joe-daddy wrote: I added your blog to myblog roll. You be an interesting fellow!
I added your blog to myblog roll. You be an interesting fellow!
aww, shucks ...
joe-daddy wrote: Peace and good will,
Peace and good will,
Likewise.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyama wrote: joe-daddy wrote: I can see how proud you are to be from San Francisco, the way you keep your location anonymous here on trains.com,Since I posted earlier in this very thread ... cuyama wrote: A number of layouts I've been involved with here in the bay area are built with foam,... I would seem to be doing a very poor job of keeping my location anonymous.
joe-daddy wrote: I can see how proud you are to be from San Francisco, the way you keep your location anonymous here on trains.com,
Since I posted earlier in this very thread ...
cuyama wrote: A number of layouts I've been involved with here in the bay area are built with foam,
A number of layouts I've been involved with here in the bay area are built with foam,
... I would seem to be doing a very poor job of keeping my location anonymous.
Joe
cuyama wrote: joe-daddy wrote: Don't be so sure of yourself, I doubt you have the same polictical climate that exists in San Francisco. Oh yes, of course ... living in Colorado, you doubtless know so much more about the political climate of the bay area than does someone like me who merely _lives_ in the bay area.Good grief.
joe-daddy wrote: Don't be so sure of yourself, I doubt you have the same polictical climate that exists in San Francisco.
Don't be so sure of yourself, I doubt you have the same polictical climate that exists in San Francisco.
Oh yes, of course ... living in Colorado, you doubtless know so much more about the political climate of the bay area than does someone like me who merely _lives_ in the bay area.
Good grief.
Thanks for the personal attack! I can see how proud you are to be from San Francisco, the way you keep your location anonymous here on trains.com, I thought you were from Arizona or some other dry and hot locale.
on30francisco wrote: I hear you loud and clear! I have tried amost everywhere in The Bay Area trying to get this product. I had to settle for the old standby - homasote. If anyone has any info on where to get the foam, please let me know.
I hear you loud and clear! I have tried amost everywhere in The Bay Area trying to get this product. I had to settle for the old standby - homasote. If anyone has any info on where to get the foam, please let me know.
You mean besides the reources that have already been mentioned in this thread: Pacific Supply in the east bay and So SF and using the dealer finders I mentioned above?
BNSF4ever wrote:I'm building a new shelf layout and almost certainly need foam board or something to lay on top of the plywood because of the various heights of the tables and shelves that line my apartment so everything can be relatively level.The only problem is that in the San Francisco Bay Area, finding extruded insulation foam board is next to impossible and if you do find it in a craft shop, you only find one or two pieces.So if that is out, what else can I use as a material?I hear you loud and clear! I have tried amost everywhere in The Bay Area trying to get this product. I had to settle for the old standby - homasote. If anyone has any info on where to get the foam, please let me know.
I'm building a new shelf layout and almost certainly need foam board or something to lay on top of the plywood because of the various heights of the tables and shelves that line my apartment so everything can be relatively level.
The only problem is that in the San Francisco Bay Area, finding extruded insulation foam board is next to impossible and if you do find it in a craft shop, you only find one or two pieces.
So if that is out, what else can I use as a material?
Lillen wrote: Just trying to make it a bit more complicated. It is not always as easy as the environmental lobby works hard to make it sound.
Just trying to make it a bit more complicated. It is not always as easy as the environmental lobby works hard to make it sound.
You said a mouthful there! Without trying to turn this political, it is certainly true that in many, many instances appearances can be deceiving. A hybrid car sounds good, but what about the manufacture and disposal of the batteries? Hydrogen, nice, but where did the energy come to extract it? The easy cases, and the ones that are often the easiest, are when we don't do something, or do it less, rather than substitute something else.
Anyway, back to the railroad discussion. In the amounts that we use them in our railroads, I'd say that the impact of whether we use foam or wood probably makes very little difference. On the other hand, saving that 40 mile round trip I make into town when I don't have something I need by planning ahead a bit does make a difference! Now I just need to plan ahead!
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
joe-daddy wrote: Actually, I'm right on, were not talking about insulation, we are talking about using an excellent insulation product for supporting a trainset, something that other, environmentally friendly and renewable resources will do equally, if not better. That makes modeler use of foam a liability to the environment, but then who cares, right? Sawdust as an insulation? Very interesting. Peace and good will to all!Joe
Actually, I'm right on, were not talking about insulation, we are talking about using an excellent insulation product for supporting a trainset, something that other, environmentally friendly and renewable resources will do equally, if not better. That makes modeler use of foam a liability to the environment, but then who cares, right? Sawdust as an insulation? Very interesting.
Peace and good will to all!
In this regard you are right, atleast partially, it would depend on how much energy that went into the production of the different materials. I will give you an example for myself. I use a lot of foam now. That is partially because I couldn't transport the plywood without going round trips and get a wagon to pull them on due to their size, that would have made me use about 22 litres of fuel. Since I could buy the foam and just put in the back of my car I saved all those litres just picking it up, but that was of course only me and do not apply to most people. All though it is probably easier to store and transport for most. Also, wood do get transported and extracting plywood is a rather expensive and energy consuming process.
Wood gets logged, transported and uses up a LOT of petroleum to become what it becomes. Sure so does oil, but there is very little oil that goes into the production of a foam board and I'm not sure how this would compare to plywood. Where I live is an area based around sawmills and paper mills. They use tremendous amounts of energy, simply staggering amounts. But to think that all wood products are good for the environment and all petroleum products are worse is not true.
I could also ad that as I said my house is insulated of sawdust from local forests and is heated by the wood(from within a mile of my house) that don't get used by the sawmills. I use 0% of oil or electricity to heat my house. It is all natural and renewable so I can't say that I don't like to use wood myself.
Magnus
Lillen wrote: joe-daddy wrote:Don't be so sure of yourself, I doubt you have the same polictical climate that exists in San Francisco. I'm surprised they will allow an SUV to be registered there. Regardless, foam is not earth friendly. . . Joe Quite the opposite actually. Think about the amount of oil you SAVE when using less electricity for either heating or air conditioning. If anything one of the best things you can do for the environment is to insulate your house MORE and get the long time consumption of non renewable resources down. Ofcourse, my own house use sawdust for this being situated in northern Sweden, I somehow doubt that that would be as practical in Arizona or California and indeed we are moving away from it since it's an old method.Magnus
joe-daddy wrote:Don't be so sure of yourself, I doubt you have the same polictical climate that exists in San Francisco. I'm surprised they will allow an SUV to be registered there. Regardless, foam is not earth friendly. . . Joe
Quite the opposite actually. Think about the amount of oil you SAVE when using less electricity for either heating or air conditioning. If anything one of the best things you can do for the environment is to insulate your house MORE and get the long time consumption of non renewable resources down. Ofcourse, my own house use sawdust for this being situated in northern Sweden, I somehow doubt that that would be as practical in Arizona or California and indeed we are moving away from it since it's an old method.
I took a LOOK-SEE at this website www.cstsales.com
Yes they have the various kinds of foam, but QUITE PRICEY!!! The high strength foam is for like competition sailplane wings that you use electric winches that almost literally have the potential to rip the wings off a sailplane because of the speeds the winches reach as the winch pulls the sailplane into the sky like a jet plane!!!!NOT really what you want for a model train setup.HOWEVER, if you really want to use just foam and no plywood underneath, and make it SUPER-STRONG, lay a layer of fiberglass on one side of the foam, but that's expensive, but you won't be able to break it easily. Positive side of this is it will be lighter than plywood if you ever want to move it, and stronger than plywood.I sometimes used to get scrap foam from construction sites. I always asked first, and one contractor was also a model builder with both airplanes and trains, and we became friends, and still do train stuff together.Our first deal was a bunch of FREE pink foam in exchange that I cut a foam model airplane wing for him. Basically a NO-BRAINER deal!
TheK4Kid
No offense taken--the folks on here are mostly good people! It's just that when it comes to this hobby, I do not enjoy the carpentry part. I much more enjoy the operations.
I did see a post on a model airplane forum that listed a site called The Composites Store (www.cstsales.com). They are selling 2 in foam called "Hot Wire Foam High Strength" at reasonable costs and they do ship. Does anyone know if this foam is simular to Foamular?
BNSF4ever wrote:Wow what a response!snip and limited carpentry skills. snipmy carpentry skills or lack thereof snip
Wow what a response!
snip
and limited carpentry skills.
my carpentry skills or lack thereof
Therein lies the beauty of model railroading, it gives us good reasons to learn new skills and to buy new tools, yes, new tools, more tools. . .
I do hear you loud and clear.
Best and no offense intened!
cuyama wrote: joe-daddy wrote: I'll offer a reason and rationale why San Fran may make foam hard to find, it comes from oil, not a renewable resource like plywood, homasote or soundboard.That's got nothing to do with it, Foamboard's just not used as much in construction in our warm climate.
joe-daddy wrote: I'll offer a reason and rationale why San Fran may make foam hard to find, it comes from oil, not a renewable resource like plywood, homasote or soundboard.
I'll offer a reason and rationale why San Fran may make foam hard to find, it comes from oil, not a renewable resource like plywood, homasote or soundboard.
That's got nothing to do with it, Foamboard's just not used as much in construction in our warm climate.
Don't be so sure of yourself, I doubt you have the same polictical climate that exists in San Francisco. I'm surprised they will allow an SUV to be registered there. Regardless, foam is not earth friendly. . .
tstage wrote: joe-daddy wrote:Perhaps the best overall roadbed of all time is homasote over plywood...Holds track nails wonderfully, cuts as easily as foam with some fuzz dust which I find easy to vacuum up.Joe,Doesn't homasote have a natural inclination/propensity to soak up moisture? What happens when you want to lay/set ballast? Are there precautions that need to be taken so that the homasote doesn't absorb too much of the water/glue mixture while scenicking?Tom
joe-daddy wrote:Perhaps the best overall roadbed of all time is homasote over plywood...Holds track nails wonderfully, cuts as easily as foam with some fuzz dust which I find easy to vacuum up.
Perhaps the best overall roadbed of all time is homasote over plywood...Holds track nails wonderfully, cuts as easily as foam with some fuzz dust which I find easy to vacuum up.
Joe,
Doesn't homasote have a natural inclination/propensity to soak up moisture? What happens when you want to lay/set ballast? Are there precautions that need to be taken so that the homasote doesn't absorb too much of the water/glue mixture while scenicking?
Tom
I don't know, Tom, I paint my soundboard to seal it first, although I'm not sure that moisture is much of an issue during the scenicking part unless one is trying to build a water feature.
JOe
loathar wrote: cuyama wrote: joe-daddy wrote: I'll offer a reason and rationale why San Fran may make foam hard to find, it comes from oil, not a renewable resource like plywood, homasote or soundboard.That's got nothing to do with it, Foamboard's just not used as much in construction in our warm climate.Sorry, I've had my pot of coffee now...I don't see it used much here in Tn. either. They just built 3 home next to me and I was thinking-Oh BOY!! FOAM SCRAPS! They didn't use a single piece. The home stores here do stock it though.Doesn't foam help keep heat out too?keeps heat and cold out ( ice chest! ). some builders use it others don,t. I live in the desert. When I built my house I used 2x6 studs for all exterior walls, wraped with that chicken wire black paper, 1 inch foam, scratch coat, brown coat, color coat. Construction sites offer many items for a layout and General contractors will give you the scraps as long as you don,t make a mess and ask permission first. They have to take it to a dump anyway. wood, wire, foam, extra drywall mud,Screws on the ground , sometimes extra paint. Just don,t steal it, big fines if your caught. glenn (painting contractor)
Sorry, I've had my pot of coffee now...I don't see it used much here in Tn. either. They just built 3 home next to me and I was thinking-Oh BOY!! FOAM SCRAPS! They didn't use a single piece. The home stores here do stock it though.Doesn't foam help keep heat out too?
keeps heat and cold out ( ice chest! ). some builders use it others don,t. I live in the desert. When I built my house I used 2x6 studs for all exterior walls, wraped with that chicken wire black paper, 1 inch foam, scratch coat, brown coat, color coat. Construction sites offer many items for a layout and General contractors will give you the scraps as long as you don,t make a mess and ask permission first. They have to take it to a dump anyway. wood, wire, foam, extra drywall mud,Screws on the ground , sometimes extra paint. Just don,t steal it, big fines if your caught.
glenn (painting contractor)
loathar wrote:Doesn't foam help keep heat out too?
Yep. Pretty much every house I've seen built in the Tucson area has a layer of foam on it. Unfortunately they almost universally use the white stuff, so not so good for scrap scavenging!
I live in an apartment so that really limits my options. I would have liked to have built a shelf layout but I doubt my landlord would have enjoyed tons of screw holes in the walls. I did try one section just the same and the studs were so limited or perhaps deep in the wall that using shelves was never going to work.
There are two other problems in my bedroom. There is a hallway and a doorway to be overcome. I don't want a traditional shelf layout which has no runthrough track. I would like to have a few trains running in circles while I do other operations.
What I have is a hodgepodge so far based on my space, limited budget, and limited carpentry skills.
On one side, I have two four-foot high tables which are 2 x 4 feet for a total of 2 x 8. I have extended the one table using two brackets and a 2 x 2. Thus, the total length of that side is 10 feet. On the right side, I plan on putting in a 4 x 7 foot table (4 x 8 won't fit). On the side closest to the door, I built another 2 x 4 table and used brackets to extend it with a 2 x 2 to make it 6 feet. I plan on buiding a removable "bridge" using an angled piece from 1 x 5. This will have two bolts on each end which will fit into brackets on the tables and shelves that it connects to. This way I can pull it up and out when not in use to get access to the door.
On the last side of my room, I have the only shelf section, which is 2 x 2. It connects to a 1 x 5 plank which connects in the same way as just described to the 2 x 10 set of tables first mentioned.
Out of all these components, not all are level. This is due to a) my carpentry skills or lack thereof and b) the one shelf is mounted in about the only place on the wall that will hold it in the studs.
So if you follow all that, I am hoping to use foamular to make up some of the difference in height as well as being able to use it to cut into for things like a small creek.
My layout will never win any awards from Model Railroader but I feel it's the best I can do with my budget and my living circumstances.
BNSF4ever wrote: I'm building a new shelf layout and almost certainly need foam board or something to lay on top of the plywood because of the various heights of the tables and shelves that line my apartment so everything can be relatively level.
I think you have a problem other than finding foam. Even if you lay foam on top of the plywood the surface will still be uneven. It seems to me that the real question is how do you get the layout surface level or how do I get the layout surface to where I want it even if the supports aren't level.From that standpoint I would suggest an open grid type benchwork with bolt on "mini-legs". Put a T nut and carrige bolt in the bottom of each leg to level the layout. You can adjust the lengths of the legs to fit the various surfaces each grid section rests on. Best news: If you move you can unbolt the mini-legsand replace them with longer legs to make a free standing layout. Or if you move you can adjust the height of the mini-legs to match the new supports. If you cut the foam to match the suport heights and you move the layouts will be uneven again unless you get the exact match of support heights. By making the layout level and using the legs to adjust the height you gain waaaay more flexibility with very little increas in complexity. Search for "modular layout" design or construction and look at how their legs are made. Just make the legs 4-6 in tall instead of 40" tall.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
tstage wrote: Doesn't homasote have a natural inclination/propensity to soak up moisture?
Doesn't homasote have a natural inclination/propensity to soak up moisture?
Urban legend, apparently. The Homasote company recently did a test where they left the stuff outdoors in New Jersey for a couple of years with little change.http://www.homasote.com/strength/index.html
loathar wrote:Move.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
cuyama,
You might want to try aircraft supply dealers, it is used in a lot of composite aircraft applications, and especially in radio control model aircraft projects.I also build and fly RC airplanes, and have many friends scattered al over California who use it regularly, both pink and blue foam, actually the same stuff.They cut wings for large scale model airplanes and sailplanes(gliders) from foam.
Check with any of your local hobby shops to see if they know of any suppliers.
Good luck!Ed
ha ha, good one,
construction site, new homes? Stucco guys sometimes wrap the house with foam before they scratch and brown coat. There's always scraps and extras in the trash pile. Call a STUCCO company and see if they have some. it might only be 1 inch thick but you can white glue or hot glue it together.
glenn
Certainly there are places to find foam, however, I will echo what several others have said and suggest you consider other alternatives.
Perhaps the best overall roadbed of all time is homasote over plywood. IF you cannot find homasote, you may be able to find Soundbord, which, at my North Denver area Lowes AND HD is 1/2" thick, coming in 4*8 sheets at just under $10 bucks. Holds track nails wonderfully, cuts as easily as foam with some fuzz dust which I find easy to vacuum up.
On my layout I have found foam to be useful only for mountain profile boards and for flat areas being scenic'd, like foundatins of buildings etc.
My 2 cents worth nothing more.