Full-room helix?

[ronmcc]

try reading the book "Model Railroading with John Allen" by Linn H. Westcott. It will give you a lot of good info and also it is a must have book for your train library.

[R. T. POTEET]

Babette, let me take this opportunity to welcome you to the forum; there are a lot of inspiring and knowledgable modelers monitor this forum - I do hope that I am included in that throng - and you can garnish some very useful information here. Most of us have skinned our nose and stubbed our toe on a number of different things and most of us would wish to share our experiences so you would not find it necessary to do likewise.

What you are proposing - or perhaps more accurately might be seeking feasibility input - has been done several times; sometime in the past fifteen or twenty years I remember seeing a proposed track plan which utilized just this concept: a layout which climbed from a lower level to a higher level and utilized the whole perimeter of the room to effect the change. On more than one occasion John Armstrong even tackled this idea of multi-level layouts with a long steady climb to reach the second level.

Your 20' X 30" room gives you a perimeter of 100' with an effective perimeter of approximately 91' available for mainline trackage. Figuring a separation of 18" would require a grade of approximately 1.7%; thrust a peninsula into the center of the room off of the 20' side would extend your effective perimeter to about 135' and lower your grade to about 1.1%. Do a twice-around to achieve desired elevation would cut your grade down to about 50% of those figures.

Surprisingly, I encountered a layout such as you are proposing in my first years in my model railroading experience. A 1960's article in RMC detailed a layout - outside third-rail O Scale CNJ-prototype - in which the model rail followed the walls of his basement to bring coal from the Anthracite coal fields of Pennsylvania to dockside in New Jersey. His grade was about 2% if I remember right and he had numerous terminals with turntables and approximately each revolution of the basement he swapped out engines to continue his run to tidewater; except for these turntables this layout was almost scenery/structureless. The layout was designed to show-off this individual's motive power which was absolutely exquisite; what I found most interesting was that his stable of motive power consisted almost exclusively of Mother Hubbards - it would be a couple of years before I would finally learn just what a Camelback locomotive was and why that cab was hung across the middle of the boiler.

[dinwitty]

The club I was in had 2 peninsulas where the track went up and down with some towns for some switching fun, you stayed in one spot and the train went past you a few times then moved on to the next penisula area, with a few hidden areas in a mountaneous region.

[johncolley]

For your consideration: 1. A peninsula centered on one of the short walls with a stacked pair of helices at it's base. 2. a lower level staging yard on the peninsula feeding into the (lower) helix. Come off the lower helix at your crew's comfortable working level around the room, using a swing gate at the doorway if needed. This level can have some grades and some level switching areas. The far end feeds into the second (upper) helix. 3. an upper level coming off the top helix can go around the room to another staging yard. 4. Now you have realistic point-to-point operation with switching districts and, if desired, a medium sized working yard in between. jc5729 John Colley, Port Townsend, WA

[BCSJ]

A no-lix implies that the main line of the railroad goes around the edge of the room (and possibly out a peninsula (or peninsulae)) before arriving back where it started except at a higher elevation.

The key to a working no-lix is to have a suffient run to keep grades under control between towns which should be kept level to avoid (as was previously mentioned) run away rolling stock.

With your 20x30 room there shouldn't be to much trouble in this department. 20x30x20x30 is roughly 100' of mainline per lap. If 50% of it is level (towns/sidings) that leaves about 50' for grades. A 2% grade will climb 1' in 50' of run. If you add a peninsula to the design with another 60' of track on it then a 2% grade (on 50% of the run) will get you about 20" of rise between decks which should be more than sufficient. If you can put more track on the peninsula so much the better.

One problem of a no-lix is connecting the ends together. Bother the Maumee and Tony Koesters new NKP no-lix layouts are point to point with no continuous connection (iirc). If such a connection is important to you then you'll need to add a helix (ugh) to connect the ends together (but a helix to/from staging is much less obnoxious than a helix in mid run)

But if you're looking for a long, sincere (track passing only once through each scene), trackplan the nolix is one of the most effective ways to do so.

Regards,

Charlie Comstock 

[SilverSpike]

Learn something new everyday, I have one and did not know it was called a "nolix"!

I have a 2% grade that winds around 3/4 of the train room on my work in progress (WIP) layout and attaches the two decks which are 14" apart.

The double main line "nolix" is the track that winds around from the East (right side of image) to the South (top) and West (left side) then enters the mountain tunnel and continues as hidden track to the North (bottom) side of the layout and eventually reappears on the top deck as seen below:

Actually the top deck is going to be re-drawn but the track will reappear in the same location.

[dinwitty]

This is my first post, boys, so take it easy on me.

We're in the process of creating an HO layout in a 20x30 room with very high ceilings. I've been trying to read all of the "interesting" general posts from oldest to newest to help me get back into this after a long hiatus. I'm up to Page 1528. I haven't seen this question addressed yet, so I apologize if it has been in the four years between Page 1528 and Page 1. (Searching "Helix" didn't give me an answer either.)

We're using the Atlas program for the general track design. I like to think of the general design as a three-level amoeba. We've considered a basic helix hidden by a mountain for getting from level to level. But I see all of that open wall between levels - and even above - and think: Instead of hiding the trains, why not run narrow mainlines around the circumference of the room like a full-room helix. On the days when I'm "in the train mood", but not into a full operating session, I find that just watching the trains go around is memorizing, relaxing, and even therapeutic.
Any thoughts?

Thanks,

 

This has been the long drawn out ordeal for me going from level to level.  I dont like hidden track. I have seen some layouts and designs where the lower front level is slightly lower than a back track and that back track is like your visible helix going to the next level. You might call that track in the same technical place as the front track but a different railroad, but its really your same line getting higher. You don't feature it as hard maybe have occassional scenery blocks.

At the same time the higher level might broaden out and have a town or yard while the lower track is 1 or two tracks and is just running length.

 

Some of the scenery would make sense, then it won't.

I'm doing shelf modeling one shelf can be one distinct location, the next shelf might be miles away in the scheme, open track might butt against a towering town, oh well, solves some problems.

 

 

 

[tomikawaTT]

My new layout will incorprotate a nolix to go from level 1 to level 2, but a helix hidden under the stairs to go from the staging level up to levels 1 and 2.  That is all that it will be used for.  The tehachapei idea is great and I will look into incorporating it into the nolix.

When I get that far in construction, I intend to have something of an 'unstacked helix' on my real mountain climber - a loooong grade, with two separate Tehachapi-style loops.  That's one way to raise the line from 42 inches to 59 inches in less than half of a 2-car garage.

For those who like challenges, there is a prototype helix on the 30 inch gauge Alishan Forest Railway in Taiwan - three turns around a mountain, the top one a figure-eight!  (The whole railroad is a nolix-4% grade variety.  It also incorporates switchbacks.)

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[caldreamer]

My new layout will incorprotate a nolix to go from level 1 to level 2, but a helix hidden under the stairs to go from the staging level up to levels 1 and 2.  That is all that it will be used for.  The tehachapei idea is great and I will look into incorporating it into the nolix.

[jfugate]

The nolix is an excellent alternative to a two-deck layout with a helix. If you're modeling a mountain line, the nolix can be used to create a nice long helper grade between the levels on a narrow shelf.

Or if you have a larger room, the nolix actually gives you a way to model a flat land railroad using multiple decks, but have a gentle grade circling the room to get you a double-decked railraoad. This last approach is what Bill Darnaby has done with his freelanced Maumee Line. The railroad represents a midwest flat lands/rolling hills railroad, and Bill's able to get two decks into his space using a nolix and a gentle grade around the room.

I hate a helix for lots of reasons, and consider them to be a necessary evil for multi-deck designs. A nolix design is vastly preferred if you can make it work. Only do a helix as a last resort if it gets your layout to fit, but if you can use a nolix, do it!

[jamnest]

This is my first post, boys, so take it easy on me.

We're in the process of creating an HO layout in a 20x30 room with very high ceilings. I've been trying to read all of the "interesting" general posts from oldest to newest to help me get back into this after a long hiatus. I'm up to Page 1528. I haven't seen this question addressed yet, so I apologize if it has been in the four years between Page 1528 and Page 1. (Searching "Helix" didn't give me an answer either.)

We're using the Atlas program for the general track design. I like to think of the general design as a three-level amoeba. We've considered a basic helix hidden by a mountain for getting from level to level. But I see all of that open wall between levels - and even above - and think: Instead of hiding the trains, why not run narrow mainlines around the circumference of the room like a full-room helix. On the days when I'm "in the train mood", but not into a full operating session, I find that just watching the trains go around is memorizing, relaxing, and even therapeutic.
Any thoughts?

Thanks,

I agree with watching trains go around is relaxing and therapeutic as well.  In fact, it's my favorite part of the hobby.  I've always wanted a whole room full of track so I could sit back and wait 10 minutes for my train to go past the same spot twice.  Good luck on the helix issue.  

I am working on an around the walls shelf layout in my basement.  The layout will be double deck with a Nolix in the visable part of the layout for trains to climb between decks.  I will be adding a hidden helix which will not be used in operating sessions so I can just run trains.

JIM

[gandydancer19]

Jeeze, a full room helix, or whatever. What an idea. Now I am going to have to rethink the branch line up to my upper level coal mine. Thanks for your post.

Elmer.

[Anonymous]

I love this forum!  I thought this was a crazy idea - then I find out it's already been done.  That's a good thing.  Who'd a thunk it?  Oh, to have had you guys around when I first got started back in the BC (before computer) years of my teens.

Thanks for all of the input!  Looks like I have some homework to do.  I appreciate the tips and advice that point me in the right direction.

Thanks for the invite to Charlotte, Phoebe.  Don't you guys have a dirt track or something down there? :-)  We travel a lot by RV.  Sounds like a road trip!

[Phoebe Vet]

You need to change it to dale88chevyss.

Look me up if you're ever in Charlotte and I'll take you to his shop.

Now back to trains.  I was at a train show recently where a diorama had a NASCAR track complete with about 20 HO scale (1/87) race cars.  Most of the cars you see are 1/64.

[dale8chevyss]

This is my first post, boys, so take it easy on me.

We're in the process of creating an HO layout in a 20x30 room with very high ceilings. I've been trying to read all of the "interesting" general posts from oldest to newest to help me get back into this after a long hiatus. I'm up to Page 1528. I haven't seen this question addressed yet, so I apologize if it has been in the four years between Page 1528 and Page 1. (Searching "Helix" didn't give me an answer either.)

We're using the Atlas program for the general track design. I like to think of the general design as a three-level amoeba. We've considered a basic helix hidden by a mountain for getting from level to level. But I see all of that open wall between levels - and even above - and think: Instead of hiding the trains, why not run narrow mainlines around the circumference of the room like a full-room helix. On the days when I'm "in the train mood", but not into a full operating session, I find that just watching the trains go around is memorizing, relaxing, and even therapeutic.
Any thoughts?

Thanks,

 

I agree with watching trains go around is relaxing and therapeutic as well.  In fact, it's my favorite part of the hobby.  I've always wanted a whole room full of track so I could sit back and wait 10 minutes for my train to go past the same spot twice.  Good luck on the helix issue.  

[tomikawaTT]

  Welcome back to the worlds greatest hobby. 

Looking at this from a prototype perspective, welcome to Tehachapi!  While not exactly an around-the-wall design, the monster layout in San Diego's Balboa Park is exactly what you describe - a long, continuous grade, with that famous one turn loop in the middle.

In the layout he described in, "To Hardscrabble, the Hard Way," (The Classic Layout Designs of John Armstrong, Kalpubco) John Armstrong described a track plan that climbed onto an upper level by using a continuous grade.  Granted that the design is based on Colorado narrow-gauge practice, but he was working with much less space than you have. 

My own prototype is the same sort of railroad, so the visible part of the mainline on my layout climbs considerably from the Harukawa bridge to the engine change station at the summit.  Not multi-level, though.  At least, the present plan is for only the top level to be visible.  I do have a LOT of staging yards on the lower levels, and one place where there are three not-directly-connected levels of hidden track stacked under the mountain my mining line is climbing.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[GMTRacing]

a no-lix it is and it works well. I have a 2% grade and only a foot or so between levels due to a small room and a low basement ceiling but it beats the pants off the collapsed cake of a helix I had on my previous layout. Having said that, much of the nolix (or incline) is hidden behind buildings or backdrop. If you do a couple of preliminary track plans, you may get a better idea of what will work for you.    J.R.

[pcarrell]

A No-lix is what you're describing, and they work quite well.  The biggest thing to remember with them is that all of your sidings, yards, and so forth still need to be level, so there's room taken up by that transition.  If you don't make them level though, your cars roll away!

Oh, and Welcome to the forum!

[tgindy]

One way to do a "nolix" is to incorporate dogbones into your plan where the mainline, the "same" track, will also occassionally overlap when sufficient height has been gained.  Another way would be to use "spirals" along the way.

[Flashwave]

I was thinking that the entire levels would be the hill. All those work too. Remeber, you need about 18 to 24 inches clearenc ebetween levles. Also, for a change, Might I suggest taking a look into the Tehachapi Loop? It'a protoype Helix on ex-SP and ATSF shared trackage that isn't hidden. The mainline crosses over and trains may very wells over their caboose.

[alfadawg01]

Bill Darnaby's Maumee Route is exactly what you describe....a full-room, around the walls and a penninsula helix.  Check the MR index for articles about it.  If you can find it, the 1995 edition of Model Railroad Planning had an article on Darnaby's design concept.

[NeO6874]

I think that's often referred to as a "no-lix".

 

It is a fairly straightforward procedure to do, although I have not done it mysel.  I believe it uses the room in a manner as you have said with branchlines used to get trains from one level to the other (ie the mainline generally stays on the "ground" of a level, and you have a (mostly hidden) branch going up).

[Anonymous]

This is my first post, boys, so take it easy on me.

We're in the process of creating an HO layout in a 20x30 room with very high ceilings. I've been trying to read all of the "interesting" general posts from oldest to newest to help me get back into this after a long hiatus. I'm up to Page 1528. I haven't seen this question addressed yet, so I apologize if it has been in the four years between Page 1528 and Page 1. (Searching "Helix" didn't give me an answer either.)

We're using the Atlas program for the general track design. I like to think of the general design as a three-level amoeba. We've considered a basic helix hidden by a mountain for getting from level to level. But I see all of that open wall between levels - and even above - and think: Instead of hiding the trains, why not run narrow mainlines around the circumference of the room like a full-room helix. On the days when I'm "in the train mood", but not into a full operating session, I find that just watching the trains go around is memorizing, relaxing, and even therapeutic.
Any thoughts?

Thanks,