There is a photo of the remains of the 224 being worked when it wrecked on the Rio Grande. Check out this link:
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/yellowstone/#web
Bob
Lillen wrote: coborn35 wrote:Actually the Missabe only had two RSD15's. But Im really glad there is another Missabe guy out there! Are you sure. Because before I ordered them i checked it out and the info I found was that they had six of them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALCO_RSD-15 Of course that is Wikipedia, but still, it doesn't make sense that compaines like BLI would put up the numbers described in that wikipedia. But a Mesabi guy I am. My favorite railroads are these: B&O, UP and DM&IR. There is something about shipping iron ore that I love. I have four Swedish iron hauling locomotives as well. Big brutes they are. Magnus
coborn35 wrote:Actually the Missabe only had two RSD15's. But Im really glad there is another Missabe guy out there!
But Im really glad there is another Missabe guy out there!
Are you sure. Because before I ordered them i checked it out and the info I found was that they had six of them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALCO_RSD-15
Of course that is Wikipedia, but still, it doesn't make sense that compaines like BLI would put up the numbers described in that wikipedia.
But a Mesabi guy I am. My favorite railroads are these: B&O, UP and DM&IR. There is something about shipping iron ore that I love. I have four Swedish iron hauling locomotives as well. Big brutes they are.
Magnus
Ahh yep for some reason I thought I was talking about the steam generator units!
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
jrbernier wrote: Magnus, The DM&IR leased out engines even back in steam days. Some of the 2-8-8-4's went to the D&RGW in WWII. In the diesel era, the SD9's many times were leased out in the winter time. With the start of taconite pellet production, the DM&IR traffic stabilized some as the 'Tac Trains' rolled to Duluth and the pellets were stockpiled by the docks. There was a big bucket wheel reclaimer to harvest them and run them up onto the docks for ship loading. The Milwaukee Road leased engines from the Missabe in the late 70's or early 80's. Amtrak even used the 2 boiler SD9's(129 & 130) on their Duluth to St Paul train for a while. The freeze up of the ports usually happens in late November or early December, and shipping re-opens in March or April. The taconite production did not start until the 60's. IIRC, the 'Taconite Amendment' was passed in Minnesota in 1963. As I mentioned, taconite pellets were shipped year round, and either stockpiled or an 'all rail' pellet train could be run.Jim
Magnus,
The DM&IR leased out engines even back in steam days. Some of the 2-8-8-4's went to the D&RGW in WWII. In the diesel era, the SD9's many times were leased out in the winter time. With the start of taconite pellet production, the DM&IR traffic stabilized some as the 'Tac Trains' rolled to Duluth and the pellets were stockpiled by the docks. There was a big bucket wheel reclaimer to harvest them and run them up onto the docks for ship loading. The Milwaukee Road leased engines from the Missabe in the late 70's or early 80's. Amtrak even used the 2 boiler SD9's(129 & 130) on their Duluth to St Paul train for a while.
The freeze up of the ports usually happens in late November or early December, and shipping re-opens in March or April. The taconite production did not start until the 60's. IIRC, the 'Taconite Amendment' was passed in Minnesota in 1963. As I mentioned, taconite pellets were shipped year round, and either stockpiled or an 'all rail' pellet train could be run.
Jim
I keep reading about the 2-8-8-4's being leased out to the D&RGW during the war, but I have never seen any pictures of documentation to prove this statement. I am confident it could have happened but I can't find any pictures including looking at the Otto C. Perry collection at the Denver Library. His collection has pictures of the Union Pacific 3959 on a train when it was leased to the D&RGW so pictures of leased power was included.
The DM&IR received the latest engines during WW II and the M3's were built in 1941 so it would have to be 1941 and later. The M4 class numbers 228 to 237 were built in 1943 and probably were not leased out since the lakes were only frozen over in late December and January normally when they froze.
I would be interested in knowing the years they were leased and the engine numbers if anyone has that information. Steam history is very interesting to me since I was born during WW II and watched a lot of steam in the Midwest.
I went to the Museum at Duluth a few years ago and watched the M3 #227 spin its drivers several times. All you have to do is push the button and the engine runs for about thirty seconds by an electric motor. The engine is on rollers and the sound is played also.
It is a great thrill to see the 2-8-8-4 in action with the sound, but I miss the condensation and smoke that normally would be seen under steam.
Thanks
CAZEPHYR
Those numbers are the ones I've came across to. I think I will go for all six eventually. I'm just a sucker for complete series of engines.
Here is the actual roster of Missabe RSD15's:
To B&LE 1964 (886), to Cartier No. 94 in 1972, retired 1988, scrapped.
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
At least two SD9's were leased by either CN or CP back in the '60s. Back then both railways leased dozens of US diesels. It kept our cameras busy as one never knew what power would be on the head end. Ah yes, those were the days!
Lillen wrote: jrbernier wrote: Magnus, The DM&IR leased out engines even back in steam days. Some of the 2-8-8-4's went to the D&RGW in WWII. In the diesel era, the SD9's many times were leased out in the winter time. With the start of taconite pellet production, the DM&IR traffic stabilized some as the 'Tac Trains' rolled to Duluth and the pellets were stockpiled by the docks. There was a big bucket wheel reclaimer to harvest them and run them up onto the docks for ship loading. The Milwaukee Road leased engines from the Missabe in the late 70's or early 80's. Amtrak even used the 2 boiler SD9's(129 & 130) on their Duluth to St Paul train for a while. The freeze up of the ports usually happens in late November or early December, and shipping re-opens in March or April. The taconite production did not start until the 60's. IIRC, the 'Taconite Amendment' was passed in Minnesota in 1963. As I mentioned, taconite pellets were shipped year round, and either stockpiled or an 'all rail' pellet train could be run.Jim Thank you very much for this info. It was very helpfull. So, can I say with out cheating to much that a trio of RSD15(I just ordered them) could be leased out during the winther. I'm currently in the very(VERY,VERY) early stages of planning my next layout. On it I want to do this so I want to make the season so that it fits.Once again thanks. Magnus
Thank you very much for this info. It was very helpfull. So, can I say with out cheating to much that a trio of RSD15(I just ordered them) could be leased out during the winther. I'm currently in the very(VERY,VERY) early stages of planning my next layout. On it I want to do this so I want to make the season so that it fits.
Once again thanks.
Actually the Missabe only had two RSD15's.
Thanks for the info and the link. I will check that out.
Just to amplify a point made earlier, DMIR didn't really start hauling taconite in any quantity until the sixties, and even into the seventies they were shipping a lot of red ore thru Duluth or Two Harbors. Except for a few dedicated set-ups like Erie Mining, what taconite plants that existed were pretty small in comparision to what came later - but there were a few around.
Part of the reason steam lasted so long on the DMIR is they had the winter "off" months to work on them in the repair shops, so by spring they were close to brand new.
BTW many DMIR employees looked forward to the layoff from work. Compared to other workers in NE Minnesota the railroaders were paid a very good wage, so usually had money in the bank, plus they rec'd unemployment compensation during the winter so usually didn't have to take other jobs during their layoff. Did someone say "ice fishing"??
For one year (1952 I think) the DMIR leased a former DRGW 4-8-2 that was going to the Wheeling and Lake Erie, it ran on the RR still wearing "Rio Grande" lettering. They also got one RS-2 (or more?) from the Union Railroad, F-7's from the B&LE (one of which was on the property so long they painted out the BLE herald and put on a DMIR one!); these were other US Steel roads. They also leased FT's and F7's from the Great Northern.
In addition, after WW2 they bought steam engines from other roads, including 2-8-2's from the DRGW, 0-10-2's from the Union Railroad and 2-10-4's from the B&LE...very similar to the C&O 2-10-4's that Broadway Limited makes.
A little outside your time, but during one winter in the 1970's DMIR leased out it's two steam-generator equipped SD-9's to Amtrak for use on passenger trains.
http://www.missabe.com/
Thanks all of you for helping me with this. I apreciate it a lot.
Those big, magnificent M3/4 Yellowstones of the Missabe saw a lot of service on other roads during the winters in WWII when the locks were out of commission. Rio Grande leased about 8 of them, others went to the NP, GN and there are even reports of the Western Pacific using a few between Salt lake City and Elko on their 'coal' division to supplement their 4-6-6-4's(though I've never seen a photograph of them on the WP). I understand that they spent as much time off of home rails as they did on, during the War years.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Just to clairfy it a little more, the reason for the shutdown and leasing of the DM&IR locomotives isn't because the lakes are frozen(Lake Superior and Lake Michigan don't freeze over that often and they still ran car ferry service on Lake Michigan during the winter) it's because the locks at Sault St. Marie are shut down for the winter, putting an end to boat traffic to the steel mills in the lower Great Lakes.
I can even remember a few all rail movements of taconite to the steel mills in the east on the CNW in the 1970's that had DM&IR locomotives in the consist.
Scott
Since the Missabe was a 'US Steel' railroad, many times there would be swaps of B&LE or other US Steel roads power. I suspect the Missabe was a known possible source of lease power during the winter months. When the Milwaukee leased SD9's from the Missabe, part of the lease cost was a Missabe diesel mechanic that was 'on site' in St Paul, and a restriction of where the units could be used. IIRC, I think I saw Missabe SD9's on the SOO at times also.
OTOH, the Missabe leased some GN F's in the early years of dieselization on the Missabe(late 50's). The Missabe had a collection of late model steam engines and was slow to dieselize.
This RSD15's are cool looking, but did not last long on the DM&IR. They were purchased in 1959 and were sent to the B&LE in 1964. The SW9's were another short lived engine on the Missabe; purchased in 1953, and most of them were gone by 1963(many to another US Steel road - Union RR).
Jim Bernier
Thanks for the aditional info.
What other railroads would the DM&IR lease to and from which would they lease from?
Magnus:
Jim has it 100% correct....to the best of my knowledge also! With the shipping of Taconite pellets, the trains ran /run year round, though perhaps not as often with production falling off a bit in the dead of winter.
OTOH, if you model the mines of the 50's, with mining and the shipping of the hematite (the red ore) everything pretty much came to a halt...With miners even being laid-off for the winter season.
One additional thing to keep in mind is that the DM&IR leased additional power also, because of a shortage of their own, once the new taconite plants were in full operation.
I can't be 100 % sure, but if memory serves, it seems that I remember as many as 5 or 6 (a mix of DM&IR and GN) engines "grinding" and almost "on their knees" on a taconite drag outside of Aurora MN in 1962....Maybe 64.
Can't comment on the renting idea, but I guess if the shipping is halted, and storage facilities full, mining and hauling should stop soon after...or rather, before.
As for the Great Lakes freezing...it depends. Cold start to the winter in late October or early November, and no let-up to the cold, they could be frozen 35 cm deep by early December. Other times freeze-up doesn't come until after Christmas. Same for the thawing in the spring. I would imagine the variance over four decades would be in the order of 30-40 days.
-Crandell
I have read somewhere that the DM&IR rented out engines during winther when the lakes where frozen.
First of all i would like to know if that is correct.
Secondly, which time of year is the lakes iced over and taconite shipping paused(during the 50's)?