Paul3 wrote: CTValleyRR,The NMRA doesn't "enforce" anything. It's not like they are a national police force that's going to arrest, fine or seize manufacturers that fail to produce models up to NMRA Standards and Recommended Practices. What they have are written Standards and RP's that manufacturers can choose to follow or ignore. If a manufacturer decides to follow the NMRA Standards and RP's, and if they submit the model to the NMRA for inspection, they can then label their product with the NMRA Conformance and Inspection logo (the C&I "football") that states that this product conforms to all applicable NMRA Standards and RP's. This is usually done as a mere sales tool, and has no relation to actual quality or fidelity to the prototype.My favorite example is that Bachmann Spectrum diesels have the NMRA C&I "football" while Kato does not. Which would you rather have?Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
CTValleyRR,The NMRA doesn't "enforce" anything. It's not like they are a national police force that's going to arrest, fine or seize manufacturers that fail to produce models up to NMRA Standards and Recommended Practices. What they have are written Standards and RP's that manufacturers can choose to follow or ignore. If a manufacturer decides to follow the NMRA Standards and RP's, and if they submit the model to the NMRA for inspection, they can then label their product with the NMRA Conformance and Inspection logo (the C&I "football") that states that this product conforms to all applicable NMRA Standards and RP's. This is usually done as a mere sales tool, and has no relation to actual quality or fidelity to the prototype.
My favorite example is that Bachmann Spectrum diesels have the NMRA C&I "football" while Kato does not. Which would you rather have?Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Paul,
I apologize for my poor word choice. Not intending to engage in a legal debate, I wasn't particularly concerned with the implications of that word.
I am well aware the industry standards aren't "enforced" in the legal sense by the standards board. They're enforced by the market. Fidelity to the prototype outside of the actual scale is a matter of personal preference. Personally, I roll my eyes everytime I see someone say something like "the space between the drivers is 6 scale inches too short (which works out, in HO scale, to about .006 inches). That difference doesn't destroy the illusion of reality for a lot of us. Again, don't go all picky on me. If it matters to you, feel free to enforce it on your own layout. So, it's marketing, but if a company gains a reputation for ignoring the standards or fraudulently using logos and seals, there is a whole range of market and legal consequences which make it bad business practice to do so, hence the "enforcement". To further your example, Kato doesn't submit their products to the NRMA for certification, so they're not able to use the seal. But if Kato consistently manufactured models that were grossly inaccurate, how long would they stay in business, no matter how well their products performed?
I'm talking about things like buildings on which the doors are only 3/4" high, when a scale 8' doorway would be about 1-1/8 inches high. So if you put a figure which is approximately 7/8" of an inch high (and again, I'm doing all this in my head, without examples handy, so don't nitpick the calculations), it just looks wrong. On the other hand, if the door is 1-3/32 rather than a full 1-1/8, most people don't notice. The supposed HO scale buildings I referred to in an earlier post had an "equipment shed" with a bay door that was about 6 scale feet high.
And, as to which I would rather have on MY layout: The Bachmann Spectrum(s), because it provides a much better cost:benefit ratio for MY purposes. Personally, I'd rather have 3 pretty good locos than 1 great one. But that's only my opinion.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
So I guess the moral of the story is that, while the NMRA is enforcing standards for track, locos, and rolling stock, it's really caveat emptor for anything else marked "HO". Some manufacturers -- even modern ones -- apparently treat the 1:87 as an approximation.
This is true even within a company. My son has several sets of HO toy soldiers manufactured by Airfix. Some sets are slightly larger than others. Not enough to be jarring, but it's noticable.
I've had a couple of model kits that turned out to be slightly out of scale (perhaps for use in forced perspective?), even though they were clearly labelled "HO". Forced a couple of quick redesigns to move the models away from their slightly larger cousins. Having done that, they look pretty good.
[edited for spelling]
I have the same trouble with a lot of accessories -- buckets the size of bathtubs, shovels with flagpoles for handles.
The other day, I was adding eavestroughs to a small building so I went to my parts boxes. The Rix eavestroughs looked right but the Micro Engineering (!) eavestroughs could have doubled as water slides!
I model HO but have on occasion used (supposedly) N scale items simply because they looked more "right."
One trick I have found that works well is to find an accurate HO scale figure of an upright standing 6 ft. tall man.
Just place any suspect items next to the figure to see if they feel right.
One caveat: be a keen observer of reality. Don't let your own vague recollections or misperceptions mislead you.
Craig
DMW
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
The Walthers catalog is a good place to check out vehicles. I would say that of the brands shown there, if they are labeled 1/87 or H0, then they are pretty accurate.. Wiking (pronounced Viking), Herpa, Busch, Boley, Concor, Mini Metals, Atlas, Kibri, Lonestar, Ricko, Trident, Woodland Scenics, Athearn and Atlas are all 1/87 scale vehicles.
As someone else said, perception can be an issue, we're used to seeing vehicles 1 to 1 and from a few feet away as opposed to our model vehicles which we view from 50 to 100 scale feet away.
Use the Walthers catalog for reference, but shop either at a local hobby shop or online retailer. Walthers is one of our main MR distributors, so their prices are not discounted except for special sales. Welcome to the hobby!
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
Don't forget that you can use a forced perspective in placing the cars of different sizes that you have. However, when placing them all in a row, then they do need to be the same size as you pointed out.
You can do the same with buildings, trees, and people. Larger in front, smaller in back. That is what I do on my layout. (Forced perspective, for those that don't know, is by placing smaller objects at the back of a scene and larger one in front, your eye thinks that the scenes depth is greater because smaller objects are always farther away.)
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Part of the problem is that some manufacturers are still flogging products that they have been selling for years, and the tooling was done when people accepted out of scale vehicles -- we were just grateful for vehicles. Then there is the sneaky advertising such as a line of vehicles that IHC offered where the ad copy said "looks great on HO layouts" -- not really claiming they were HO (and they weren't! -- they are oversized).
Dave Nelson
- Luke
Modeling the Southern Pacific in the 1960's-1980's
In the olden days this used to be true, cheaper plastic vehicles would be a bit out of scale as compared to Wiking & Herpa
But the latest wave of high-detailed plastic vehicles (such as Atlas, Athearn) and die-cast (Model Power, Malibu, CMW, and so-on) seem very close to scale dimensions - perhaps it is just perception?
Hmmm, perhaps the tires/suspension? Some model vehicles seem higher/jacked up than they should be in real life - tires/wheels out of scale?