ever have. Genesis, RTR, Roundhouse, buildings, etc., in addition to the lower numbers of BB kits they still make today. Athearn isn't dumb...they are chasing the dollar like everyone else. It's the American way.
Athearn continually makes new runs when demand warrants it. It may not be in the same road numbers as before (or in the same paint scheme), but they will make more at some point of just about everything that is currently "discontinued". The RDC molds I've heard have broken so you won't see any more of these offered, but just about everything else will be re-run at some point. RS-3's have had a couple runs now, CF-7's had more than a few, and continuos F-unit production, etc. Heck, even the Genesis Pacfics are being re-done.
At every hobby shop you go to new BB kits are in "big demand"? You must be stuck in the 1980's as every hobby shop and train show in the Boston area hardly stocks them at all. Unless you have sales figures from Athearn, you have no idea if there's much nationwide demand for new BB kits at all.
Atlas always has 70% of it's product line in continuous production? Maybe if you consider track and buildings part of it's product line. Maybe. But if we're talking about locos and cars, then forget it. You simply have no idea what you're talking about (unless you want to offer some proof rather than some opinions for once?) as Atlas only offers a limited run on every single car and loco.
Yes, the GP40X is an oddball. Only 23 made over 7 months? Total oddball. Heck, the DL-109 is considered an oddball, and they made 74 of those. And CNW had GP40X's? Sigh. This is further evidence you have no idea what you're talking about.
And while the universe may or may not revolve around Massachusetts (Boston is, after all, the Hub of the Universe ), I know for certain that it does not revolve around your likes and dislikes.
highhood63,"Athearn Glee Club"? Puh-leeze. You've got some nerve for a noob, I'll give you that...but that's not necessarily a good thing. Nervy noobs tend to flame out quickly on the 'net.
How can Athearn be your favorite manufacturer when you don't buy their stuff? That's what you said...that Athearn is your "favorite" manufacturer, yet you also say you own very few Athearns at all. "Only a couple units are Athearn...", and "Point being a fraction of my purchases are Athearn..." Gosh, with customers like you, no wonder Athearn isn't making what you want.
As for anyone taking Athearn's place in the BB market, it'll never happen (it'd die out first). Why? For starters there isn't much of a market, and if anyone even tried Athearn would nail them at the price point. For example, even Atlas and Branchline's low-cost lines (about $13 a car) are still more than Athearn's BB's ($7.50). The direction of this hobby is clear...and it's not towards BB kits.
Irv is spinning in his grave? Oh, c'mon. He was also a pretty good business man himself (remember GSB?). Back in the day, he also tried RTR cars (gasp!). I've seen them (the boxes had clear windows), and they look like they were done in the 1960's (look at Athearn's website "About Athearn"). Yes, good ol' St. Irv actually made RTR models. He was ahead of his time as the market wasn't there. Now it is, and the only ones to "blame" are model railroaders themselves.
And if you think folks can't tell the difference between a GP40 and GP40X...are you really that obtuse? Or is are you just being a troll?
NittanyLion wrote: ESlade4 wrote:For me the lack of stock is all about the blue box. Athearn is doing good things with their RTR line just like a lot of other manufacturers, that's fine, it's also not the point. It's about the blue box. I just got back into model railroading after a 20 year hiatus. BB kits give me a cheap way to build or rebuild skills that I don't currently have. It gives me a quick, cheap way to work on those skills or help my stepson or someone else see if they like modeling. It doesn't take a lot of time or money and they are easy enough to be a good confidence builder. They are cheap cars to experiment on doing things like weathering or kitbashing that I need to work on.Yeah this is really getting me too. I don't always want to plunk down $30 for some RTR car. I'd like to drop, I don't know, $10 on something to have some fun putting together. Can get three times as many cars too, and dont have to worry about ruining that much worth of car when Im trying something.
ESlade4 wrote:For me the lack of stock is all about the blue box. Athearn is doing good things with their RTR line just like a lot of other manufacturers, that's fine, it's also not the point. It's about the blue box. I just got back into model railroading after a 20 year hiatus. BB kits give me a cheap way to build or rebuild skills that I don't currently have. It gives me a quick, cheap way to work on those skills or help my stepson or someone else see if they like modeling. It doesn't take a lot of time or money and they are easy enough to be a good confidence builder. They are cheap cars to experiment on doing things like weathering or kitbashing that I need to work on.
Yeah this is really getting me too. I don't always want to plunk down $30 for some RTR car. I'd like to drop, I don't know, $10 on something to have some fun putting together. Can get three times as many cars too, and dont have to worry about ruining that much worth of car when Im trying something.
Of course most of the RTR cars from Intermountain or Genesis can be had for around $20-25 with some shopping around. Of course there is quality and quantity. If you want large numbers of cheap blue box - they are still out there. Every year I go to the Syracuse train show and there are still dealers with PLENTY of blue box and MDC kits on tables. Usually it looks like the same stuff year after year. It doesn't look like people are snatching it all up in droves. I've divested myself of alot of my blue box but still have a few - mainly 86' autobox cars, 57' PFE reefers and the like.
Maybe hobby shops don't keep rows and rows of bb cars, but they ARE still out there. Have at em!
Paul3 - heh heh. Boom! :-)
Anyway, you can have Boston! I grew up in northern California, and have lived in Texas, Indiana and most recently central NY state. If Boston weather is anything like Syracuse (not far off I'd imagine, just a little less snow), then you can have Boston! I'm looking to get our of here to warmer climes as soon as practical.
All I know is when I go to one or two hobby shops, there is a walkway full of Athearn BB's That is enough for me. I have bought Athearn kits 30 years ago and continue to buy them today. I do miss some of the really limited runs of Athearn and/or Roundhouse kit products way back when and wonder if the tooling still exists for another run but after 20 years I doubt it. The Tobacco series was one example.
I think Athearn will be around for at least 50 more years or more.
Now some of the truly limited production or Investor level financing is way over my head and I wont try to swim in those waters with my subpar public skool economics.
Paul.Uncle Irv also made RTR cars for Atlas at one time..So as you noted RTR isn't new and Irv was indeed a business men that supplied several companies to include Lionel(HO),Cox,Roundhouse and others.
http://hoseeker.net/swapgallery/athearnatlaskits
Seems to me RTR engines and cars been around for years-and that includes the brass engines of the 50s.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Sorry about the delay, folks, but I just got a new computer and it took a while to set up...
Autobus Prime,You detest limited runs, eh? Then you must have liked the days of unlimited runs. Please go and find a pre-limited run Walthers catalog from the 1980's or the very early 1990's and tell me what you like about what was available at the quality level of yesteryear. Also note how often new models came out...or rather didn't. It's not much of a surprise to note that European loco models had more pages in the Walthers catalog than American loco models.
Oh, and consumerism is what model railroading has been about since Joshua Lionel Cowen started making models for sale over 100 years ago (heck, even before then, too). Even live steam guys that make their own steel models from scatch have to buy the raw materials and the tools to shape them with.
If you disagree that limited runs are "here to stay", please let me know how or why you think they will go back to unlimited runs, 'cause I can't think of any reasons at all. Going to the "high end" of the market with RTR and Genesis has probably saved Athearn from the fate of Varney and Mantua.
CAZEPHYR,Um, actually, you have the Athearn timeline a bit off. FYI: Irv died, and the family sold out to investment-types. These investors only wanted a good return on their money, and so immediately started improving the company's worth so as to make money when they in turn sold it. The investors started Genesis, RTR, and improvements to the BB line. They also bought Rail Power Products as it was a natural extension of the Athearn line. Their work made Athearn more valuable than when Irv ran it, so they sold it to Horizon (who then, of course bought Roundhouse and McHenry).
You have touched on the No. 1 reason why folks are complaining, BTW. They are used to hobby shops stocking BB kits in endless rows for years and years, and they could go into the shop and get them whenever they wanted...cheap. Then Athearn and others started making higher priced quality RTR models that sold well. A hobby shop is a business like any other (out to make money), so they stopped ordering slow-selling & inexpensive BB kits and filled the shelves with new faster-selling RTR at a much better price (for them). Since one makes more money selling a $15 RTR vs. a $7.50 kit, naturally the kits are off the shelf. Athearn, not being dummies, knows this (they see their order numbers plummet) and so makes fewer BB kits because there is less demand. This, of course, allows the complainers to bang the "we're doooooomed!" drum until it drowns out all reason.
Autobus Prime,It's not that Athearn is letting BB kits "coast", it's that the folks aren't buying enough of them to matter.
Autobus Prime,Please don't compare Athearn to GM, or heck, any auto manufacturer as it's just apples to oranges. GM makes 9,000,000 cars a year and Ford makes 6,500,000. The two of them combined have over 500,000 employees.
dinwitty,To me, this hobby is about running trains, not simply building them. If it was just about building them, I'd also still be building those airplane kits and armor models that I did as a kid. You can't fly a Revell 1/48th B-17 too well, nor get that 1/35th Hetzer tank to roll and fire rounds, but you can get that train rollin' in a very realistic fashion for a model.
MisterBeasley wrote:Likewise, the rolling stock comes with plastic couplers. Each Athearn car has the added cost of a pair of Kadees to make it layout-worthy.
Likewise, the rolling stock comes with plastic couplers. Each Athearn car has the added cost of a pair of Kadees to make it layout-worthy.
What did you do during the last 40 years when ALL manufacturers put horn hook couplers in kits?
riogrande5761 wrote: MisterBeasley wrote: I haven't bought an Athearn engine for over 40 years, and from what I've read here, I'll probably go for 50. The MRC decoders they are using have gotten a bad reputation, so why bother when other manufacturers are including better decoders for about the same price?I guess you don't need things like SD40T-2's or SD45T-2's or GP40-2's for example. See, its all about which engines you need. Easy for you to thumb your nose at Athearn but your fav RR probably just happened to use loco's offered by another manufacturer. Thats convenient. I buy from Atlas, Athearn, Athearn Genesis, Proto 2000 and KATO, because all of those companies make diesels I need. It's that simple. I do thumb my nose at a few of lines, but mainly because there is something equivelent/better made by one of the above.Likewise, the rolling stock comes with plastic couplers. Each Athearn car has the added cost of a pair of Kadees to make it layout-worthy.Red herring. So what? Tell me, how many companies sell their stuff with KD's? Intermountain? Now the very latests Walthers rolling stock are shipping with metal KD like couplers. Its modus operandi for many of us to swap out to KD's anyway.Right..and that was actually my original point...I didn't really expect to get waylaid by the local Athearn Glee club " border="0" width="30" height="20" />Yep! That would be me! I'm gleeful that they made those nice SD40T-2's in D&RGW (got 7 so far) and SP too! Sweet! And the soon to be shipped SD45's, also with the correct low nose light! And all those nice upgraded Thrall coal gons, 90 so far and still getting more. And the 5-bay Ornters. The list goes on and on.I'm guessing Hihood is not a western modeler. Athearn is making us western modelers real happy. Atlas, I love it but its products are biased to eastern so ... not as much of that stuff.
MisterBeasley wrote: I haven't bought an Athearn engine for over 40 years, and from what I've read here, I'll probably go for 50. The MRC decoders they are using have gotten a bad reputation, so why bother when other manufacturers are including better decoders for about the same price?
I haven't bought an Athearn engine for over 40 years, and from what I've read here, I'll probably go for 50. The MRC decoders they are using have gotten a bad reputation, so why bother when other manufacturers are including better decoders for about the same price?
I guess you don't need things like SD40T-2's or SD45T-2's or GP40-2's for example. See, its all about which engines you need. Easy for you to thumb your nose at Athearn but your fav RR probably just happened to use loco's offered by another manufacturer. Thats convenient. I buy from Atlas, Athearn, Athearn Genesis, Proto 2000 and KATO, because all of those companies make diesels I need. It's that simple. I do thumb my nose at a few of lines, but mainly because there is something equivelent/better made by one of the above.
Red herring. So what? Tell me, how many companies sell their stuff with KD's? Intermountain? Now the very latests Walthers rolling stock are shipping with metal KD like couplers. Its modus operandi for many of us to swap out to KD's anyway.
Right..and that was actually my original point...I didn't really expect to get waylaid by the local Athearn Glee club " border="0" width="30" height="20" />
Yep! That would be me! I'm gleeful that they made those nice SD40T-2's in D&RGW (got 7 so far) and SP too! Sweet! And the soon to be shipped SD45's, also with the correct low nose light! And all those nice upgraded Thrall coal gons, 90 so far and still getting more. And the 5-bay Ornters. The list goes on and on.
I'm guessing Hihood is not a western modeler. Athearn is making us western modelers real happy. Atlas, I love it but its products are biased to eastern so ... not as much of that stuff.
I am in the same boat. I buy all roads that appeal to me, and I buy all brands.
I bought a BLI RSD-15 a few years ago, and I was impressed that they came with Kadees (or at least a VERY good spoof Kadee coupler). When I tried it (moved it with my finger) I was shocked...it didn't center correctly. Sure enough, they used #5s with the centering springs, and they didn't work.
Even with Kadees, I STILL had to replace the couplers, and I replaced it with my favorite...McHenry scale couplers (Yes, those dreaded ones everyone hates). I have never had a problem with them.
I am sure that the Kadee whisker couplers work just as well, if not better. However, for a person like me who runs 15 freight cars on a train, and mainly buys and details engines and cars to display them, Mc Henrys do just fine, without paying more for Kadees.
If anybody has one of those "bins" of McHenry scale couplers that they just want to chuck in the trash, PM me...
Phil
armchair wrote: I am kinda tired of this Reserve Now mentality --- Sounds like HD. Motor Co.'s attitude to me.
That's why I bought a Victory. LOL!!!
jerryl wrote: Many smaller Hobby shops no longer carry Athern because of a minimum order requirement. They have to order a certain dollar amount per year to carry thier product. They also insist that they be the only distributor. It's true that most I've seen at train shows are old stock items. Really think they made a mistake not letting Walthers distribute. Also, the choice of the MRC sound decoder isn't helping.....Time will tell.
i don't know where you're getting your information, but it's patently false.
CNJ831 wrote: fwright wrote: dinwitty wrote: What are these manufacturers thinking? This is a builder's hobby, but granted Mr Average Public isn't skilled, or is that the trend in today's world, everybody is just buy it off the shelf and its done? The manufacturers are thinking what their sales and experience show them. Look at how locomotives sales have expanded with the acceptance of RTR by the mainstream. There are many model railroaders/collectors with more than 20 locomotives. If the only way to obtain locomotives was to build kits, how many of us would have more than 20 locomotives?
fwright wrote: dinwitty wrote: What are these manufacturers thinking? This is a builder's hobby, but granted Mr Average Public isn't skilled, or is that the trend in today's world, everybody is just buy it off the shelf and its done? The manufacturers are thinking what their sales and experience show them. Look at how locomotives sales have expanded with the acceptance of RTR by the mainstream. There are many model railroaders/collectors with more than 20 locomotives. If the only way to obtain locomotives was to build kits, how many of us would have more than 20 locomotives?
dinwitty wrote: What are these manufacturers thinking? This is a builder's hobby, but granted Mr Average Public isn't skilled, or is that the trend in today's world, everybody is just buy it off the shelf and its done?
What are these manufacturers thinking? This is a builder's hobby, but granted Mr Average Public isn't skilled, or is that the trend in today's world, everybody is just buy it off the shelf and its done?
The manufacturers are thinking what their sales and experience show them. Look at how locomotives sales have expanded with the acceptance of RTR by the mainstream. There are many model railroaders/collectors with more than 20 locomotives. If the only way to obtain locomotives was to build kits, how many of us would have more than 20 locomotives?
Honestly, I doubt most of us could use 20. I have come to believe that 5 steamers or perhaps 10 diseasels (which have to run MU to equal the AWESOME of one teakettle) of good-running, good-looking locos would be my perfect personal roster. Of course, this is entirely a thought experiment, as even now I don't follow this rule, but I do have two engines that do 90% of the work.
As for the RTR bit, there really has never been a time when the only source was kits, because before scale RTR really began to be popular (in the space-age 1950s) its place was filled by converted and semi-scale tinplate. Everybody had Gilbert HO Hudsons. But even with kit and scratchbuilt locos, model railroaders have been gathering more locos they can use since probably 1930. :)
It still may be a builders hobby for some of us, but not for the majority. Another benefit of the RTR trend besides the expanded locomotive market is the huge increase in the number of layouts larger than 4x8 reaching a reasonable completion level, thereby expanding the market for all model railroad supplies. Thanks to RTR, a room-sized layout completed to the point of mostly scenicked and operational, 20 locomotives, and 50 cars is achieveable in 1-3 years (provided you have enough money). DCC has all but eliminated control panels and simplified wiring. But when you had to build your locomotives, cars, structures, turnouts, and control panels from parts or kits, getting a room-sized layout to an operational state with some scenery was a 5-10 year endeavor. There are still plenty of craftsman kits available - you just don't see them advertised in Model Railroader. And they are usually gathering dust in the back corners of the better LHSs, and not even present at all in the not-so-better LHSs. This is where so many posters on this forum get it wrong, simply because they believe this site is representative of the hobby at large, instead of the reality of its being comprised mainly of casual modelers and hobby newbies. The more serious and skilled hobbyists, whose numbers are very considerable, are most definitely still mainly builders of one form or another, except perhaps in the case of locomotives (which they continue to super-detail and customize)...Truthfully, there are pretty much two different hobbies involved here: popular model railroading and the traditional, advanced, craftsmen-level, hobby. It's just that today one takes little notice of, nor often even seems to appreciate the existence of, the other.
It still may be a builders hobby for some of us, but not for the majority. Another benefit of the RTR trend besides the expanded locomotive market is the huge increase in the number of layouts larger than 4x8 reaching a reasonable completion level, thereby expanding the market for all model railroad supplies. Thanks to RTR, a room-sized layout completed to the point of mostly scenicked and operational, 20 locomotives, and 50 cars is achieveable in 1-3 years (provided you have enough money). DCC has all but eliminated control panels and simplified wiring. But when you had to build your locomotives, cars, structures, turnouts, and control panels from parts or kits, getting a room-sized layout to an operational state with some scenery was a 5-10 year endeavor. There are still plenty of craftsman kits available - you just don't see them advertised in Model Railroader. And they are usually gathering dust in the back corners of the better LHSs, and not even present at all in the not-so-better LHSs.
It still may be a builders hobby for some of us, but not for the majority. Another benefit of the RTR trend besides the expanded locomotive market is the huge increase in the number of layouts larger than 4x8 reaching a reasonable completion level, thereby expanding the market for all model railroad supplies. Thanks to RTR, a room-sized layout completed to the point of mostly scenicked and operational, 20 locomotives, and 50 cars is achieveable in 1-3 years (provided you have enough money). DCC has all but eliminated control panels and simplified wiring. But when you had to build your locomotives, cars, structures, turnouts, and control panels from parts or kits, getting a room-sized layout to an operational state with some scenery was a 5-10 year endeavor.
There are still plenty of craftsman kits available - you just don't see them advertised in Model Railroader. And they are usually gathering dust in the back corners of the better LHSs, and not even present at all in the not-so-better LHSs.
This is where so many posters on this forum get it wrong, simply because they believe this site is representative of the hobby at large, instead of the reality of its being comprised mainly of casual modelers and hobby newbies. The more serious and skilled hobbyists, whose numbers are very considerable, are most definitely still mainly builders of one form or another, except perhaps in the case of locomotives (which they continue to super-detail and customize)...
Truthfully, there are pretty much two different hobbies involved here: popular model railroading and the traditional, advanced, craftsmen-level, hobby. It's just that today one takes little notice of, nor often even seems to appreciate the existence of, the other.
CNJ:
Also, perhaps, builders tend to buy less, and don't really talk about their build-related purchases as they can feel lacking a certain something. I HAZ STRIPWOOD YAY!1!! (As much as it pleases me personally to find a good source of said staple...)
Really, I don't understand it when I see people claim that Mr. Average Public isn't skilled, and doesn't want to build. People are building decks and garages all the time, and tinkering with old cars, and really our stuff isn't much different, just smaller. I think some of the simpler and more accessible techniques could stand a little more exposure, for those who haven't yet discovered the value of reading those old magazines.
(Please don't go discovering that value *too* much, folks, I want them to stay cheap for me.)
CNJ831,I know several advance modelers that uses RTR items..Some even goes as far as assembling Craftman style kits.
However,with todays "time sensitive hobby"(what ever the hey that means) Craftsman and super detailers are getting scarce if what we read on some forums is true.Some "don't have time" to add a simple aftermarket detail part or minor road specific detail and whines because it missing from a model.If that's what you call "The more serious and skilled hobbyists" I will stay a causual.
Also I would say the majority of the hobbyist are casuals and far from "serious and skilled hobbyists" you claim to be the majority judging from the local clubs,talking to modelers trackside,at train shows etc(some of us are active in the people side of the hobby) and looking at the pictures in the weekly photo fun on this and other forums..
Either way we can agree that locomotive details are fantastic but,that had to come to pass.Even the upgraded Bachmann locomotives looks better then their older train set siblings.
------------------------------------------
While that is true you may want to look at the other manufacturers cars as well.Atlas's $30.00 cars come with plastic couplers as well as does Walthers and other like brands.Those crappy plastic couplers just replace those X2F couplers that came with the majority of the cars.
Sadly there is still a need to toss useless couplers and replace 'em with KDs just like we did with those old X2Fs not so long ago.
fwright wrote: dinwitty wrote: What are these manufacturers thinking? This is a builder's hobby, but granted Mr Average Public isn't skilled, or is that the trend in today's world, everybody is just buy it off the shelf and its done? Every layout will be exactly the same if that were true. Sooorrrryyyy, we're back to the toy train business, just with higher quality. A layout is a designed and sometimes personal and that delight of building something cool thet YOU did.The manufacturers are thinking what their sales and experience show them. Look at how locomotives sales have expanded with the acceptance of RTR by the mainstream. There are many model railroaders/collectors with more than 20 locomotives. If the only way to obtain locomotives was to build kits, how many of us would have more than 20 locomotives? I guarantee the number would be a lot less.It still may be a builders hobby for some of us, but not for the majority. Another benefit of the RTR trend besides the expanded locomotive market is the huge increase in the number of layouts larger than 4x8 reaching a reasonable completion level, thereby expanding the market for all model railroad supplies. Thanks to RTR, a room-sized layout completed to the point of mostly scenicked and operational, 20 locomotives, and 50 cars is achieveable in 1-3 years (provided you have enough money). DCC has all but eliminated control panels and simplified wiring. But when you had to build your locomotives, cars, structures, turnouts, and control panels from parts or kits, getting a room-sized layout to an operational state with some scenery was a 5-10 year endeavor. There are still plenty of craftsman kits available - you just don't see them advertised in Model Railroader. And they are usually gathering dust in the back corners of the better LHSs, and not even present at all in the not-so-better LHSs.
dinwitty wrote: What are these manufacturers thinking? This is a builder's hobby, but granted Mr Average Public isn't skilled, or is that the trend in today's world, everybody is just buy it off the shelf and its done? Every layout will be exactly the same if that were true. Sooorrrryyyy, we're back to the toy train business, just with higher quality. A layout is a designed and sometimes personal and that delight of building something cool thet YOU did.
What are these manufacturers thinking? This is a builder's hobby, but granted Mr Average Public isn't skilled, or is that the trend in today's world, everybody is just buy it off the shelf and its done? Every layout will be exactly the same if that were true. Sooorrrryyyy, we're back to the toy train business, just with higher quality. A layout is a designed and sometimes personal and that delight of building something cool thet YOU did.
The manufacturers are thinking what their sales and experience show them. Look at how locomotives sales have expanded with the acceptance of RTR by the mainstream. There are many model railroaders/collectors with more than 20 locomotives. If the only way to obtain locomotives was to build kits, how many of us would have more than 20 locomotives? I guarantee the number would be a lot less.
This is where so many posters on this forum get it wrong, simply because they believe this site is representative of the hobby at large, instead of the reality of its being comprised mainly of casual modelers and hobby newbies. The more serious and skilled hobbyists, whose numbers are very considerable, are most definitely still mainly builders of one form or another, except perhaps in the case of locomotives (which they continue to super-detail and customize). Very little in the way of RTR items of any type are of broad interest in their circles. If you doubt the above, just visit some of the more serious model railroading sites and see for yourself. Compare the WPF layouts seen here with what you see displayed weekly on many other sites. I think most will be shocked by what they see and the amount of high quality scratch/kit-building more accomplished modelers are doing today...and reflected in their outstanding pikes.
What has indeed changed, is that the dedicated model railroaders have, to a considerable extent, left the general marketplace and now deal directly with the smaller, advanced kit manufacturers, often through their websites and SIG forums. Many of their products are sold out well in advance of ever appearing and some of the kits are even designed by the creative members of the groups. This area of the hobby must be profitable, as new laser structure kit and custom product companies have been appearing right and left lately. You certainly can't say that for large mainstream companies. And you won't see many of the craftsman-oriented companies placing significant ads in the MR, simply because they know that their intended clientele pretty much aren't there any longer.
I'd have to say that the general marketplace today is mainly the province of beginners and those at a more "popular-level" of model railroading. These same folks do seem to have the ready cash and the willingness to spend it on buying upscale, RTR models. Observe how the introduction of some new RTR model raises such an entusiastic torrent of posts on this forum. Typically, that same item won't produce a ripple on the more advanced sites, simply because they are populated by serious hobby craftsmen, not buyers of RTR. Truthfully, there are pretty much two different hobbies involved here: popular model railroading and the traditional, advanced, craftsmen-level, hobby. It's just that today one takes little notice of, nor often even seems to appreciate the existence of, the other.
CNJ831
Still, I'm looking forward to the Checker Marathon taxis when they come out, and I've picked up a few of the Athearn autos already. Compared with the new Atlas ones, they're a bargain. And they don't need replacement couplers or decoders, either.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Me thinks everybody is forgetting the Athearn RTR is reasonably price at discount.Also one can't compare a high end(and higher price) locomotive to a economy line locomotive-kinda like comparing a Focus to a Caddy or any luxury car..
Let's face the truth..Many modeler can't afford the more expensive locomotives and cars even at discount.Some times one can buy 2 Athearn at discount for 1 Atlas/Kato/P2K locomotive at discount...
Ever wonder why Atlas started the low end Trainman line or why there is a P1K line? That should speak volumes.Even Branchline has low end cars..Their Yardmaster Series.