wobblinwheel wrote:Obviously, Union Pacific doesn't think "dull is better"! Just the other day I saw the Norfolk Southern passenger train come through town, pulled by the used-to-be Southern F-units. They don't think "Dull is better" either! Check out these modern-day excursion trains (I don't care how "far away" you are). Find a "dull" spot!? When the N&W 1218 was still running excursions in 1980's thru 90's, She NEVER sported any "Grimy Black" anywhere! It seems nobody here has seen the REAL THING(S)...
There's a difference between "grime" and "dull." The finish, no matter how glossy or waxed close up will be viewed through the atmosphere. The atmosphere is filled with moisture and dust to varying degrees, which will make the finish less glossy the farther away you are when you view it.
"Grimy Black" is a color to show just that, black covered with grime. Modern day excursion locomotives, just like the business trains locomotives, are kept MUCH cleaner than the same locomotives were in the days they were earning their keep pulling revenue freight or scheduled passenger trains. Excursion and business trains make up a VERY small percentage of the overall quantity of trains you'll see on the REAL THING(S).
wm3798 wrote: I use gloss black as the base coat for my WM diesels, but then the Western Maryland had the Sunday crew at Elkins Simonize them... They had a wash rack, too, and they weren't afraid to use it. Things didn't start to dull down until that stupid cat got involved. So much for company pride.Also, the glossy base coat makes applying decals easier. To tone it down a bit, I'll mist a bit of dullcote over it, but not too much.Lee
I use gloss black as the base coat for my WM diesels, but then the Western Maryland had the Sunday crew at Elkins Simonize them... They had a wash rack, too, and they weren't afraid to use it. Things didn't start to dull down until that stupid cat got involved. So much for company pride.
Also, the glossy base coat makes applying decals easier. To tone it down a bit, I'll mist a bit of dullcote over it, but not too much.
Lee
WM sure took pride in meticulous maintainance of the fleet, but it really went south w/ CSX. I'm surprised that they even had paint, period...forget trackwork.
Oh, and notice the dull "cat" paint on the GP40 below. Hmm, I do use a lot of flat finish.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Mike C.
Good tip on the "ghosting" Paul.
As I mentioned above, those restored New York Central "lightning stripers" look great, but their shine has diminished considerably as can be seen on the link below:
http://www.railroadmuseum.net/equipment.htm
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
wobblinwheel,There's no need to SHOUT, okay? We can "hear" you just fine.
As for glossy paint, I find it looks horrible in HO scale. For anything "shiny" (new passenger cars, fresh locos, etc.), I use "satin" finish. The problem with gloss is that it doesn't scale well at all (like real water). IMHO, it makes the model look glazed like a donut (ummm...donuts).
It's sort of like black paint. If you're painting a bridge for example, you don't want to paint it pure black as it will look unrealistic. If you "ghost" it with some gray or white overspray, it makes it more realistic as the lighter shade reproduces the effects of the atmosphere on your vision. That haze gray on a black bridge is needed like satin instead of gloss. YMMV.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Hmmmmm. Uh, Wobblin. Yes a number of us have seen the REAL THING(S). My thick batch of photos that I've taken since the late 1970s include shots of the Chessie 614 as well as a slew of diesels. Seems like you're trying to beat us over the head. I think most here do understand what you're expressing but you have to look at the flip side of this issue realistically.
Your comment: Find a "dull spot" has to be put into perspective. Yes, railroad equipment is shiny when new and yes, restored excursion locomotives tend to have nicely maintained paint finishes. Locomotives, such as the N&W 1218, UP 844, etc., are the exceptions to the typical appearance of a North American locomotives, steam, diesel, or electric.
The point that has been made is that the MAJORITY of railroad locomotives are shiny when relatively new, but dull down naturally (with or without grime). The manufacturers are simply using the standard practice of considering what the majority of customers would like. They're likely aware of the "stigma" associated with shiny model locomotives. However, you make some valid points.....so why don't you send the manufacturers your suggestions and encourage other modelers with similar feelings to do the same.
As for glossing a factory flat or semi-gloss finish on a model........ it can be done.
A simple effective technique: After removing handrails and other obstructions from the body, wash it in warm soap and water. Mask off or remove the numbers. Carefully, but firmly wet-sand the body with a 3M "Gray" Scotch Pad. Do not try to penetrate through to the primer below. All you are doing is scuffing up the colored surface.
Sand from front to back, avoid vertical motions, except for where it's unavoidable. Once finished, check to make sure that there are very "fine" linear scratches on the surface, which should be completely dull. Blow off and then clean the body with your preferred cleaning solvent. Airbrush one to two coats of clear with a thin consistency (solvent or acrylic based) onto the surface. The clear will "bite" into the fine marks left by the Scotch Pad and should produce some nice results. .
Guess none here have seen 844/3985 out on the road in just a coat of primer and well aged black/graphite in a few locations, SOP when being tested on the road after shopping, seems I recall 1218 being so used a few times. My thoughts on paint finish is dependent on the era, during the 20's most locomotives, freight and passenger were kept quite clean, during the depression, forces were reduced so maintaince suffered, still they were presentable though many lost elaborate trim details.
During the forties, with the railroads fully taxed, I doubt fresh paint, much less a wash job was of major concern and with the coming of the diesel many steam engines were reduced in importance, used during rush seasons for example. As always exceptions apply, but I contend that over weathering is still a issue within our hobby, as is the use of a flat finish, that jacket was gloss once upon a time afterall.
Dave
kiddy pretty. worship the pretty kiddy. (though Chessie was a better pet before she went to Balti.)
Actually, the Bachmann Daylight comes with a shiny gloss black top version. so complain to bachmann to make an 844, and problem solved. :P
Actually, no matter how often you cleaned them, the excourson steamers can still rack up a lot of grime. (the stuff comin out the top ain't scrubbin bubbles) Cause unless your rrreeeaaallllyyyyy devoted, there isn;t a crew strapped to the roof to amke sure she's clean. And I could be worng, but I'm sure a lot of people may be running 844 in service, not excoursion
-Morgan
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
wobblinwheel wrote: I just saw the review in MR for Athearn's new FEF 4-8-4 Union Pacific "excursion" locomotive. I noticed (as usual) that it comes painted in satin black. I keep wondering why these people go to such lengths to reproduce modern "excursion" locos and NOT PAINT THEM IN GLOSS PAINT?? I've seen the real 844, the 3985, N&W 1218....ALL SHINED-UP LIKE A NEW CADILLAC! Don't these guys realize how difficult it is to make flat paint SHINY, as opposed to making shiny paint FLAT? A light dusting of dullcote strategically placed with an airbrush makes dulling-down of certain areas on a new locomotive a BREEZE! But try to cover a flat-painted loco with a good layer of Glosscote without the chance of really screwing it up! Excursion locos are SHINY! Who can argue with that? Not to mention the PASSENGER CARS!! Most all railroads normally kept their passenger fleets spit-shined (modern or not). Why is model railroad stuff always kept DULL? My nice shiny BLI N&W Class J looks really good beside it's sister, the dull-looking 1218. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it! Anybody agree?
I just saw the review in MR for Athearn's new FEF 4-8-4 Union Pacific "excursion" locomotive. I noticed (as usual) that it comes painted in satin black. I keep wondering why these people go to such lengths to reproduce modern "excursion" locos and NOT PAINT THEM IN GLOSS PAINT?? I've seen the real 844, the 3985, N&W 1218....ALL SHINED-UP LIKE A NEW CADILLAC! Don't these guys realize how difficult it is to make flat paint SHINY, as opposed to making shiny paint FLAT? A light dusting of dullcote strategically placed with an airbrush makes dulling-down of certain areas on a new locomotive a BREEZE! But try to cover a flat-painted loco with a good layer of Glosscote without the chance of really screwing it up! Excursion locos are SHINY! Who can argue with that? Not to mention the PASSENGER CARS!! Most all railroads normally kept their passenger fleets spit-shined (modern or not). Why is model railroad stuff always kept DULL? My nice shiny BLI N&W Class J looks really good beside it's sister, the dull-looking 1218. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it! Anybody agree?
The easy answer to this is "realism." Close up, a locomotive or car might look shiny, but get back a couple hundred feet, and look at that same locomotive or car. Most, if not all of the "shine" you saw close up will be gone. Figure how far away (in scale feet) you are from your trains while running them on the layout. In HO scale, 4 real feet is the equivalent of about 350 scale feet.
Right On.'Shiny paint' only shines when freshly painted. Exposed to the elements, it 'Chalks', then fades. .
So would your shiny models - if left outside to weather and absorb UV rays.
Conclusion: Shiny indoor models don't look real - more 'Toy like'. Floquil's flat paints appear more real (such as 'Grimy Black) to show how things appeared in life outdoors.
We tend to associate 'shiny' with being new, but most plastic Kits 'improve' with a coat of 'flat' paint - by removing the shine. DULL is better.
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
No argument here. I just drove by the yard in town and saw two shiny black engines that see work every day. Now, granted, they do get washed once in a while but, there is no mistaking they are glossy. I think the flat paint look is because for years that was one of the easiest tricks to do to make an engine look "used". Also, I think, there is a perception that glossy engines look too toy like.
Dan
Wobblin,
This is just my humble opinion as a 40 something model railroader:
I don't know how old you are, but I think one factor to consider is that back in the 1980s so many of us (me too) were pleading with the the model manufacturers to "tone down" the finish on HO and N scale locomotives. We had semi-gloss and high gloss finishes to contend with.
Yes, railroads had quite a number of shiny locos and passenger cars on their rosters, but even the "appearance concious" Santa Fe's equpment started dulling down after a just a few years. Grant it, today, we can see Bennet Levin's beautifully restored pair of prototyope Pennsy E8s and the restored Erie E8 as well, with their beautiful gloss coats. Yet, I wonder if anyone's noticed the 2 New York Cental E8s that were restored a few years back. Their shine has dulled down considerably.
I still remember seeing Bachmann, Life-Like, and Tyco units with paint finishes shiny enough that you could look onto their surfaces and count your nose hairs! Impeccable shine. The backlash: High gloss became associated with "toy locomotives". Many of us were quite happy with the more realistic finishes from the manufacturers in more recent years.
So hence, the situation that we see now.