I participate in a lot of different hobbies - model railroading, street rods, dollhouses, furniture making, and others. The one thing they all have in common is this debate: Who's serious and who isn't? My response is this - We do it for fun. Why does it matter how someone else does it? From my point of view, it doesn't matter. I urge those who are stuck in this mode to lighten up; in the grand scheme it is of microscopic importance.
Regarding collectors - I love you guys! You buy stuff and thus increase the size of the market so manufacturers make more stuff for all of us to enjoy. Collectors enhance our hobby; they don't diminish it. Here's to having good, clean, safe fun with model trains.
You do it your way, I'll do it mine. Let's have a cup of coffee and share our stories at the next train show (Thanksgiving Point, Utah 1/25-1/26)
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
You are doing what you enjoy, that keeps you enjoying the hobby, seems like you are doing exactly what hobbies are about.
Keep buying what you want, and doing whatever you like.
ICRR1964 wrote: Opinions can very from post to post in the forum. There are as stated by many different post and opinions thrown to the table here, some make allot of good sense. But personally the focus on "what" is a true MR is narrow on your veiws Dave, hey its your opinion though. What I think of your opinion is my choice though. Everyone does their own thing in MR, this is always a good debate to hash out here in the forum. Sharing ideas, thoughts, work and opinions is a great place to learn something new and exciting. There is such a wide range of the hobby to look at; collecting, operations, theme, settings, prototypical, freelance, and others. IMHO they are all MR's.
Opinions can very from post to post in the forum. There are as stated by many different post and opinions thrown to the table here, some make allot of good sense. But personally the focus on "what" is a true MR is narrow on your veiws Dave, hey its your opinion though. What I think of your opinion is my choice though.
Everyone does their own thing in MR, this is always a good debate to hash out here in the forum. Sharing ideas, thoughts, work and opinions is a great place to learn something new and exciting. There is such a wide range of the hobby to look at; collecting, operations, theme, settings, prototypical, freelance, and others. IMHO they are all MR's.
Agreed...
My view is quite narrow. And I'm OK with that!
I just wanted to make sure it was clear that I don't feel a layout has to be prototype-based to be, in my opinion, a true model railroad. To be fair, some people do believe that, and that's OK with me too.
And again, I want to be clear that I don't try to cram this belief down other's throats, and I don't criticize others for not matching my criteria. Every now and again, though, I get cornered for my brutally-honest opinion, in which case I give it.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
ICRR1964 wrote: IMHO I think Dave is wrong. There are allot of people who have build really nice looking and fuctional layouts with out some sort of theme or history. Freelance is another choice and requires allot of thinking and trial and error. Following an idea from a picture or what is part of history, sometimes is not what makes a MR happy. Dreaming up his own idea's can be allot of work.
IMHO I think Dave is wrong. There are allot of people who have build really nice looking and fuctional layouts with out some sort of theme or history. Freelance is another choice and requires allot of thinking and trial and error. Following an idea from a picture or what is part of history, sometimes is not what makes a MR happy. Dreaming up his own idea's can be allot of work.
Ah... I think you've read a few words into my post that weren't there. Maybe I needed to be more clear. I never ruled out freelancing. I said "theme," not "prototype." To mean the latter would make me a hypocrite; before I switched to PRR in N, I modeled a freelanced HO railroad I called the Johnstown & Broad Top Railroad. But it had a theme; it was based on the Huntingdon & Broad Top Mountain and East Broad Top RRs of central PA. My freelanced railroad was real enough to me; I had a fleet of hoppers I lettered with custom decals and a roster of very similar 2-8-0 locomotives to haul them. Even my structures had a unifying paint scheme. The "theme" was 1910's coal mining in the Broad Top coalfields in central PA.
And coming up with the "history" (and plotting the line on topo maps) was a big part of the fun!
Think about the great freelanced railroads... ...the V&O, the AM, the Utah Belt, and so on... ...and you see layouts each with a unifying theme that makes them seem like models of railroads and not just trains.
I have great respect for freelancers... ...who can come up with a convincing "could have been the real deal" railroads. That's still model railroading in my opinion. But even freelanced railroads, to be credible, need to have a theme. Otherwise, it's just trains IMHO.
My, I appreciate the thoughtfulness that has gone into many lengthy responses.
Another reason that I veered to the collecting side is that I learned as I went. I started off with one IHC 2-10-2 last Christmas. I picked up many very nice P2K diesels. I bought brand new beautiful P2K Heritage steamers. Found lots of Bachmann Spectrum for consists. Then I discovered Kato and its cousins from Atlas and Stewart. So for the last 6 months I have been collecting Kato almost exclusively.....but added two Heritage Big Boys and two more 2-10-2s. My collection is now about 40% P2K, 40% Kato, and 20% Bachmann Spectrum, in a 60-40 split of diesel and steam locos that could have operated late in the early 1950s. I can't really afford top lines like BLI ,and certainly not the brass...wish I could.
I must say, my real delight is installing decoders and sound. I have retired from an administrative job in the education system and find the "little learning" of electronics and shop skills necessary for hardwiring decoders and installing sound set up a lot of fun. That has meant a little collecting of modelling tools as well. Hope to get into airbrushing next.
But yes, the real delight, is in the learning. I am old enough to remember watching steam locos on the local line. And I find reading from these forums and from the Wikipedia info about my collection is a pleasant way to spend downtime.
There is some grey area that is being overlooked here. I have seen allot of "freelanced" layouts that are like works of art. For the people that do a small 12" by 12" scene and spend months working on it are works of art also. I always admire this work and effort these people come up with. Great MR's!
I am building a layout that is going to take years to finish, I myself have a very large area to do it in, some people do not have this option, and I understand their frustration. I have been in that situation years ago. So I spent my time building small scenes and a very small shelf model in HO. I would hate to think of the months I put into this shelf model.
Now we have a person who collects! Well he is not alone. We all collect MR items be it cars, loco's, buildings.... whatever! I have a vast aray of loco's, ranging from small switchers, brass, older items, out of production or defunk, new loco's, you name it. Yes I do collect, I just counted all my engines tonite and I stand at 127 total, freight cars I will estimate at around 180. Now lets move onto parts for cars and engines. Proto, Athearn old and new, Atlas old and new, AHM/Rivarrosi, Bachman/Spectrum, IHC, Kato, BLI, MDC and on and on. Some are brand new some are old stock, but again I collect them. you never know when you will need a part or someone else might.
I just talked a freind of mine into switching to N scale becuase of his limited space, he has quite a bit of HO items, but know place to build what he wants, he has collected for about 10 years on the HO items. Is He a MR???? Yes he is!
So what if you collect trains and cars. Are you happy doing this? This is your hobby and your choice, don't let some post that were left here try to influence you into thinking you are lesser and they are better. There are many different aspects of the hobby in MR, don't get frustrated . About what others think of your work or what you buy or own! MR is a fun hobby for me, but some people think that the word "debate" falls into post and questions all to often. They try and force their opinion on you hoping you will lash out at them or challenge their opinion. Which turns ugly then with locked post and hard feelings. Don't let the word "ignorance" bother you either. Sometime the word "ignorance" can be a double edged sword.
Money, space, and time play a real factor in the hobby for most, having the full sized basement, or building a garage with heat is something that allot of us want, but then again, we fall back into the money part again. Do what you can with what you have I say, do the best you can I say, and strive to do better. I'm pretty sure we are all trying to be a MR here, some just do it different than others. And just because they have a different opinion? Well their opinion really doesn't mean allot to me and allot of other members I think, just allot of hot air blowing from a hose.
Its easy to see you have a huge car lot so to speak and a small show room. If it works for you, well? Thats what counts then. Good luck with you dreams and model railroading.
Are Train Collectors also considered Model railroaders??? I say no, theyre just collectors but what is your opinion?
My, my my. Someone's got his shorts in a twist. What difference does it make to you if someone approaches the hobby differently? Who cares what someone else's approach to the hobby is as long as you're enjoying it your way? Who cares if someone else is a "collector"?
Andre
Wow! I went away for 24 hours and look what happened!
Thank you all for your responses. I appreciate all the viewpoints. It seems a topic that is kind of at the heart of the hobby for many.
Yes, of course I was fishing for some warm fuzzy feedback....but mostly I was fishing for the responses I got about the "realism" of having a mix of road name locos and rolling stock running across a lot of the country. I guess I could have asked more directly.
I like the notion of calling everything about the layout "Chicago"...can't lose geographically like that, I guess.
Yes, my passion is collecting. My original thinking was that, if I can't fill an entire basement with a monster layout as I dreamed of, I could go for variety and switch off lots and lots of locos in sets of 3 to 8 at a time of various road names. And that's what I do. I will probably create scenery for a midwest layout alright.
In the meantime I have found great display cases from Ikea. They have 9 glass shelves in each, most taking 3 locos for display...and a little light inside makes a great impression.
Ivanhen,
I always love a Christmas scene with trains
Your giving your grandson memories that will last forever. He will remember that 4x8 layout for the rest of his life.
Thanks Dave Vollmer and Joe Fugate for keeping things in perspective. The issue of "collectors vs. operators" or "modelers vs. buyers" will no sooner be settled here than the issues in the Middle East or Northern Ireland. People are passionate about what they like, and let's just leave it at that.
Personally, as irritating as it can be to have hyper prototype operations-oriented "hobby quality" forced down your throat, it's just as irritating to see people wallow in their own ignorance, and refusing to see the value of expanding one's own horizons, and insulting those of us who like to try a little harder.
For me, I built my layout based on a fairly specific scene, like Joe's, spanning a several year time frame. It gives me the flexibility to run some different types of equipment that might not pass through the eye of the needle for a proto purist. I also built my layout to tell a story, like Dave's. The prototype I selected basically had two jobs... move valuable freight across the Allegheny front faster and more efficiently than its competitors, and lugging coal out of the hollows of West Virginia to markets in the east, midwest, and around the globe.
The trains I purchase and run are players in that story. The layout is the stage on which the story is played out. I enjoy running a schedule of trains, but I also enjoy throwing a couple of switches to set up the continuous loop route and kicking back with the lights down low to watch 'em just run.
As for variety? Well, I chose Hagerstown, Maryland as my center of operations, so I get to buy locomotives representing the Reading, Norfolk and Western, Pennsylvania and Penn Central, and B&O as well as the Western Maryland. The Western Maryland alone had three paint schemes during the diesel era.
So, I encourage you to buy what you want and run it as you see fit, but don't feel like that's all there is to do. Maybe there's a particular road that interests you, and maybe it's just that cool paint scheme that attracts your eye.
Go on line, look it up. See what else that road was about. See if there isn't a story there waiting to be told in plaster and ground foam. Expand your model railroading experience, and don't be afraid to ask questions.
Oh, and that picture of a prototype modeler was completely inaccurate. This is the new look...
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Gerome,
Just call your layout Chicago and everything will be just fine!
Andies Candy wrote: lvanhen wrote:I too am a collector. My "layout" is only 4x8, and was done mainly for my grandson. I've been collecting since the early '60's, mostly Union Pacific. I also have the Bachmann De Witt Clintton, John Bull, & The Prussia, because they are neat! I have The Jupiter and the 119, a Challenger, Veranda Turbine, F3's, GP & SD everythings, and the newest AC whatevers. My grandson likes certain colors, so we have a Conrail, a SantaFe, a Fox River Valley, a Kaiser Steel, an AMT F59P, and a Caltrain! If the "dream layout" ever comes to be, the towns will be set up as time periods, from the wild west to modern. I also have a ton of MOW stuff, some of which is UP fantasy (Armor Yellow Crane by Bachmann) and a dozen+ snow plows!! It's my railroad, and I'll run it the way I want!! Now why do you spend so much time and money into buying locos you will more than likely ever use and have a cheap little 4x8 layout? Isnt it way past time to invest into a real layout since you have been "collecting" since the 60's? Whats the fun in having hundreds of locos in boxes in a bigger box? Just to say "Oh I have that one, or I have a few of those" You have a lot of it all but how much of it do you "play" with? I bet they all stay in a box just waiting for you to pass away and then go to some people that will USE them, not just collect them. It brings the question to mindAre Train Collectors also considered Model railroaders??? I say no, theyre just collectors but what is your opinion?
lvanhen wrote:I too am a collector. My "layout" is only 4x8, and was done mainly for my grandson. I've been collecting since the early '60's, mostly Union Pacific. I also have the Bachmann De Witt Clintton, John Bull, & The Prussia, because they are neat! I have The Jupiter and the 119, a Challenger, Veranda Turbine, F3's, GP & SD everythings, and the newest AC whatevers. My grandson likes certain colors, so we have a Conrail, a SantaFe, a Fox River Valley, a Kaiser Steel, an AMT F59P, and a Caltrain! If the "dream layout" ever comes to be, the towns will be set up as time periods, from the wild west to modern. I also have a ton of MOW stuff, some of which is UP fantasy (Armor Yellow Crane by Bachmann) and a dozen+ snow plows!! It's my railroad, and I'll run it the way I want!!
Now why do you spend so much time and money into buying locos you will more than likely ever use and have a cheap little 4x8 layout? Isnt it way past time to invest into a real layout since you have been "collecting" since the 60's? Whats the fun in having hundreds of locos in boxes in a bigger box? Just to say "Oh I have that one, or I have a few of those" You have a lot of it all but how much of it do you "play" with? I bet they all stay in a box just waiting for you to pass away and then go to some people that will USE them, not just collect them. It brings the question to mind
I've been considering weather or not to respond to your "know it all" post. First, you did not read or comprehend my post. Second, I have a "cheap little 4x8 layout" because I do not choose to build a huge intermodal setting with an unlimited budget that you have recently posted - or should I say bragged about. Third, as stated, it was built for my grandson John, who I love more than anything else in this world, who has ADD, is borderline autistic, has motorskill problems, and other problems from a stupid doctor who gave him a staff infection that turned into scalded skin syndrome, and who weighed 12 lbs when he finally got out of the hospital at 6 months old. At 1 1/2 years pld, he would not play with anything or watch TV for more than 5 minutes at a time. I bought him the "Kids Love Toy Trains" video, and he sat for 45 minutes watching it. Since then, trains have been one of his passions, and has helped him in learning many things. He stays with us for 5 to 10 days at a time, and spends a majority of this time with my "cheap little 4x8 layout". Rather than waste an "unlimited budget" an a intermodal setting for bragging purposes, what funds I have are going into a trust for him. This Christmas vacation, he did the Christmas decorating of the 4x8 completely by himself:
Yes I collect many different roads! SP,UP,D&RGW,SF,B&M,Great Western "My Favorite short line" and others.If I like a paint scheme,or particular loco I will buy it. I have Steamers,Diesels,High speed bullets,electrics,and am starting to collect Traction cars. Lately I have been concentrating on the things I need for My GW layout,But I would like to aquire an Aerotrain!
Rule #1. This is My railroad
Rule #2. If You don't like how I model My railroad,Consult Rule #1
Here's a portion of My collection...
I'll be the dissenting voice...
"Model Trains" is (are?) a big hobby. Collecting, dabbling, building cars that will never end up running, etc... They're all part of model trains, as much as operating a layout is.
Where my opinion differs from most posted here is that I feel that "model railroading" is specific... To me, it's building a minature transportation system. I'm not talking about having 12 guys over to operate from a prototype timetable. What I mean is that the layout (which, IMHO is the ultimate objective of the model railroader) should consist of elements, all of which contribute to a central theme. Examples of "themes" include Depression-era Colorado narrow gauge line, modern BNSF/UP in the California desert, or the Pennsylvania Railroad Middle Division of the 1950s... The equipment, operations, and scenery should all work toward establishing the layout as a slice of a railroad (with a purpose and a history) and not just a collection of trains on a track.
But that's just my definition of model railroading. Again, all things model-train related fall under the big umbrella of "model trains," but my in my personal opinion, there is a difference between collecting and running, and between running anything and running with a theme. That last category is what I personally consider "model railroading."
Of course, it's not my business to tell anyone else how to enjoy model trains and I don't/won't. So enjoy it however you want!
You can take or leave my opinion at your leasure. But please, for those who disagree (and I know you will!), please keep it civil!
BlueHillsCPR wrote: Railphotog wrote:Remeber its your railroad/hobby, and you can do whatever you want. There are no standards for whatever you choose to do, as long as you are happy doing it. Have fun and enjoy whatever you choose!Don't let anyone else tell you what makes a "serious modeller".
Railphotog wrote:Remeber its your railroad/hobby, and you can do whatever you want. There are no standards for whatever you choose to do, as long as you are happy doing it. Have fun and enjoy whatever you choose!
Don't let anyone else tell you what makes a "serious modeller".
Every hobby has trends or fads, and every hobby evolves.
In model railroading, the trend, fad, or evolution has been to ever more prototype accuracy. This has affected all aspects of the hobby -- from building the models, to running trains.
Unfortunately, along with it has come some "eliteism" -- the idea you aren't a serious model railroader unless you are into prototype accuracy in everything you do in the hobby.
But I prefer the big tent approach to the hobby. There's plenty of room for collectors who like to have a layout that's a place to display their collection, however eclectic it may be.
But if you get real serious about realistic operation as opposed to just the model making side, that will tend to evolve you into the need to get specific about what prototype you model. If operation is more just to run trains to relax and to display your collection, then not to worry! Just run them however you like.
If you do get into realistic operation like I am, you can still have your cake and eat it too, somewhat. You just have to get more clever. Unlike modelers like Jack Burgess (who models one specific day on the Yosemite Valley line), I model a decade on the SP in Oregon in HO -- the 1980s.
At any given time on my layout, it's exactly 20 years in the past. Right now it's 1988, so you can look for DRGW units to begin showing up with the SP and DRGW merger. I also know there was some BN pool power on the Siskiyou Line in the late 1980s, so besides the SP scarlet and gray, I can have DRGW orange & black, and BN green & black. Of course, there's the occassional SPSF Kodachrome unit as well.
Earlier in the decade, there was a lot of UP yellow & gray. If the Cascade Line has problems, I can run an occassional Amtrak train. Or even a Daylight GS4 steamer excursion is not out of the question! Lots of possibilities -- and it's all still prototypical.
Once 2010 comes, I will go back to 1980 on the layout and march through the decade again.
Other options come to mind. If you model a metro area like Tacoma, Wa in the decade of the 1970s, you could run Great Northern orange & green, Great Northern big sky blue, Burlington Route, Northern Pacific, Burlington Northern, and Amtrak -- and be completely prototypical as to paint schemes. I'm sure there are many other examples of decades you could model like I do and have lots of interesting changes in the equipment.
I find being more selective and limiting myself to a specific location and time period range becomes a lot of fun as I learn more details about the era I'm modeling. Yet I do it in such a way that it's not a straight jacket -- I also have interesting variety.
But I also understand this may not float everyone's boat. Some of my fondest memories in the hobby come from my high school days where I would talk a lot with the school janitor who turned out to be a rabid model railroader. He loved to build accurate models, down to the nut and bolt level. But he couldn't care less about operations. And his most favorite prototype was what ever modeling project gave him the most interesting challenge.
Would I say my janitor friend was a serious model railroader, even though he didn't even run the trains he modeled? You bet!
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
Another angle is I happen to be building a very large industry. Within that industry involves planning the interior spaces inside the buildings. I know deep in my heart I will probably NEVER build interiors for these buildings but maybe one day...
Im already going nuts and solved the switchlist for that industry. I could care less what engine or rolling stock delivers to what spot within that industry. Does any operator care that there is 1420 boxes of widgets "Medium- Painted" inside that boxcar? No! If the operator wants to know two things: What car and which dock. That really makes life fun.
There is a line that I try to stay on this side of "Good enough" because life is too short to try and bring home the troubles one has at work.
Hey Gerome
As many have said it's your layout do as you wish, I model Only Canadian Railways, as I am Canadian and grew up in Saskatchewan and lived a stone's throw away from the CP Mainline I watched 5-10 Trains a day go by all in CP Tuscan Colors, We loved to count how many Geeps went by and how many cars they pulled,the Engineer always had a wave and a long pull on the horn for us,so as I started to Model my railways I stayed with what I grew up with, CP,CN and BC rail, I have 35 Engines mostly Kato, Atlas Classic and Proto's all Canadian Markings, also all my Rolling stock (150+) is also all Canadian not excluding others railways it's just what I have always seen so stayed with that,my layout takes up a 10' x 20' area and has all 150+ cars on it and 10 Engines,5 mainline and 5 switchers, I cycle my engines threw each week as I build new trains for the week in the yard,but thats just me and I have fun with it......
Have fun...
Mike.
Gerome wrote: I understand that to be a serious modeler, one must stick to just a few road names. What does this mean?
One can be serious about other things in the hobby as well. I know people who are "serious" about the details of a specific locomotive. They will spend $200 on detail parts to model that one locomotive exactly, to the last vent opening and bolt hole, match the real one. It then sits in a display case.
One can be serious about modeling dispatch operations. The trains have to glide over the layout on schedule in perfect syncronization minimizing the delay of each train. What the trains composistion is our how they are painted as is irrelevant.
One can be serious about way freight operation. Getting the proper cars delivered to the proper industries is the important thing. Once again what road name of locomotive put that car into the right spot is irrelevant.
Once can be serious about modeling scenery. Making realistic looking rocks, trees, mountain scenes with no sillyness like dinosaurs or yoda's lurking in the trees.
I have just loved collecting the locos. ... But my question is....doesn't anyone else just collect every darn interesting paint job or road name just for the look of it...and run them around just to admire them?
So the classification of serious, professional, amature doesn't apply. One could be a serious, amature, or professional collector. Often good collections will have a theme.
But I guess I could never let a serious modeller see me using my Chesapeake and Ohio or Western Maryland diesels to pull Sante Fe cars around.
I am resigned to being called a toy train set collector,
SIR TRAIN NUT- Make a copy of this-
ANYONE THAT DOESN'T LIKE THE MANNER IN WHICH THESE TRAINS ARE OPERATED, PLEASE OBSERVE THE MISTLETOE ATTACHED TO THE OWNERS SHIRT TAIL...
This was given to me as a framed message that I have in my train room. Teffy was kind enough to give it to me. As a couple others have stated, its your rr, run it to please yourself.
Enjoy,enjoy, enjoy.....
Flip
David Parks I am the terror that flaps in the night!
If you are ever visited by someone who insists that every model railroad has to follow some single part of "real railroading," tell it that you're modeling a museum with an eclectic collection.
As for me, I model a specific place, and a railroad that was pretty much "the only game in town." (The Japan National Railway Company was a government-owned near-monopoly.) Two things chip corners off that monolithic approach:
The moral of the story? It's your railroad, so do whatever pleases YOU. If you please others, too - that's just a bonus.
Model railroading is (supposed to be) fun!
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - in 1:80 scale on 16.5mm gauge track, aka HOj)
I have a freelanced RR that I use as my excuse to run whatever roadname I want, I just say that the locos and rolling stock are 'leased.'
-beegle55
I like collectors. If we all just had the engines/rolling stock we could actually use on our layouts, the MRR market would be too small for most manufacturers. And the ones still around would only make a few types.
So I encourage each of you to buy at least one locomotive and car you don't need on the layout - preferably in S scale And you don't have to limit yourself to one - I haven't.
Enjoy
Paul
As described before, my railroad is a large one, and I still have too many diesels, to the point I have some shelves set aside in the storage area to hold the surplus, but they get rotated in and out of service.
As many have tried to explain, the hobby is what satisfies you. I model a very narrow time period, June 8, 1989, how much more restrictive can you be, and I model the Santa Fe, again restrictive, and I model two particular lines for the Santa Fe in Oklahoma, even more restrictive.
But, I also have BN operation by including a piece of their line from Tulsa that intersects with the Santa Fe, and BN trains ended up in Waynoka OK on the Santa Fe as runthroughs, so I have a fair amount of BN. Oh, UP also runs, along with BN, in Oklahoma City, one of my modeled points, and in 1989, the UP had just taken over Katy, so I can run MKT diesels on transfer runs. And then there is my fictional regional Oklahoma Northern, and so on.
So I am restrictive in that sense, but it doesn't mean every model railroader has to be restrictive. And certainly the remarks to the guy with the 4 by 8 and hundreds of locomotives was out of order. He has the right to enjoy the hobby his way.
Bob