dehusman wrote: tomikawaTT wrote: Also, you aren't locked into a rigid frog geometry, so your trackwork can be laid with a much smoother flow - which greatly improves appearance and operations.That is a hotly debated subject in some quarters. People have gotten downright testy over the suggestion of building custom frog numbers, some people are adamant about using standard switch alignments. I tend to use standard switch alignments and sizes, but customize them when the need arises.Dave H.
tomikawaTT wrote: Also, you aren't locked into a rigid frog geometry, so your trackwork can be laid with a much smoother flow - which greatly improves appearance and operations.
That is a hotly debated subject in some quarters. People have gotten downright testy over the suggestion of building custom frog numbers, some people are adamant about using standard switch alignments. I tend to use standard switch alignments and sizes, but customize them when the need arises.
Dave H.
Anyone who wants to get adamant about any practice is welcome to follow their own standards while building their own layouts. They are NOT welcome to question MY use of methods that don't produce the results called for by THEIR standards. I have watched prototype tracklayers "customize" allegedly-standard parts (with a torch) to achieve the results the engineering department desired. I have also admired the smooth flow of trackwork around some very busy passenger stations - probably laid with double-digit frogs and radii that are only a dream for modelers. I am much more interested in reproducing the result than I am in copying the parts list.
If any visitor to the TTT wants to get adamant - my layout space has a door. They will be advised to use it as an exit. Since it's my layout, I abide by the golden rule - I've spent the gold, I make the rules.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - my way)
dehusman wrote:That is a hotly debated subject in some quarters. People have gotten downright testy over the suggestion of building custom frog numbers, some people are adamant about using standard switch alignments. I tend to use standard switch alignments and sizes, but customize them when the need arises.Dave H.
I can't see the point when the prototype seldom uses less than a #7 (and then only for spurs serving industries), and I'll seldom use more than something approximating a #6 (and then only when the main takes the curved route). Now, if you are actually using nothing less than #7s, it makes sense to use the scaled templates.
just my thoughts
Fred W
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman wrote: Once you learn how to build a turnout without jigs, it doesn't matter what rail you use, you can get the same results. Code 40 or code 100.Dave H.
Once you learn how to build a turnout without jigs, it doesn't matter what rail you use, you can get the same results. Code 40 or code 100.
Also, you aren't locked into a rigid frog geometry, so your trackwork can be laid with a much smoother flow - which greatly improves appearance and operations.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - on hand-laid specialwork)
Hey mikesmowers, regarding one of your original questions about using Atlas flextrack to build turnouts, my answer is 'yes'. Same as you, I used some old, never to be used again code 100 flex and built several turnouts, #7 and up. I'm not sure the code 100 rail could be used for anything less than a #7. As a note, I didn' use the Fastrack jigs or anything else pre-fab- these were built from scratch using an old MR article from the early 90's I think....cutting my own ties, soldering my own frog, using a PC board throw bar and spiking them in place. They've held up pretty well to date.
mvh/Jax, FL
For all you looking for hand-laid track supplies, I would reccomend Becker's Model Railroad Supply. His website is not exactly "state of the art" and the discount schedule can be a little hard to understand, but once you figure that out I've found they have the best prices (and availability) on ME rail and ties. This is especially true if you can afford to buy several packages at once if you will need that much rail.
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/wcbecker/bmrshome.htm
Also - as for making "quality" turnouts... Just keep going! My first ones were pretty rough, but after a few you pick up a knack and they really start looking GREAT. They also run excellent and you will be very happy with their performance. No one mentioned a standard track gauge yet, I hope that is because everyone just assumes this is a required tool for this work and worth using it often!
Cheers,
Bryan
mikesmowers wrote: Yea, I didn't cut that one. I cut the first one with my Dremmel tool and one of those thin cut off wheels that break very easily, then my dremmel tool died. Thanks anyway. Mike
The first couple I did I used a dremel. The I got a jeweler's saw. It takes a little longer, but the gap is much smaller, and there's accidental nicks in the rails you don't mean to cut! (In N scale everything is really close together!) Try it, I think you'll like it!
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Neutrino wrote: Walthers part # 255-17070 is code 70 non-weathered, part # 255-17083 is non-weathered code 83 and they are both shown to be in stock. You get 33 pieces, 3' long.
Walthers part # 255-17070 is code 70 non-weathered, part # 255-17083 is non-weathered code 83 and they are both shown to be in stock. You get 33 pieces, 3' long.
Thanks for that link. Getting stuff here to Sweden is one of the things putting me on hold as to ordering. So I have a question. Are their any ties available from Walthers so that I can get everything but the jig from Walthers?(Needed for future purchases)
Magnus
I agree, the Fast Tracks jig-built turnouts are the Rolls of the turnout market. The one glaring item that is missing from Fast Tracks turnouts is tie plate and spike head detail.
I have found you can use Central Valley Turnout tie strips (available for $4 each) as a kind of poor man's jig and replace a few of the plastic ties with PC ties. The resulting turnout is as excellent of a performer as the Fast Tracks turnouts, but has great tie plate and spike head detail as well! Here's a photo from my web site of a turnout built this way:
(Click image for a larger view)
I cover how to build these turnouts step-by-step on my web site.
Even though this method does not use the full Fast Tracks turnout jig, it uses a lot of their methods and I'm a firm believer in their point/frog filing and soldering tools. They are a huge time saver and worth every penny if you have a lot of turnouts to build.
If you are put off by the $100+ price of the Fast Tracks aluminum jigs and you are modeling in HO, consider using the CVT tie kits as a kind of poor man's jig. At $4 each, the ties come with self-gauging rail slots, which makes them work almost as well as the Fast Tracks jigs.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
Hi from Belgium,
Well I use Fast Track jig since more than one year in Nscale code 55.
As you think tolerances are very thight in Nscale; so in the beginning I have some trouble with the first build turnouts.
First You need to use ME track exclusively because the jig are milled for this type of track.
I have the same problems with the points like you in the beginning; the solution was just to find the good place to fit the rail in the filling point jig.
I cut just a millimeter to the end of the filling track to use only good sturdy track, check the CD that Tim provide with the jig kit where it show it very precisely.
It's a good idea to see the CD two or three times to see all the small building methods.
I prefer to use rosin flux to avoid acid future problems. Sand the pc ties and wash the rail before soldering; wash your and hands too. and work with clean tools. Push the rail strongly on the pc ties in the jig, I use heavy blocs of steel to maintain the rail in the jig when soldering
After a few mistakes I now build a turnout in 40 minutes ready to install and beleive me they are the "Rolls" of aviable turnouts on the market.
Marc
Walthers is your best source for rail. Shipping it from Canada is way too expensive. At least from Walthers it comes in a round tube rather than the easily bent triangular box from Canada. The only time I ordered it from there it was bent quite a bit and I had to get creative with straightening and cutting.
Thanks for all the replies and help. I did get the second one built this afternoon and it came out much better. I tried using the flex track and I didn't like the way it worked so I went back to the ME that was supplied. Here is a pic I took, you can't tell much about them but here it is anyway, the top one is the second one.
I think my problem with the points are the way I am using the point filing tool, I don't know if I am getting the rail in to far or not far enough. I did use a bench top sander to take a little more off the points after I removed it from the filing tool (a sharper angle) and it seemed to work very well. I haven't had any trouble with the frogs so far, just lucky I guess. After I have finished building the turnout I use a truck to ''test'' the turnout. A truck with metal wheels will work great and roll smooth thru the points and the frog. A truck with plastic wheels (which I do not use) will have a bump at the frog, I think the plastic wheels are out of gauge.
I will continue to build them with the ME track and I will get it right and have some good turnouts, the ones I have built already seem to be better than the Atlas I have on the current layout. I have a certain Atlas turnout that gives a lot of problems and it is in a place where I think I can replace it with one that I have built and we will see how it does with actual trains on it.
Another question; What kind of turnout control will work with these, most any I would guess.
I really appriciate all the hepl. Mike
Hi, Mike,
The rail I've been using for my to-be-hidden trackwork is all Atlas Code 100, either from damaged flex or pieces salvaged from yard-sale snap-track sections. The only problem with using jigs (which I don't) is that the Atlas railhead is noticeably wider than the Cactus Brass (Shinohara's supplier) rail I still have. If the jig is sized for narrow railheads, the wider railhead won't fit.
The cure for curling point ends is to round them into something that looks like the end of a butter knife. Take a look at some prototype switch points - that's where I got my inspiration.
Good luck, and welcome to the world of roll-your-own specialwork.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with hand-laid specialwork)
ford86 wrote: mikesmowers wrote: Just wanted to see if anyone has tried using Atlas flex track before. Thanks, MikeAtlas wont fit in the jig, its a bit to wide on the bottom to seat in the jig then again I was building code 83 HO turnouts. As for the points did you file down the inside base of the outside rails?
mikesmowers wrote: Just wanted to see if anyone has tried using Atlas flex track before. Thanks, Mike
Just wanted to see if anyone has tried using Atlas flex track before. Thanks, Mike
Atlas wont fit in the jig, its a bit to wide on the bottom to seat in the jig then again I was building code 83 HO turnouts.
As for the points did you file down the inside base of the outside rails?
The standard Fast Track rail is ME. On special order, Fast Tracks made jigs for me that do work with Atlas code 83 rail. Atlas code 83 rail cannot be purchased except as flex track then you strip the rail off the ties.
Attempting to mix ME rail and Atlas Flex track can be done, however every joint is a special transition joiner as neither the Atlas nor the ME trail joiner is a plug and play. One typically winds up soldering these joings.
I have a number of entries on this topic on my blog.
Joe Daddy
I use the rail from flextrack for making turnouts. however I don`t use the fast tracks system so it will depend on the fit of the rail in the jig as to whether you will be able to use it.
I find it it a lot cheaper to use flextrack for my rail supplies as it takes less than 1 length to make a turnout and the price of rail over here in oz is fairly expensive and you have to buy too much for my needs.
I also use the cheapest flex I can find.
Dave, I don't honestly know who provided the rail stock I purchases separately from my LHS, but it did not like sitting in the grooves machines by Tim Warris' supplier. It meant that I had the occasional problem keeping the foot of the rail tight and flat against the ties, wherever they were in the jig. Not unexpectedly, that led, in turn, to some difficulty soldering.
Mike, find on both the template (I seem to recall) and on the jig a space marked for the very point tip to be housed. It has a shallow curved spot shadowed next to the stock rail. First mark goes there. Then, your second mark goes where the point rail visibly leaves contact with the stock rail per either the template or the jig. Place a finished point in position, plus the stock rail, and you can get a better sense where you can stop the grinding.
Further, as Tim instructs, you don't need to file everything away as you are doing nearest the point tip. Further up toward the frog you can grind less and less, including no beveled underbelly, until about two full inches closer to the frog you are only grinding some of the foot away. Think of something like half of a very long teardrop shape, split right down the long axis. The widest bulge is nearest the points, included grinding away a bevel of sorts (not too much!!!), and the longest part stretches back toward the frog so that, by 1.5 inches or so you are only grinding away some of the foot. No more is necessary.
One other thing: make darned good and sure your gaurds and wings are in exact position so that they support the tires as they encounter the gap between wing heel and frog point. Tim points out how this is so important to smooth running. So, make sure the foot is flat in the short grooves provided for the guards and wings so that the do their jobs.
Finally, one thing you really don't want to get wrong is the frog point, itself. For all that they appear very straighforward, I found them difficult to handle and to solder in place so that they protruded sufficiently into the gap without letting the tires slip into it, or worse, fouling the flange of a traversing wheel. For me, with all the emphasis that Tim puts on the benefit of this type of turnout frog, it was the hardest part of the turnout for me. Getting the points situated and soldered correctly on the throwbar so that no solder beaded up and undid the use of all that stock rail grinding was a cinch by comparison.
-Crandell
I'd snip off a small piece and see if it seats in the jig. I'm almost positive that it will not fit. My Fast-Track jigs are for Micro-Scale code 55- 100 rail and a piece of Atlas code 83 is too wide to seat completly down in the jig.
Check your order and it should tell you what rail it's made for. The stock # of your jig can be found on-line and it will tell you in the specs.
Depends if the rail width will fit in the jigs. Atlas flextrack is very wide. I have no idea how it actually will fit, since I don't handlay with Fast Track jigs.
let me say more about the flex track I am planning to use, it is no longer useable to run trains on. a lot of the ties are loose from the track and it is something I normally would throw away, but being a model RR'er I throw nothing away!
Thanks for the advice, I did curve the track by hand before laying it in the jig, but I probley didn't get the points right, they were as thin as tissue paper on the ends and are wanting to ''curl'' around. The first turnout I made will more than likely be useable especially if I put it in a yard. I will save the best ones for the mainline where the trains will be running faster and longer.
Selector, thanks for the input on where I should grind off the bottom of the rail. I had some trouble in that area. I didn't realize they were marked on the templets. I did print out 5 copies of the templets for reference. There are no marks for them on the jig itself and I was trying to guess at it from the instructions. I did find my pointed tip for the soldering iron, I will try that and if it dies not work good for me I may either file a small flat on it or use the larger (about 1/4'' wide) tip.
I guess the workshop is probley warm by now and I have had my nap so I am off to tackle turnout #2. Thanks again. Mike
Mike, the template that you can print, and the jig themselves, have an indicator as to where you should be grinding back the foot of the stock rails so that the points will lie cleanly against them. I used an electric stone grinder, a bench grinder in other words, and carefully pressed the base of the rail, previously marked at each end of the are to be ground with a permanent fine tipped marker, and made several light and controlled swipes at the stone. The secret is to make very sure that not only is all the foot on the one side of the stock rail ground away, but also a further weeeee bit of beveling toward the rest of the rail foot. Then, if you have finished the point tip to a proper dimension using the jig for that purpose, the rest is just soldering.
As someone said to you in your other recent thread, take the time to bend the stock rails and points rails into their proper curvatures so that they don't spring out of their groove on the big aluminum turnout jig. If you leave too much spring because the curvature isn't close enough, it tends to make the rail twist, and your solders won't work well, if at all. The bases of all rail pieces must lie flat and flush against each copper clad tie.
I agree that a finer, pencil-like, tip is easier to get in between close-set rails, but the trade-off for me is that you also don't get the quick heat transfer. So, a heavier, but flat tip can still be used with some practice.
Finally, I would just use all the rail stock I needed to start making good turnouts. I wouldn't take apart flex, but that is just me.
BigRusty wrote:Mike, Plain rail is a lot cheaper than destroying expensive flex track. It comes in 99 foot bundles from several sources.
WOW ! Thats a long bundle. How do they ship it, by rail ?
Empire under construction !
The early bird catches the worm.
But, the second mouse gets the cheese!
I tried my hand at building a turnout yesterday, it came out OK for a first time. The frog is pretty good although the points don't lay aginst the stock rail as well as I would like, especially on the curved track. I am planning on trying another one this afternoon. I am thinking on trying to use some used Atlas flex track that I have removed the ties and cleaned the ballast and weathering off of. I figure this would give me some practice without using up my good track that came with the set. Has anyone ever tried this? Will it work?
I think my biggest problem with the first one was I need to hone my soldering skills some. I printed the instructions and put them in a loose leaf notebook so I could take it step by step. I also need to get a finer point for my soldering iron, I may have one somewhere, I will look around before I start the second one.