anyone using real water

[FJ and G]

I know all the dire warnings that water and electronics don't mix and that fake water looks more real than real water,

But, I'm going ahead anyway with plans for a 30 foot reinforced concret (chicken wire) river, topped with Envirotex.

I'm gonna look for a submersible pump to put in a pail of water and feed an outlet and inlet tube

I'm modeling Abo Canyon at Flood stage, btw.

When the pump is off, the river will be dry.

Abo is 1.25 % grade but I don't know if that's enough for the water to flow smoothly so I'll experiment and may make the grade 2 or 2.5 % if necessary.

I'd welcome hearing from other water enthusiasts.

[cacole]

Keep the grade low so the water flows slowly -- real water flows too fast for a realistic appearance in modeling, unless you are trying to model a raging flood. Real water looks OK outdoors in a garden scale layout, but the smaller the scale the more unrealistic it becomes.

[dave9999]

I tried this myself using a small fountain pump from Wal-Mart and paintable
silicone in the river bed. It was a small waterfall and about two feet of river
before it ran off the side of the layout and into a bucket. I did not leak, but the
water was not as realistic as I would have liked. This was on my prior layout
and I don't think I will try it on my current project. IF you do build a working
river I suggest dying the water a brownish shade so it will appear more
realistic. The water is almost invisible otherwise. Dave

[IRONROOSTER]

The biggest drawback to real water is the humidity. Assuming you are talking an actual (as opposed to scale) 30 feet that's a lot of surface area and even though you won't leave standing water, still it will be wet and will evaporate. You might want to run a dehumidifier in the train room. I already have to run a dehumidifier in my basement train room, so real water is out of the question for me.
Enjoy
Paul

[FJ and G]

thx for your replies.

Dave,

I forgot to mention it but I am planning to dye the water brown. After all, have you ever seen a desert freshet with clear water? It would be cool to add clay sediments to naturally brown the water but that could clog up the pump.

The stream will actually begin as a waterfalls in my daughter's bedroom (i negotiated with her to put the turnaround loop there--it's a point to point design with the other return loop a helix going around the HVAC unit in the storage room).

Her bedroom, btw, is in the basement, which i just finished. I'm adding thunder sounds with my cd and random flashes from a strob lite for lightning. Daughter (17) is an artist. I'm having her paint foreboding thunderclouds on the walls. I've actually done this technique on my last layout and it is very convincing.

[dave9999]

Sounds impressive!

Good luck, Dave

[Anonymous]

I remember seeing this done years ago when I was a kid and was awe struck, however knowing what I know now and what is on the market for making simulated water I would be hesitant. Here’s why:

Unless you are using marine epoxy or a rubber liner, water will eventually break down paint or sealer. Marine Paints and epoxies are extremely toxic and could take time to off gas.

Water will promote algae unless treated. I was fortunate to have been invited to the set of Theodore Tugboat several years ago and they had the set constructed in a school gymnasium. They mixed in Blue toilet bowl cleaner to solve this problem and to give the water a deep blue colour. It looked good but believe it or not at 1/48 scale the water though real did not behave to scale, I know it sounds silly.

Humidity as already mentioned will be the killer. I live in a “maritime climate” and if the dehumidifier isn’t kept running over 8 months of the year or when my wife hangs several suits to dry in the basement without the dehumidifier running I am faced with major derailments

The best water effects that I have seen was in Great Model Layouts 1995 or 96 if I’m not mistaken. The layout was done by a gentleman by the last name of Parker. He created a perfect rendition of brackish water on his Northern Pacific layout, It was real as real gets (and not be real).

[michaelstevens]

[:D][:D]
I thought that I had heard it all.
Modelling (brown) water sports !! -- Whatever next ??
[;)][;)]
I just hope to hell you're going to make it soundless -- its beginning to read more and more like the makings of an elaborate Chinese torture !!
[:0][:0]
I mean ; surely all you really want is for the prisoner to talk !!
[:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

Have at it, but you will be disappointed.

1:1 scale water does not look nor act like 1:87 scale water. It will look fake. Guaranteed.

It'll also take a lot of time and effort to build and maintain, time that could be spent on trains, scenery, structures, etc.

But hey, go ahead--it won't take too long to tear it all out when you see what it looks like!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Fergus


The best water effects that I have seen was in Great Model Layouts 1995 or 96 if I’m not mistaken. The layout was done by a gentleman by the last name of Parker. He created a perfect rendition of brackish water on his Northern Pacific layout, It was real as real gets (and not be real).

It was MR's Great Model Railroads 95 and the Gentleman was Jack Parker. He built what I consider to be a dream layout.

[der5997]

ACL fan comments "1:1 scale water does not look nor act like 1:87 scale water. It will look fake. Guaranteed", an observation shared by others. I wonder if the problem is viscosity. If you must have real water, how about trying to make it a bit thicker with glycerine? (You'll have that on hand of course for keeping your natural trees made from weeds supple [:-^])

[lupo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by der5997

ACL fan comments "1:1 scale water does not look nor act like 1:87 scale water. It will look fake. Guaranteed", an observation shared by others. I wonder if the problem is viscosity. If you must have real water, how about trying to make it a bit thicker with glycerine? (You'll have that on hand of course for keeping your natural trees made from weeds supple [:-^])

I think you must not make it thicker to look 1:87 but thinner than it is, the natural viscosity creates waves around stuff that are to big, if you stand on top off a cliff the waves down beneath look like they are just 1 or 2 milimeters (sorry I'm dutch) high
anyone who studies Physics on this subject??

[FJ and G]

I'm not a chemist, but IMO, you must make it thicker and you must make it thinner. I don't think that is possible.

Why thicker? At scale, the water needs to flow more slowly.

Why thinner? Water tends to clump at the edges (same effect you get when filling a glass of water to the brim and the H2O bonds at the edges.

Possibly, you could get thicker and thinner by using an oil that doesn't bond. However, I don't know what that would do to the water pump. Maybe too heavy for it?

Maybe oil and vinager (like Salad Oil) would be perfect. The vinegar gives it the thinness & the oil gives it the thickness and slows the flow.

Anyway, I think coloring the water brownish might help with the illusion. I'm realistic enough to know that resin or epoxy water is more real that water water. However, it is the movement of the flowing water and the gurgling sounds it makes that make it worthwhile to me.

[Anonymous]

You want to go thinner and that would require a medium less dense (less Specific Gravity) than water and as a mariner who has had to sit and do stability calculations there's only one medium that would fit the bill


ALCOHOL

Have fun!!!

[lupo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Fergus

You want to go thinner and that would require a medium less dense (less Specific Gravity) than water and as a mariner who has had to sit and do stability calculations there's only one medium that would fit the bill


ALCOHOL

Have fun!!!

[:D]And can't we call a lay-out using Alcohol for Water the RIVER of ILL REPUTE???[:D]

[Anonymous]

There was an article in MR a few years back (can't be much more specific, all of my issues of MR are in a plastic container in a storage
locker 10 mile away) The article was mid 80's early 90's if I remember. The fellow had constructed an awsome layout with real water,
and a railbarge which went from one side of the river/lake to the other. He had to heavily dye the water for realism sake - it looked
quite good, but if I remember the article correctly, the base for the water was quite heavy.

Ken[:)]

[Anonymous]

There is a Kalmbach publication entitled "realistic animation, lighting, and sound" (or something to that effect; this was a collection of MR articles, but I'm not sure what original issue the article appeared in), there was a good article in there about animated water. It wasnt real water, but looked pretty neat.

It involved using a light that shined through some plexiglass or something from under the layout. It also involved using some type of streamers and a fan that, along with the light, created a glimmering effect. Looked pretty cool and I've wanted to try it. That might be an alternative to using real water.