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0-6-0: Expand elec p/u?

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  • Member since
    November 2002
  • From: Colorado
  • 4,075 posts
Posted by fwright on Thursday, March 6, 2008 1:07 PM
 Wayzata Modeler wrote:

  Thanks Chuck - I will have to ponder that one.  I notice that the electrical sweeps to the two axels are only on one side.  Seems to me that it would make sense to have sweeps on both sides to the axel to provide the best opportunity for a complete circuit.

BTW - I am running on DC, not DCC but I dont think that really makes any difference to this issue.

I strongly suspect that the reason there are only pickups on one side is that the motor gets the other rail power through the wheels and the frame.  If this is correct, you will see only one brush on the motor has a wire(s) attached, and that those wire(s) go to the 2 pickups.  The exact same scheme was used in the 0-4-0T, which is why only 2 left side wheels have pickups and not 3.  The left side drivers are either insulated at the rim or the hub - the current split frame scheme for locomotives was not known or used in the days of Mantua.  The pickups should be bearing against the driver rims or hub, but not the actual axle.  If what I'm saying is not correct, then I have no clue as to what I'm talking about.  Just call me stupid in that case.  Dunce [D)]

There are 2 problem areas with pickup in this type of locomotive.

1) The surfaces of the frame side pickup (right side drivers are not insulated from axle) get oxidized and don't conduct as well as they should.  Brass surfaces (such as the bearings) are notorious for this, but it can happen to the zinc die cast metal parts as well.  Cleaning these surfaces cures this problem, and just the slightest touch of No-Ox can help keep the oxidation at bay.

You can also add wipers and wires to directly connect the grounded motor brush to the wipers on the right rail, bypassing the through-the-frame connection.  These wipers can be directly mounted to the locomotive frame.

2) Add (as you desire) a wiper to the third driver.  The wiper and it's wire must be insulated from the locomotive frame and metal surfaces - no metal screws to mount tabs, etc!  Then attach the wire to the same place as the other two wipers connect.

Sliding rail wipers are actually better than driver wheel wipers, but tend to be more visible, and add some (hopefully very little if adjusted correctly) drag.

my thoughts, your choices

Fred W

PS:  If you ever do convert the little beauty to DCC, you will have to isolate both motor brushes from the locomotive frame.  But that's a story for another day. 

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Central Illinois
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Posted by ICRR1964 on Wednesday, March 5, 2008 2:35 PM
Oops! Forgot about it being a saddle tanker. But adding a pickup will help allot though.
  • Member since
    April 2007
  • 93 posts
Posted by Wayzata Modeler on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 9:49 PM

 

  Thanks Chuck - I will have to ponder that one.  I notice that the electrical sweeps to the two axels are only on one side.  Seems to me that it would make sense to have sweeps on both sides to the axel to provide the best opportunity for a complete circuit.

 

BTW - I am running on DC, not DCC but I dont think that really makes any difference to this issue.

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Southwest US
  • 12,914 posts
Posted by tomikawaTT on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 9:02 PM

A slider for rail power pickup is a little phosphor bronze (preferably) finger, insulated from the locomotive frame, that rides the rail rather than the tread or flange back of a wheel.  Typically, the slider is turned up at both sides and both ends, to pass easily over irregularities in the rails.

If your Mantua has the typical thick retainer plate over the drivers, you could fabricate a non-conductive replacement and mount sliders on that, each wired to the DCC input in parallel with the wheel power input from the same rail.  Since I don't have your specific loco, or any knowledge of your skills and/or available tools, I can't get any more detailed than that.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • 93 posts
Posted by Wayzata Modeler on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 8:26 PM

 

  Well,  I used a jewelers file on most of the frogs, solved the problem on one or two, but most no solution.  Soooo - Chuck,  talk to me about "sliders".  Do you have a photo or tutorial you can show me?

  Thanks! 

P.S. - I think my quality of trackwork and insul frogs dictate that maybe a 0-8-0 might have to be my switcher.  I have a 2-8-0 consolidation and a 4-6-4  that run just great.

  • Member since
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  • From: Vancouver Island, BC
  • 23,330 posts
Posted by selector on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 7:38 PM

Oops....I missed the part about the saddle tank entirely...rather critical information, too.

Still, the same thing applies...use copper centering springs and feed a wire up into the boiler.

  • Member since
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  • From: Southwest US
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Posted by tomikawaTT on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 7:35 PM

If you only have one short-wheelbase loco, you might consider adding sliders in front of and behind the drivers.  There's no Law of Model Railroading that says that you are only allowed to pick up power through the wheels!

If, OTOH, the first 0-6-0T is the beginning of a trend, that may not be the best way to fly.  With my extensive roster of 0-4-0T, 0-6-0T and short pickup MU cars (plus one 2-6-4T that only picks up one rail from the under-bunker trailing truck) I have no choice but to use live frogs.  That doesn't bother me, but may be a problem for the electrically challenged.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • 93 posts
Posted by Wayzata Modeler on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 7:28 PM

 

John is right - no tender.  I will see if filing down the frogs helps.  Otherwise, will try some sort of power pick method off the third axels. 

 

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 7:10 PM

Saddle Tank = no tender.

I have the Spectrum 0-6-0 saddle and it will span the dead frogs on Atlas # 6 turnouts but just barely.  So if you find a way to pick-up from the third axle you should be in business.

One word of warning though, a lot of Atlas turnouts have high frogs.  That is, the frog is just a fraction higher than the adjoining rails.  With only a pick-up on the drivers, an 0-6-0T will rise on the frog and loose contact.  You have to file the frogs down so that the drivers do not rise off the adjoining rails.

Good luck,
-John

p.s. An 0-6-0T is a great test engine.  If it does not loose contact anywhere then you know everything else will run fine.

  • Member since
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  • From: Central Illinois
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Posted by ICRR1964 on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 6:55 PM
I think Selector is right, using the tender and adding pickups to it will make it run throught the frogs better. I took an older IHC that freind gave me to make it run better and adding pickups to the tender was the first thing I did. It used the wheels on the loco to pickup power, but had problems in the frogs. After adding pickups to the tender made it run through them much better.
  • Member since
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  • From: Vancouver Island, BC
  • 23,330 posts
Posted by selector on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 6:45 PM

Harold Minkwitz has done a mod of a tender in which he used, I believe it was, the copper spring liners for Kadee coupler boxes and fashioned pickups using those.  I'll see if I can find it, but his site is something like pacificscoastairliner.  Give me a minute.

Back..this should be it.

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/1879/locomotives/wipers/

 

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • 93 posts
0-6-0: Expand elec p/u?
Posted by Wayzata Modeler on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 6:28 PM

 

Forgive me, I am typing with a bandage middle finger after slicing it open with a serrated knife while cutting foam for new scenery - but thats not the basis of my question

Also forgive me, as since almost everything under the MR sun has been asked and discussed over the years of this forum,  I am sure this question has been asked somewhere in time:

Just got a Mantura 0-6-0 saddle tank switcher.   Due to its small and short wheel base, its stalls at almost every frog.  (Atlas Custom or Peco -  all insul-frogs).  Note electrical p/u is limited to only two axels.  Wondering if it possible to somehow expand the electrical p/u to all three axels in an attempt to allow a long enough wheel base to span the frogs.

Thank you gentlemen (and possible ladies). 

 

 

 

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