Layout Design Challenge

[dehusman]

1 car per driver is a very rough estimate. A locomotive with a metal boiler and lotsa weight will do more. A plastic frame, plastic boiler engine will do less.

In any case 4% is a horrendous grade. For 50 car trains in HO conventional wisdom is not to go over 2%, 1% preferred.

If he wants to do this my suggestion is to build a huge 44-46" radius helix in the 8x8 alcove. That will allow a more gentle 1.5% grade (one lap =23 ft and 4" of rise) Every 4 laps come off with a level and put a gentle grade on the level to gain 2". That allows you to have a staging layer on top and bottom and three levels in the middle. For example a staging level at and average of 22", visible levels at 30", 46", 62" and upper staging at 78" . The majority of the visible layout will be in the 14x23 ft room. That will give you a run of 46 ft out of staging, 90 ft visible, 90 ft in a helix, 90 ft visible, 90 ft in a helix, 90 ft visible, 90 ft in a helix to staging. A total run of 585 ft, 315 hidden and 270 visible, max grade 1.5%, 4 ft aisles (except around the turnback blob), and 28" min mainline radius. Other than being a bit claustriphobic, it could be built.

Dave H.

[nfmisso]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rda1964

Dave and Nigel:

SIde question here.

Where did the 'one driver per car on a 4% grade' rule of thumb come from? I've never seen it mentioned before.

Randy

Hi Randy;

Me either. It does not take into account the vast majority of the most important variables.

You can get a fair estimate by testing on a ramp, which I have done a little of - very little. The locomotives I test far exceeded Dave's number. I was getting more than one car per driver on a 10% grade......

Alternatively, you can wiegh the loco and cars, measure drag on the flat, and pulling force on the flat, and calculate. But it is going to be independent of number of driving axles, it will be extremely dependent on the downward force (weight) on each driving axle.

[Anonymous]

Dave and Nigel:

SIde question here.

Where did the 'one driver per car on a 4% grade' rule of thumb come from? I've never seen it mentioned before.

Randy

[nfmisso]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Snake

Nigel,

Do you want track pieces, flex or any combination?

Flex is preferred; code 100 on hidden trackage, code 83 on the visible mainline, code 70 in the yards and on branches.

Thank you

[Anonymous]

Nigel,

Do you want track pieces, flex or any combination?

[nfmisso]

Dave;

There may have to be some compromises.

You are ignoring double track mainline, and the under estimating the capacity of the yards and industries.

I do not concur with your one driven axle per car for four percent, it all depends on the normal force (weight) of the locomotive on the drivers, the rolling characteristics of the cars and thier weight. If you are referring to stock Rivarossi Y6b, then you may have a case, the P2K and Oriental 2-8-8-2 are much better pullers. Not to forget the TE-1, which pulls like a pair of heavily weighted SD units.

[dehusman]

I don't see your request as being particularly realistic. I have a similar space and it will absorb about 200 cars and 12 trains on one level. It is based on the RDG so the industrail areas are fairly dense. A coal mining region would be less so. If you could do a similar density of industry it would take you about 4 or 5 levels of benchwork to accomodate. Another measure of how much you can put in a room is square footage. A 14 ft wide room will allow 1.5 feet of benchwork, 4 ft of aisle, 2 1.5 ft wide benchworks back to back, another 4 ft aisle and 1.5 ft of benchwork. So based on that average cross section a foot of run occupies about 3.5 square feet. You room has 386 sq ft, so that means you will get roughly 110 running feet of layout per level, maybe less since 20% of your space is only 8 ft wide. Your preferred train will be 25-27 ft long, so you won't have more than one or two trains per level. Assuming 1/4 of your inventory in each of staging, the main, in yards and in industry that makes 250 cars in trains that makes 5-6 trains plus at least one of those 4 passenger trains that makes 7 trains which is about 3-4 levels to accomodate the trains. In that case you will have a solid wall of trains with about 1/2 train length between them.

Maybe there is a way to fit that much in that size room but be prepared to accept some large compromises.

Dave H.

How do you plan to run 50 car trains up a 4% grade? On that basis you will need in excess of about one driver per car, 50-60 drivers, so it will take 4-5 Y-6b's to move one train. if you can do it.

[Anonymous]

Nigel,

I for one enjoy planning and doing layouts and would like the challenge. [:D]

I have a couple of questions that I either missed or weren't covered.
"submissions to be .gif or .jpg format"
Do we send submissions to you via e-mail?
Is there a cut off or due by date?

[nfmisso]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dknelson

I have the feeling that in one issue of MR or another, John Armstrong has already designed this layout! I recollect one that he called "Stomping Ground for 4-12-2s" probably published in the late 60s or early 70s.
Dave Nelson

Hi Dave,

Thank you for the suggestion, this is the one:

Stamping ground for 4-12-2's - planning for large radii
Model Railroader, April 1965 page 34
Includes 14x17 walk-in plan with large radii
( "ARMSTRONG, JOHN", TECHNIQUE, TRACKPLAN, HO, MR )

I will have to see about getting that issue.

Thank you.

[nfmisso]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rda1964


NFM:

Sorry, once again my attempt at humor missed the mark. :(

Really, I was commenting on MY slow rate of production, not yours. I produce an average of one finished project a month, 12 a year. At my rate I'll never make it to your current point. Thus I'm psychologically unable to even begin to think on a scale useful to you. I do wish you well and will read the thread with interest in hopes of gleaning ideas.

Good Luck

Randy

Hi Randy;

Sorry, I mis-understood. Jim Six has a suggestion on his e-mail list that you add something like <G> or [:D] when the note is not supposed by serious. He came up with this after a few flame wars that should not have happened if the participants had understood each other.

Have fun, and keep the steam pressure up [:D]

[nfmisso]

QUOTE: Originally posted by clinchvalley

Why not just join the LDSig. They'd love a challenge like this.

Thank youf for the idea!!!

[dknelson]

I have the feeling that in one issue of MR or another, John Armstrong has already designed this layout! I recollect one that he called "Stomping Ground for 4-12-2s" probably published in the late 60s or early 70s.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

NFM:

Sorry, once again my attempt at humor missed the mark. :(

Really, I was commenting on MY slow rate of production, not yours. I produce an average of one finished project a month, 12 a year. At my rate I'll never make it to your current point. Thus I'm psychologically unable to even begin to think on a scale useful to you. I do wish you well and will read the thread with interest in hopes of gleaning ideas.

Good Luck

Randy

[ClinchValleySD40]

Why not just join the LDSig. They'd love a challenge like this.

[nfmisso]

ACL Fan;

Actually; I am looking for ideas to combine with ones I already have.

My thoughts are a two or three layer modified dogbone, with the turn arounds a long the 23' edge (west side), that spirals up, sort of like the n-scale layout in the dining room in a recent Great MRs. (2002 or 2003). I am thinking of a yard towards one end - in the spirit of Bluefield WV where mine runs bring loaded hoppers and pickup empties, then a relatively long run over the mountains to a place in the spirit of Roanoke (engine terminal) and the load coal trains go off to staging, and empty hopper trains come out of staging. There would be industries along the route for pickups and drops of both coal and other commodities, and some passenger stations. There would a double track mainline, with some triple track on one (or more - doubtful) helper grade(s). At each end, would be a somewhat hidden return loop for continuous running.

Randy;

I already have 150 locomotives, and will be selling some of the diesels off - after we find them - we moved into our new house in Sept. I also have over 700 freight cars - after selling off the ones that do not fit my era. And there are almost 100 passenger cars.

This is a much smaller endeavor than the new VM, the old AM or Tony K's new NKP or the Maumee or Cat Mountain & SF... so it is not unrealistic.

At my present rate of finishing the basement, I expect to be starting construction some time in 2005 (probably late 2005).

[Anonymous]

I'd love to participate but; but with 1000 freight cars, 60 locomotives and assorted passenger cars, with my average build rate of 1 piece of rollingstock per month I'd never get to the point of track work.

Have you considered this reality?

Randy

[Anonymous]

Pretty creative way to get someone else to design your layout for you.

[nfmisso]

This is a challenge, there is no reward except satisfaction. The challenge is to design a layout to fit the described space with the following constraints:

submissions to be .gif or .jpg format
HO scale
30" minimum mainline radius - visible
26" minimum radius - hidden
22" minimum radius - branches
all curves must have easements
4% max grade
grade transitions (easements) of 1/2% max per foot <<<<<< changed
Peco medium and large turnouts
most turnouts with arms reach
4' foot minimum aisles
ability to handle multiple 50 car trains
space for 1000 freight cars (mostly coal hoppers, 50T and 70T)
space for 60 steam locomotives ranging from small class G 2-8-0 and USRA 0-8-0 to large: class A 2-6-6-4, class Y 2-8-8-2 and a TE-1.
Provision for four passenger trains; one with two cars, one with six and a pair with 10+, all full scale length.
continuous running is possible, but not the main feature
multi-level is encouraged
helix are not encouraged
there should be one or more helper grades - and appropriate sidings for the helper(s)
should have a large engine terminal with a 130' turntable and roundhouse
theme is Appalachian coal country, specifically N&W 1950 to 1955

I will describe the space in two ways: a rectangle 14' x 23', with an 8' x 8' added along one of the 14' ends, creating a 31'

(23+8) back wall. The other 23' is open, no doors, but an aisleway must go through this side.

2nd way: to draw the perimeter of the allowed space, starting with the SE corner, go 31' N, then 8' W, then 8' S then 6' W,

the 23' S (this is the open side), and finally 14' E.

The control system is Digitrax, with radio throttles.

I hope that someone will volunteer to post the winner and any other submissions on the web for all to see, as I am not yet savy in that area of computers.

I am the sole and final judge, but I encourage positive critics. By supplying your design, you are sharing it with the public, and no compensation will be provided.

If anyone in the area wants to help build and/or run after it is built, let me know.