Excellent points and visual aids..That Alameda Belt Line shows a fine example of a industrial area.I also like the look of your layout..
Another thing we may want to consider is a short run around in the middle of a long run around.This helps as far as switching moves.
Like so. The short run around is the crossover about midway in the long run around.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
As Brakie said, the prototype almost always leaves itself room to work, or adds tracks until it has room to work. The way many small switching layouts are designed, where the operator must remove cars from an industry on one "wing" of a switchback or runaround in order to switch other industries, is exceedingly rare on the prototype because it is inefficient. Inefficient for both the railroad and for the customer, whose cars get moved based on another customer's needs. It can also be tediously repetitive on the model. Unfortunately, it is very, very common in model RR designs.One of the keys I have seen in designing quite a few small switching layouts is finding a way to overlap the length of the various elements. Yard or sorting tracks overlap runaround and industry tracks overlap both. For example, this roughly 1'X6' N scale layout was featured in Model Railroad Planning 2005 (with much better artwork, including a map of the real-life Alameda Belt Line inspiration).
Note how the runaround in the center of the layout overlaps the yard and industry tracks, yet every industry track can be worked without disturbing another industry. This is accomplished by having a switch lead (on the left-hand side, it's adjacent to the team track) that's an "extra" working track not part of any industry. On the right hand side, we use the two tracks joined by the crossover as switch leads as well as part of the runaround.The other key comes in operating these layouts. On my own small switching layout (below), I operate with fewer cars than would many people. This gives me a little room to work and reduces the tedium of shuffling one car at a time in and out of a track because everything is over-stuffed. On the real railroad, every spot at every industry is not switched everyday. Having the large industries makes things look more realistic, but using the idea of seasonality allows you the freedom not to switch every spot every session.
There are quite a few more examples of small switching layouts in my layout gallery. There's also an article on ideas for fun small designs for one operator.ByronModel RR Blog
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Stein,Those are excellent points..When I design a ISL it will follow prototype design practice as close as possible in the space allowed.Again that "yard" isn't a yard at all not even a support yard..Its base on a run around track with 2 "kicker" tracks..One for the inbound cars and the other for holding outbound cars following a PRR design at the end of a industrial branch in Columbus,Oh..You see a support yard can also be used for holding industry "overflow" cars and if I held overflow cars there it would almost be impossible to do the required switching work.The support yard for this urban branch was 4 miles from where the branch ended.
As far as the example that would be hard to work and therefore the railroad would have made room for extra track.After all whenever you need to move a car from another industry's dock you are interfering with that industry's work schedule not to mention they will be paying their rail car unloaders for standing around waiting for the car to be returned.
Attention to detail must be observed when designing a ISL.
Rather then trust books or magazine articles I find close observation of the prototype is still the best method.That may require a drive through a industrial park or industrial area.Another way is to follow a industrial branch.A lot can be learned from such trips.
BRAKIE wrote: We should avoid having to much track in a small area.We must keep in mind the need to add industrial buildings,streets and other scenery to include parking lots for employees and/or "drop and hook" trailers if the space permits.Don't forget some trees as well but,not a forest.Details can very from industry to industry but,avoid the trashy look.
We should avoid having to much track in a small area.We must keep in mind the need to add industrial buildings,streets and other scenery to include parking lots for employees and/or "drop and hook" trailers if the space permits.Don't forget some trees as well but,not a forest.Details can very from industry to industry but,avoid the trashy look.
Depends a lot on what you are modelling and how you do your selective compression. If you are modelling the NYCH (New York Cross Harbor) and its yard in Brooklyn, you have a lot of tracks in a small area. Same goes e.g. for the area around a cluster of major grain elevators in e.g. Minneapolis or Kansas City or some such city.
In general industries out in modern industrial parks in the suburbs have quite a bit of open space around them, with laws and trees etc. How much of that space you want to preserve when you do your selective compression to create a model is up to you. Depends on whether it is most important to you to preserve the flavor of operations, or most important how things look.
BRAKIE wrote: The keys to a successful ISL design.First and foremost a ISL must bring pleasure to the builder as far as smooth operation and overall enjoyment.Let's look at one of my designs from one of my past ISLs.First both trail tracks was long enough to hold 1 locomotive and 3 50 foot cars or engine and 2 long cars such as 72 foot centerbeams.
The keys to a successful ISL design.
First and foremost a ISL must bring pleasure to the builder as far as smooth operation and overall enjoyment.
Let's look at one of my designs from one of my past ISLs.
First both trail tracks was long enough to hold 1 locomotive and 3 50 foot cars or engine and 2 long cars such as 72 foot centerbeams.
Having leads (trail tracks) that are long enough to not have to switch cars one by one is smart. You probably should try to plan to be able to pull all cars on a given track in one operation, if possible. If not possible, make the leads as long as you can - it quickly gets old to get one and one car at a time.
BRAKIE wrote: If you will notice I avoid having to serve a industry on a switchback by having to move a car from industry A in order to switch industry B..This is a common mistake many modelers make.Why not use a x crossing instead? Now look closely at the bottom switchback..
If you will notice I avoid having to serve a industry on a switchback by having to move a car from industry A in order to switch industry B..This is a common mistake many modelers make.Why not use a x crossing instead? Now look closely at the bottom switchback..
It makes sense to try to arrange things so you will not often will have to pull cars from one industry to be able to be able to pull cars from or set out cars for another industry. It is a cute trick once in a while, but not all the time.
Of course - making sure that you can switch each industry independent of other industries tend to create a need for more tracks and turnouts and/or fewer industries in a given area.
As Robert A Heinlein put it: TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such As A Free Lunch - you always have to pay in some way for what you get).
Here is an example of an application of Brakie's principle, from a layout I have been working on
We cannot get the cars from the leftmost industry without moving the car at the rightmost industry. Lead is also so short that we can only pull or set out one car at a time. To replace two cars at the leftmost industry, we will have to do:
6 switching moves. Gets old quickly.
A different way ot doing it:
We now have a lead track with room for an engine and two cars. Switching now becomes:
Two moves. Much simpler. But at the added cost of adding a double slip and extra track.
BRAKIE wrote: But,there is a switchback on the bottom track! The distance between the switch and the first industry building was 3 50 foot car lenghts and one GP38-2 locomotive..The industry held 2 cars.There was no need to move a car.I did make two trips to switch this industry.One trip to pick up the outbound car(s) and to deliver the inbound car(s).
But,there is a switchback on the bottom track! The distance between the switch and the first industry building was 3 50 foot car lenghts and one GP38-2 locomotive..The industry held 2 cars.There was no need to move a car.I did make two trips to switch this industry.One trip to pick up the outbound car(s) and to deliver the inbound car(s).
Right - the point was not "no switchbacks whatsoever" - it was "try to avoid having to move cars at another industry to be able to service this industry".
BRAKIE wrote: Notice the small "yard" Actually that is not a yard but,working space.You see I have a track to leave the inbound cars and outbound cars while leaving my run around track open.Each track held 6 or 8 cars depending on the length of the cars being use.
Notice the small "yard" Actually that is not a yard but,working space.You see I have a track to leave the inbound cars and outbound cars while leaving my run around track open.Each track held 6 or 8 cars depending on the length of the cars being use.
This is really a variety of the same rule as "provide long enough leads" - you need to have some work room if you are not going to do cars one at a time. Having a track or a few tracks where you can leave cars while you are switching makes things easier.
Such a grouping of temporary storage tracks can be called an industry support yard.
Some people have cleverly used such tracks to simulate deliveries to industries far too big to actually model. See e.g. the article "Large Industries in small spaces" by Paul Dolkos in Model Railroad Planning 2003. You can posit that the industry has its own local switcher, and that you are just setting out cars for the industry - perhaps even after resorting the cars according to what order the industry want the cars in.
You can also have interchange tracks - where you leave cars for other railroads to pick up. Or team tracks - where you leave a car to be unloaded to a truck or loaded from a truck.
Linda Sand has also written quite a few articles on industrial switching, e.g:
Just my 50 ore worth of comments.
&nb
73
Bruce in the Peg
What I am refering to is the first industry on the bottom of the layout by the switch for the industry on the bottom right hand side.That is a "switchback".
Does that answer your question?
Larry, thanks for launching this topic. I would like to learn more about this, but I am relatively new and am not able to orient myself to your first plan as you use terms like "first industry", and so on. Would you be able to orient me a bit so that I know your starting point(s) for each move, which track is which, and so on? Label each building and then I can figure out how you get to it with your terms.
Thanks, Brakie.
-Crandell
First like any layout a Industrial Switching Layout should be design according to the modelers givens and druthers and therefore there is no real "correct" method.With that in mind let's look at designing a ISL.
First what to avoid.
We should avoid any design that looks like a switching puzzle such as the famous"Time Saver" by John Allen.This of course was design for a switching contest at a NMRA meet.However,over the years this design always comes up in a discussion about ISL designs.
However,this is not a very good design for anything other then a switching puzzle for what it was design for.
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Note:As nice as it looks on our models incoming or out going shipments is not left unattended on a dock for security reasons.As a retired forklift driver I can tell you up front all shipments are taken inside and the out going shipments is left inside.There is nothing gain by leaving anything sitting on the outside dock because sooner or later it must be taken inside.You are just doubling your work load.
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But,there is a switchback on the bottom track!
The distance between the switch and the first industry building was 3 50 foot car lenghts and one GP38-2 locomotive..The industry held 2 cars.There was no need to move a car.I did make two trips to switch this industry.One trip to pick up the outbound car(s) and to deliver the inbound car(s).
As you can see this layout gave me hours of operation enjoyment.
Now this ISL was design as a end of branch line industrial area..As you can see it was rather straight foward and use basic switching moves.While it was enjoyable to operate it did not fit my needs and lasted less then a year..Looking back I don't know why I even bothered building this simple ISL.
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Again like any layout a ISL design is base on the modeler givens and druthers.