jfugate wrote:Joe:I don't think you're quite getting it -- only the locos that are CURRENTLY RUNNING will draw current. You can effectively forget about the rest of the locos on the track.For example, if you had a massive layout with 1000 locos on the track, but you always only run one loco at a time, a 1.7 amp NCE PowerCab starter system would run the layout.
Joe:
I don't think you're quite getting it -- only the locos that are CURRENTLY RUNNING will draw current. You can effectively forget about the rest of the locos on the track.
For example, if you had a massive layout with 1000 locos on the track, but you always only run one loco at a time, a 1.7 amp NCE PowerCab starter system would run the layout.
Joe, Thats what I thought, When the layout is complete there could be a combination of up to 26 running at one time (if I have a full operating session). Its true if im the only one running trains i will only run a few perhaps 2 to 6 at once.
I do like your Idea of using 1156 light bulbs for power districts and you cant beat the price. I will be looking into designing it in place of power district circuit breakers I saw the video it was cool. Being an electrician I dont like shorts. Thanks, Joe
joecool1212 wrote:Ok I was up till 2am last night assigning locomotives to yards, industries ect. I have already recorded the current draw for most of my locomotives so i just added up the actual current draw for all 26 and I get 18.8 amps. I have left a small safety margin for start up current. For instance one of my Athearn SD40-2 draws .32 amps running at 10volts so I used .40 which was close to its max anyway. So it looks like I will need 1 8amp command station 1 8 amp booster and possibly 1 5amp booster. Joe
Start up current is only an issue with QSI sound locos, and if you wire your track to use 1156 protected train blocks, you don't even have to worry about that.
Figure out how many locos are in your typical train, and then compute the current draw of a typical train. Next determine the typical number of trains that will be running at any given time -- and that will be your total layout current needs.
Next, bust up your layout into 5 amp power districts. Using 8 amp or 10 amp boosters in HO or N is a good way to damage your locos or track if you ever have a short. You're better off to add more 5 amp power districts than a few 8 or 10 amp power districts.
More power districts with less amps per district makes managing the power side of your layout easier. Fewer power districts with more amps per district increases the chance that a nasty short will damage something in the smaller scales.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
modelmaker51 wrote:Both of you, (joecool & jbinkly), have mentioned that you'll have x amount of engines on the layouts, the only number that is relevant is how many are actively running at any one time. You could have a thousand locos on the layout and still the only ones that'll matter are the ones actually moving on the layout.Empire Northern http://www.empirenorthernmodels.com/ sells the NCE D13SRJ for about $12 per unit in bulk packs of 10 or more. These are 4-function 1.3 amp (2amp peak) decoders.
Both of you, (joecool & jbinkly), have mentioned that you'll have x amount of engines on the layouts, the only number that is relevant is how many are actively running at any one time. You could have a thousand locos on the layout and still the only ones that'll matter are the ones actually moving on the layout.
Empire Northern http://www.empirenorthernmodels.com/ sells the NCE D13SRJ for about $12 per unit in bulk packs of 10 or more. These are 4-function 1.3 amp (2amp peak) decoders.
I am trying to figure how many will be moving at the same time. There is alot of track to run trains on. I am making the crew assignment list and looking to see what operator will run what. In doing so I see I could have 9 operators max. If that was the case 26 would be the max amount of running locomotives I would be able to run at one time. I'm not sure it will be possible to do that, so if i give some operators more jobs per session than I would be running less trains at the same time. I also dont know if there would be enough fluidity to the whole layout with 26 running at once but now i'm starting to see how to make the decission.
About the decoders I am looking to buy in bulk so I will look into the NCE. I also saw a source online for the digitrax DH123 for about $13.00 not in bulk. Perhaps I can do better. Some of my P2k, Atlas and Kato's are dcc ready and some others I will install sound in but, most of the athearn units will just be inexpensive basic decoders because i'll need a lot. Joe
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
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joecool1212 wrote: MisterBeasley wrote: Since you're planning right now, it's a good time to plan your power districts and where you will put your insulators. Each power district will need a separate track power bus, connecting to its own booster. For now, though, you can start with a single booster, and route all of the track bus wires to it. If you find you need more power, you can split off the power districts easily later on.If you go this route, I'd advise using a separate circuit breaker for each district, even without a separate booster. This will give you fault/overload protection, and also make troubleshooting easier. It will make your op sessions go more smoothly, too.Depending on the physical size of your layout, you may want to actually locate the booster units closer to their track zones than to the command station. I've got no experience in this, though, so it would be good to hear from those big-layout guys who have chosen to keep the boosters close together, thus keeping the command bus lines short, or spreading them apart to keep the power runs short.This brings up the next question about where to put the boosters. I will probally start with the 8 amp superchief set and devide this up into power districts. I assume when I run out of current I will trip the main overload protection. If that is the case I will add more as I build more of the layout. In the area of the district or in one central location? any suggestions? This is a big project so it will take me time to build more. The most important thing to me is to get the mainline up and running so I have something to run my trains on. Adding yards and sidings for more locomotives and cars as I go. I also have to convert all my Athearn locomotives to DCC and am still trying to figure what decoders I want to use. Any suggestions again? I have alot to do (90 or so) so price is important also.
MisterBeasley wrote: Since you're planning right now, it's a good time to plan your power districts and where you will put your insulators. Each power district will need a separate track power bus, connecting to its own booster. For now, though, you can start with a single booster, and route all of the track bus wires to it. If you find you need more power, you can split off the power districts easily later on.If you go this route, I'd advise using a separate circuit breaker for each district, even without a separate booster. This will give you fault/overload protection, and also make troubleshooting easier. It will make your op sessions go more smoothly, too.Depending on the physical size of your layout, you may want to actually locate the booster units closer to their track zones than to the command station. I've got no experience in this, though, so it would be good to hear from those big-layout guys who have chosen to keep the boosters close together, thus keeping the command bus lines short, or spreading them apart to keep the power runs short.
Since you're planning right now, it's a good time to plan your power districts and where you will put your insulators. Each power district will need a separate track power bus, connecting to its own booster. For now, though, you can start with a single booster, and route all of the track bus wires to it. If you find you need more power, you can split off the power districts easily later on.
If you go this route, I'd advise using a separate circuit breaker for each district, even without a separate booster. This will give you fault/overload protection, and also make troubleshooting easier. It will make your op sessions go more smoothly, too.
Depending on the physical size of your layout, you may want to actually locate the booster units closer to their track zones than to the command station. I've got no experience in this, though, so it would be good to hear from those big-layout guys who have chosen to keep the boosters close together, thus keeping the command bus lines short, or spreading them apart to keep the power runs short.
This brings up the next question about where to put the boosters. I will probally start with the 8 amp superchief set and devide this up into power districts. I assume when I run out of current I will trip the main overload protection. If that is the case I will add more as I build more of the layout. In the area of the district or in one central location? any suggestions? This is a big project so it will take me time to build more. The most important thing to me is to get the mainline up and running so I have something to run my trains on. Adding yards and sidings for more locomotives and cars as I go. I also have to convert all my Athearn locomotives to DCC and am still trying to figure what decoders I want to use. Any suggestions again? I have alot to do (90 or so) so price is important also.
I started with a 5A SuperChief system and then added another 5A and another 8A booster. I plan to be able to have 50 locomotives on the layout at one time. I have that many now but some are still in boxes. One thing to consider is blocking the mainline into a couple of power districts. That will allow you to run more total booster power on the mainline. I have a double mainline and split it into two districts and a total of 9 power districts. To the comment above about booster spacing, I have mine located in two places to keep the power runs shorter. With Digitrax Loconet you won't have any bus length issues to deal with.
For decoders, I only have a handful of the older Athearns and haven't converted them yet so I can't help there. For everything else I either buy them decoder equipped or use Digitrax decoders. One thing to consider is whether you are going to upgrade any of them to sound decoders. There is quite a variation in features for sound decoder upgrades. Another thing to keep in mind on upgrades are locomotive lights. With some decoders you either need to add dropping resistors or replace the lamps. For P2K locomotives, the Digitrax L0 decoders have built in current limiting. They have worked well for me.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
MisterBeasley wrote:Since you're planning right now, it's a good time to plan your power districts and where you will put your insulators. Each power district will need a separate track power bus, connecting to its own booster. For now, though, you can start with a single booster, and route all of the track bus wires to it. If you find you need more power, you can split off the power districts easily later on.If you go this route, I'd advise using a separate circuit breaker for each district, even without a separate booster. This will give you fault/overload protection, and also make troubleshooting easier. It will make your op sessions go more smoothly, too.Depending on the physical size of your layout, you may want to actually locate the booster units closer to their track zones than to the command station. I've got no experience in this, though, so it would be good to hear from those big-layout guys who have chosen to keep the boosters close together, thus keeping the command bus lines short, or spreading them apart to keep the power runs short.
jrbernier wrote:Joe, That 8 amp DCS200 will power about 25-30 engines(non-Sound), if they all are running at the same time. With sound, you still should get 10-15 engines working. They do not draw a lot of current when they are just 'parked'. As others have mentioned, 'power districts' are even more important - You do not need a single derailment/short to shut down the entire layout. Jim Bernier
Joe,
That 8 amp DCS200 will power about 25-30 engines(non-Sound), if they all are running at the same time. With sound, you still should get 10-15 engines working. They do not draw a lot of current when they are just 'parked'. As others have mentioned, 'power districts' are even more important - You do not need a single derailment/short to shut down the entire layout.
Jim Bernier
Jim, I am planning the power districts now. I have 8 but may need more. I wanted to figure how many boosters I needed before I can finalize the power districts. These post have been very helpfull. Thanks, Joe
Andies Candy wrote: Here is where you made a big mistake, When you said "I have a midsize layout with the ability to have at least 6 operators and and a minium of 24 locomotives on the layoout at a time. There could be as many as 50 locomotives." I would not rate what sounds like more than a MIDSIZED layout with the ability to hold a minimum of 24 locomotives sorry. My layout is considered a midsized at 15'x25' and the ability to run 3 or 4 locomotives at the same but certainly not more but if you count the MU factor I would asay 6-12 locomotive and others idling. What is the size of your layout? Sounds like it would be cinsidered a "large" layout.
Here is where you made a big mistake, When you said "I have a midsize layout with the ability to have at least 6 operators and and a minium of 24 locomotives on the layoout at a time. There could be as many as 50 locomotives." I would not rate what sounds like more than a MIDSIZED layout with the ability to hold a minimum of 24 locomotives sorry. My layout is considered a midsized at 15'x25' and the ability to run 3 or 4 locomotives at the same but certainly not more but if you count the MU factor I would asay 6-12 locomotive and others idling. What is the size of your layout? Sounds like it would be cinsidered a "large" layout.
The Train room is 18X28. The upper mainline goes around the room about 6 to 7ft hi. That gives me about 95' mainline track. I would have dropped the hight of this line to 5'5'' max but mayor (wife) and town council (older children) would not approve my application. There is a lower half about 4'6''high (although I am flexable on that) that is 12X18 and in one corner of that is a helix to get up to the upper level. The upper level will contain a coal mine, coal fired power plant, rock quarry, coal,fuel oil, and feed dealer, scrap yard, Ford Auto plant Propane dealer and an ethanal plant. There is also one siding I dont know what to put there. There is a large 4 track classification yard aprox 22 ft long. I also have ready tracks to store the helper locomotives while awating assignment. I also will use video camara's to help me see what I cant by eye. The lower level is mostly a large locomotive servicing faucility with online refuling, sanding and inspection for 8 locomotives. Locomotive storage tracks for aprox 12 and a ready track for the serviced locomotives that holds 8. There is a light maintenence shop with 3 tracks and a heavy locomotive rebuild shop offsite(at my work bench) reached by tracks. There is a second classification yard there with 4 single ended tracks aprox 10' long and 4 double ended tracks 10ft long for classification. There are also a few industries including a steel mill, chemical plant, oil refinery, plastic manufacture, produce packing plant, leather exporter,canned goods shipper, port area with container traffic and a branch line with a paper mill at the end. I model a modern railroad somewhere in Western PA or Eastern OH. It is connected to all major railroads so you will see every class 1 there (I have a large collection of locomotives, over 130) The area is CSX territory though. I will also run amtrak passenger service to both levels.
The areas I like to work on is track laying, wiring, computer control of signals, passenger service and anything else I can find. The parts I don't have alot of experience with are scenery and scratch building, kitbashing witch there will be a lot of as there are many industries to build. I have 2 friends who will help with this, but one has no experience with anything except cooking (he is a chef). I will be looking for others to join my layout when the room it goes in is finished in late summer. Joe
joecool1212 wrote:I just finished my track plan before christmas and am into the wiring phase of planning. I have a few questions for those of you with DCC knowledge. I will be using a Digitrax Super Chief set that I will be purchasing soon. I have a midsize layout with the ability to have at least 6 operators and and a minium of 24 locomotives on the layoout at a time. There could be as many as 50 locomotives. Most of these will be 2 unit consists except the helper grade will use 6. I went online and most things I read is 8 amps will run 8 to 12 locomotives. So will I really need 1 8 amp command station and 4 8 amp boosters? I have run most of these locomotives with an amp meter and find even with 6 on my DC layout with a load of cars even my older athearn units dont pull more than .45 to .55 amps even at start up. Is it diffrent with DCC? I dont have my DCC system yet so I cant test it. What is your experience with this. Also how do you size the power district circuit breakers when breaking the layout down into smaller power districts? Any help in this area would be appreaciated. Thanks, Joe
For modern HO locomotives, I recommend the following in my DCC clinics and DCC training materials:
Non-sound loco: 0.2 amps per loco
Sound non-QSI: 0.4 amps per loco
QSI sound: 0.6 amps per loco
These are obviously generalizations to make the math easy, but will get you quickly in the ballpark as to your DCC booster amperage needs.
Keep in mind you don't have to power every single loco on the layout -- only the locos that are running. Also keep in mind you can break the layout up into power districts, so the trains that are running won't need to all be powered by a single booster.
I personally divide the layout up into train-length blocks and put short protection by means of 1156 bulbs on each train block. A power district will typically have 2-4 train blocks, and I expect typically there will be two trains in a power district, with each train drawing circa 1.8 amps, for a total of 3.6 amps. If my power district has 5 amps, I have 1.4 amps of headroom, which is helpful. It's best not to push your system to it's absolute limit -- then you have no headroom if you ever get something like some helper locos added in.
Just do the math on your typical train. In my case, I have 3 units on the front, a two unit mid-train helper, two units of which could be sound -- worst case QSI sound. So I have:
.2 + .6 + .2 + .6 + .2 = 1.8 amps per train
Then I determine the number of trains that will be active at any given time on the layout, and divide up the layout accordingly across 5A boosters. Also, for short isolation purposes, you generally want significant yards or towns with lots of switching to be their own power district. This way when someone shorts a turnout, you don't shut down big chunks of the railroad.
For more on short management with 1156 bulbs and train-length blocks, here's a video demo.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Myself, I have a DCS100(5 amp) command station and a DB100(5 amp) 'booster' on my layout. I have the layout divided into 4 'power districts' and have had 'zero' problems with as many as 24 engines on the layout(6 are 'sound'). I rarely have more than 6 engines 'moving' at any one time, and the single 5 amp command station could run the entire layout if needed.
Our Club layout has a DCS200 command station and 2 more 8 amp boosters. We have had 8-10 trains running at one time(many times with 3-4 'sound' engines in a consist). We have 18 PM42 units, and have each of the outputs set to 2.5 amps. The only problem we encountered was when a member tried to run 3 BLI 'sound' E6A's and they tripped the PM42 circuit. I tweaked the PM42 at the engine terminal so it was set for something like 3.5 or 5 amps and the problem went away. The same individual had 8 'sound' engines parked by the west yard lead, and when we powered up the layout, it tripped the PM42 for that 'power district' He removed 1/2 of the engines and it powered up fine.
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
tstage wrote:Joe, So the "16" would be all the individual locomotives - even the ones that make up your consists?Tom
So the "16" would be all the individual locomotives - even the ones that make up your consists?
Tom
Yes in the beginning 16. 6 up the grade 2 mainline units running on the upper level 2 on the lower level 2 switchers in the 2 yards and 2 locals unit each + 3 or 4 sound units ideling in the service area. Yea about 16. But if I add more operators I can add another 24 locomotives mostly in helper service and some waiting. But if I play Union pacific in early 2004 and 05 i can stack them up waiting to get into the yards and make the dispacters job really tough. Thats where up to 50 fit in. I dont think I would do it on a regular basis but it happens and I have the motive power for it so its possible. Joe
You should be fine with one 8 amp booster.
I have an NCE ProCab 5 amp system and we run 2 mainline trains, (60 to 80 NMRA weighted cars), with 3 locos each, 2 branchline train with usually 2 locos each and switch out the yard, also with a 2 loco consist, all simultaneously. That's 10 to 12 locos with a 5 amp booster. The booster can get warm, but so far it's never shut down in the year and half we've been running DCC.
I have the digitrax 8 amp super chief R and have had no problems running as many as 10 locomotives at one time. I also have 2 sound locomotives and they also run fine with them and the other 8 locomotives running at one time. If you plan on running all 50 at one time then you may need a booster.
I run 4 power districts on a tony's trains circuit breaker but only one command station. The only problem i've faced so far is that one of the UR 100's burned out one time and the other problem was that the command station shuts down due to overheating. I solved the overheating problem by installing a fan behind the command station. In fact, with the fan on, it doesn't get hot at all anymore. It doesn't matter the size of the layout that dictates how many boosters you'll need. It's how many locomotives you plan on running at one time that determines how many boosters you'll need.
If they recommend that it will run up to 12 locomotives than that's the limit. Anymore than 12 locomotives running at one time and you'll probably need boosters especially if you plan on running sound locomotives since sound pulls more power than locomotives without sound..
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I would think that that number is a bit high but that depends on your locomotives and how old they are. Most newer locomotives probably run 0.25 - 0.33A per locomotive. Older locomotives might be closer to 0.5A. A few old "guzzlers" might run you into the 0.75A+ range.
You say you'll have as many as "50 locomotives" on our layout. What's the maximum number of locomotives you expect to run at any given time?