Informal Poll: Current generation of modelers, competent?

[Anonymous]

Tony,

Likewise -- thansk for being gracious.

Jon

[SpaceMouse]

I thought I'd give a rookie's evaluation.

I have not seen a lot of work except in photos and magazines.

I would say that the vast majority of the photos I've seen are or plastic kits that are unaltered or even painted let alone weathered. But that is the type of kit/ RTR structures that are being offered. Occasionally I buy form estates sales through eBay and I find the stuff to be sub-my-standard in terms of the quality of workmanship. Either there is no paint and bad gluing or it is painted badly. I think that the majority of model railroaders just want to run trains and to heck with the fine details.

These train runners are where the kits are geared for the most part.

On the other hand there are a minority of model railroaders that are "modeling" as specific era and local. The available kits are generic and there really isn't what the modeler needs for his layout. This forces the modeler to be a kitbasher or scratch builder. And usually if the the person is confident enough to give it a shot, he is also competent.

Like for me. I need 3 2-6-2 Baldwin Saddle tankers, because that's what the California Western ran. No one makes them. What I feel is my best shot is to go with old 0-6-0 MDC kits off of eBay and add front and rear trucks. I can't use the Spectrum 0-6-0 because it is an Alco.

So I am forced to become a kit basher. No one makes a sawmill like I need so I will have to scratch build that. I think I'm going to have to scratch build figures like John Allen did, because there's just nothing like what I need available. (If you've got any ideas I'm open. The idea of using wax, well there has to be better materials available these days.)

So to answer your question. I agree with Crandall. The more things change the more the stay the same.

[AntonioFP45]

Alco_fan (Jon)

Thanks, No problema!

I reacted in a "knee jerk" fashion and should have used common sense. I went back and deleted that particular reply to you.

High Greens!

[grayfox1119]

This is a loaded question. In days of old, there were not the array of hand tools, or handy portable electrical tools that todays modelers have, making the job faster and neater. I don't feel that todays modelers are any better, or skilled than those of yester year. The ability of any modeler is comprised of several factors: Inate abilities, dexterity, creativity, financial situation to a degree, ability to use tools, time, experience, and I am sure that I could list more, but you get the point.
All things being equal, a young modeler possessing all the attributes listed above, going head to head with an older modeler having the SAME attributes, I would expect the same results.

[Rotorranch]

JMHO....I think the current generation of modelers is at least as competent, if not more so, than the older ones. There are some younger folks out there doing great modeling work.

That being said, there are far less modelers in the current generation. I sell very few kits at my store, and mostly to older customers. Very few of the younger generation are into building things. Most are into "instant gratification", that is, take it out of the box and play with it.

Rotor

[Pruitt]

I think current modelers are competent in different areas than past modelers. While scratchbuilders are perhaps more rare, and "out-of-the-box-right-onto-the-layout" modelers are certainly more prevalent, very few of the past modelers would be as ready to deal with the higher-tech end of the hobby than there are now.

As the state of the art shifts, there are corresponding shifts in comptentcies in any field. For example, there are fewer folks competent to drive a horse-and-buggy around than there were a hundred years ago, and far more who are competent to drive cars now than there were back then (although when I get stuck in rush hour traffic I wonder about that last part! [:)]).

[Anonymous]

Forty years ago, craftsman kits,were quality craft,silver streak ,ulrich, I've probally left out others,athearns bb are hardly kits compared to those, but if you look back at older model mags a lot of layouts were snap track on unballasted cork roadbed going in circles. Each generation has had significant improvements in modeling, as each person developes in the hobby they get better at what they do, some people never weather because they're either affraid of ruining the model or it losing value> This hobby is to diverse to speculate competency,what's the bar to measure from?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

One sees very little in the hobby magazines regarding what the current generation of modelers is doing or is cabable of, so how can anyone possibly pass any valid judgement?

You must have missed all those articles on what the Railroad Prototype Modelers (RPM) folks are doing. Many of these are relatively young (20s to 40s) and are doing work that far surpasses the old-timey "let's use an office staple for a stirrup" modeling, IMHO.

Jon

[selector]

Each hobby's members are AS competent, generally (no more, no less, as a group) than the ones that came before. By what other standard do you evaluate them except that each generation deals with the tools of the trade, and with its materials and concepts.

For example, very few of us ever change a belt in a loco..right? But you could argue that it was a skill, or at least a task, that 'competent' modelers performed. On the other hand, how many of the old-timers (hats off, please) spent their time intalling decoders or scuplting foam?

We still have folks scratchbuilding whatever they need that isn't readily available for a very few dollars. They still insist upon detailing and weathering. Some do, some don't, just like 60 years ago.

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

[Anonymous]

Yes, The new ways of EZ trains is for the new comers (mostly small children). The more interested we get in this hobby the more detail we start to want in our layouts.
We all were new to this hobby at one time or another.I am thankfull we all can learn from others in the hobby from forums like this one. I am getting to the point now where I am willing to try new (or old) ways of building items for my layout.
The main thing is we are all trying to injoy the hobby of watching and controling trains.
I am very glad that I came across this hobby and this website, it has help build up my confedence to the point that I will have a nice layout when come pleated (Some year).
ennout

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

I bring back interesting topics whenever I see that we have a batch of new members on the forum. They, IMHO, may find the topics interesting. So rather than posting a new topic repeatedly, it's easier to have them look at one that was posted already.

OK, I'll happily accept that different people have different views of appropriate forum etiquette.

On many other forums (not necessarily railroad related), it's considered courteous to accompli***he same thing as follows

(begin example post)

A year ago we had an interesting conversation about the competency of modelers
[insert link here]

I've been thinking more about this and I believe that the competency of modelers is going downhill because of the Union Pacific, Wal-mart, the failure of network TV to move beyond the banality of reality programming .... etc., etc.

(end example post)

An alternative way of doing the same thing, for what it is worth.

Jon

[Anonymous]

It may not be a fair statement to say that today's generation of modellers is less competent the yesteryear's generation. It would be fair to say that we certainly get less practice than the preceeding generations. But that's not our fault.

There's a double standard in in the way this is perceived. We don't have to scratch build everything because of advancements in manufacturing fought for and devoloped by the preceeding generation of modellers, who were themselves looking for easier ways to do things in the hobby. Because of their labours we no longer have to sweat all the details. And for some reason this is frowned upon by a group of purests.

If somebody wants to have all of their structures, loco's, and freight prebuilt R-T-R, so be it. Who's to say it's right or wrong? Neither is the correct answer. To be honest with you I have bought built-ups and kits. I was left feeling kind of flat after I received my built-ups in the mail. Open the box and it's done. Where's the hobby in that? Personally I prefer kits for my structures and freight, but not my loco's. I'm glad some one else sweated the details in making these things for me. Now I can get on which running trains.

Trevor [2c]

[Javern]

seems to me a matter of competancy is very judgemental, while I may think my work is perfect another member of the hobby may think my work is lacking. I feel if the individual is content with his or her work that is the important thing.

[CNJ831]

A very difficult question even to assess. Posters keep stating how good layouts look today but, in the great part, these are being built by individuals who have long been in the hobby...not the relative newcomers of the current generation. One sees very little in the hobby magazines regarding what the current generation of modelers is doing or is cabable of, so how can anyone possibly pass any valid judgement?

I will say that if one goes simply by logic, than the modelers of past generations would have to have been better, hands down, as they needed far greater modeling skills than today's hobbyists just to get a layout to a near-complete, operating, state. Kit building, kit-bashing, scratchbuilding, airbrushing, et al., required a lot more raw talent and creativity than what is necessary today to accomplish about the same ends.

CNJ831

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by alco_fan

Antonio,

What's the story resurrecting these topics from a year ago? Kind of annoying to have to scroll though all the old deadwood to find something new.

I notice some of the other "insiders" doing this as well. Is this suposed to be funny?

Why in the world would you think that this is supposed to be funny?

I bring back interesting topics whenever I see that we have a batch of new members on the forum. They, IMHO, may find the topics interesting. So rather than posting a new topic repeatedly, it's easier to have them look at one that was posted already.

Deadwood? I've never viewed the scores of replies as "DeadWood"! There have been topics that I've seen in the back pages that I actually never got to read. I check it out and if the info is interesting, I bring it up to page one as my thinking is that others here will find it interesting as well.

What is the big deal? If one doesn't find the topic interesting.......bypass it and move on.

QUOTE: I think it would be more interesting to start a new topic so we didn't have to wade through all the old stuff

Wade?! Through what? With all respect to you...if this bugs you.....Then start a topic!

QUOTE: but maybe I'm just too unhip to understand why this is cool.

Never thought about it being cool..........my thought is sharing intelligent info with my fellow modelers. Can't be any plainer than that![:)][:D][;)][8D]

As always, Peace and High Greens.[;)]

[dgwinup]

QUOTE: Originally posted by alco_fan

Antonio,

What's the story resurrecting these topics from a year ago? Kind of annoying to have to scroll though all the old deadwood to find something new.

I notice some of the other "insiders" doing this as well. Is this suposed to be funny? I think it would be more interesting to start a new topic so we didn't have to wade through all the old stuff ... but maybe I'm just too unhip to understand why this is cool.

Jon

Jon,
I don't remember when I joined this forum, but it was probably less than a year ago. That being the case, I don't mind much when someone bumps an old thread to the top. Many of them are of no particular interest to me, but in most cases, I like to read the origins of the thread so I have a better understanding of the topic under discussion.

I don't find it difficult to scroll through the deadwood. There a many posts that are only weeks old and I have already read them from the beginning, so since each post is dated at the top, it is easy to scroll down to the newest date and pick up from there.

As to modeling skills, mine have improved considerably over the years. I started out with a Lionel layout my Dad put together. Just a green sheet of plywood and spaghetti tracks, but for a kid, it was fun. Later I discovered HO and even later, N. I was always into building something so I bought and/or received lots of kits as a kid. Didn't matter what the kit was, train, plane, boat or car, I loved building them. Stick-built planes with tissue paper wings, to metal bodied cars and boats, to motorized anything, I had fun and learned a lot in the process!

Model railroading has become an extension of my youthful pastimes. I love the kits, build almost anything (but mostly railroad-related now) and have a soft spot for buildings in particular. Most of the buildings are modified (kit-bashed) in some way which makes them unique to my layout.

So I like the history of the threads most of the time, and I find great satisfaction in building a layout and using or acquiring all the attendant skills necessary to do so. That's what I find so enjoyable about this hobby.

The only problem I have with old threads is that by the time you read through them, the original topic has changed to something different. I think those should be restarted with new threads, but sometimes the change is so gradual that finding the place to restart is difficult.

I just try to get enjoyment out of the hobby any way that I can. Not all of it has the same interest to me. I just keep looking, skipping around and finding stuff to absorb.

Am I a world-class modeler? Heavens, NO! Am I competent? Yes, for as much as I need to be to please myself. Do I rank up there with the best? Of course....in my mind!

Hope you find better enjoyment in these discussions. There's a lot there. Sometimes you have to wade through the swamp to find the best fishing hole.

Darrell, too wordy, but quiet...for now

[JohnT14808]

Yes, with today's electronics, DCC, tv on a flat car...I'd say modellers today are more competent. They also have more to play with!! More opportunities to try something new, experiment with weathering powders....and they do!!! Scratch build like the 'G' layout that is currently in series in the October MR. I USED to think you buy a building kit and then build the building. It's like Tony K. doesn't WANT the bulding, so he kitbashes most of the structures on the layout! That's modeling at it's best, and I'd like to think that we all do a very competent job of it....and have fun too!!

[MisterBeasley]

This is my second time around. No, not re-incarnation, but maybe it's re-in-train-nation. My layout was in boxes for 40 years, and now it's back. Not the brass track, not the belt-drive Athearns, but the rest is there.

I'm more competent than ever. I've got more patience, and better tools to do the job. I've got better materials, and better guidance. I'm having a second childhood building my layout, and I'm constantly inventing techniques for my models and scenes. I don't require instant gratification, and if it takes a month to build a scene, well, it takes a month.

I look at the Weekend and Mid-Week Photo Fun threads. If there is any doubt that the MR-types of this generation are true craftsmen, check them out and lay those doubts to rest.

[Anonymous]

That depends on which area of MRRing you're referring to. As far as scratchbuilding goes, maybe, maybe not. True, it isn't as necessary as it once was, with built-up kits, etc. As far as the digitalization of MRRing goes, I think the current generation is definitely ahead, both in openness to new technology and computer knowledge and skill.

Personally I think the question is kinda snobbish. At the same time though, I do understand the concern about the loss of certain skills in a drive-thru, need-it-yesterday society. But isn't that what this forum is for?? Sure, there are Model RR clubs, but not everyone has one near them, and some, like the one near me, have a reputation for being cliquish (if you're not a Lionel man, yer nothin! kinda mentality).

So find an "incompetent" modeler, and be a pal. Pass on what you know. But try not to come off as a know it all.

[dehusman]

I guess "competent" is a subjective thing.

I think there is a lot more information out there now that is easier to find than there was 30 years ago. There are a lot more specific models out there now and modelers are more discerning on what they want.

So on one hand the awareness is much higher in the general population and the people that are doing fine modeling, modifying resin kits, etc, are producing better models. And with the better plastic and resin kits you can assemble cars that rival the work of the best scratchbuilders from the 50's, 60's and 70's.

On the other hand, I see a higher number of people wanting instant gratification. RTR instead of kits. The death of undecorated models. Plug an play instead of hard wire. People buying weathered cars. People wanting their layouts to be designed for them. People wanting a 1 page summary on how to operate with train orders.

What I see is not a lack of competancy, but a stratification of the hobby. 30 years ago everybody was in the same boat. Scratchbuild or buy a kit. Now there are more options. I see the hobby stratifying. There will be a group that are more like "collectors" who buy RTR and assemble the pieces into a model railroad and then a layer of "craftsmen" who spend their time building models. A really rough analogy would be the difference between the O tinplate crowd and and the O scale crowd.

The model manufacturers need to recognize that and be able to market to both groups. The lack of plastic kits and undecorated models is liable to drive the "craftsmen" out of the plastic model market and into scratchbuilding or resin kits.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

Here are my thoughts:

Traditionally, people entering the hobby had two choices: toy trains or modeling. People chose one or the other for a variety of reasons. Both had paths had certain skills and financial investment needed to pursue the hobby. (Even if you were in Lionel you needed benchwork, wiring and a minimum amount of scenery.) Those who chose the model railroad route had many additional skills they needed to master to make a decent layout. The payoff was increased realism, more prototypical operations and the right to call one's self a model railroader. Even if all we have is a small shelf layout we take a certain amount of pride, especially if we have some scratch built structures or detailed and weathered our rolling stock ourselves.

I think some of the resentment is the perception that people can buy their way into a better layout (and the fraternity) without mastering the skills. Why take the time to study the prototype and detail a caboose when for thirty dollars Atlas will do this for you?

My feeling is that everyone is better at some of the skills than others. Those who are buying highly detailed, ready to roll equipment may be very talented in the area of layout design. Also, some people, as they age, can no longer do the detailing they used to especially if they have Parkinsons or some other condition.

Most who start off with EZ Track eventually bite the bullet and learn how to lay flex track. It is the only way to a decent layout.

[DrummingTrainfan]

Being in the new generation I can't say who's more competent. I will say that the lack of kits does disturb me...but not for the reasons stated. I hate the new RTR trend becuase the cost of stuff then doubles. At my LHS he has bunches of old athearn and MDC kits that are about 8-10 bucks a piece...I then look at the RTR stuff (some of which is just the kits that have been built) that are 15-30 bucks a piece. Which do you think I'm gonna buy? Which is starting to go out of production? my dad says this and I agree..."It's no wonder the hobby is dieing...how can a kid affort to spend $20 on one car?" The same applies to locomotives. I can get a powered Athearn AC4400 BB for about $40-50...the same Athearn RTR or P2K will cost me at least $80-100.

[2c]

[TrainFreak409]

Well, I use the RTR stuff and EZ track for now because my "layout" is on the floor. But once I start building my layout, I want to stray away from them over time to hone my skills. And then comes scratchbuilding...which I have high hope of doing one day.

Oh wow, this thread IS old. This was posted a little while after I joined.

[Anonymous]

Antonio,

What's the story resurrecting these topics from a year ago? Kind of annoying to have to scroll though all the old deadwood to find something new.

I notice some of the other "insiders" doing this as well. Is this suposed to be funny? I think it would be more interesting to start a new topic so we didn't have to wade through all the old stuff ... but maybe I'm just too unhip to understand why this is cool.

Jon

[AntonioFP45]

Times have changed and we are operating with a different, faster paced mindset today.

While scratchbuilding is not as widespread as it once was, the art has not dissappeared. Many modelers on this forum still show off photos of models that they've kitbashed or improved.

The technology today that makes DCC and sound possible is incredible. I find it intimidating and yet, for kids like my teenage nephew, it's a breeze.

Today's generation is "competent" and capable of leading modelrailroading forward. Perhaps in different areas or disciplines of this hobby but yes......very much so!

Big 10-4 on that!

[on30francisco]

I believe the current generation of modelers is as competent or maybe more competent than us oldtimers. There is room in this hobby for both RTR and kitbuilders. The hobbiests of today have more choices and can opt to persue those aspects of the hobby that gives them the most enjoyment such as scratchbuilding, kitbuilding, operation, layout design etc. I buy some items RTR because assembling a kit for those items - especially ones with zillions of parts and a lot of tedious assemblies (eg. truck frames) - is not my idea of fun. I get much more enjoyment out of scratchbuilding than assembling a craft train kit. There is a much bigger selection of scratchbuilding supplies available today than there was in the past. It is true that many LHSs don't stock a lot of scratchbuilding supplies or certain items, but there's always the internet and the arts and craft stores where you can find a tremendous selection compared to most LHSs - and at much more reasonable prices.

[Anonymous]

FRED,

You did get an answer to your FT shell, http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6416.
You did get a lot of very good advice on your how to weather wood question. You just didn't seem happy with their help.

If you got better info to your questions at your LHS then why don't you share the info and post it back to your original posts and help us?

Do you want to be one of the "know-it-alls", keeping the info to yourself, and won't share, just criticise?

BTW, how do you weather basswood to look like old sun bleached never been painted oak?

[Anonymous]

The question is rather snobish and arrogant don't you think? I'm rather offended by it. It implies you think they are not or you wouldn't of posted it. Maybe if the current self proclaimed masters would share their knowledge rather than being condesending us younger people would be better in the skills? It's like a couple months ago I got an old unpainted tarnished brass FT shell. I posted on this forum how to prep and paint it. I to date have recieved zero, I repeat, zero, 000, replies. I posted how to weather wood to get a warm gray tone and got no good usable replies. I got use this or that but none gave the results I asked about. I found the answers to both my questions at a LHS. So why don't you know-it-alls share instead of criticising? Help us instaed of acting superior? FRED

[sparkingbolt]

I met a guy i a LHS who built his first ever attempt model railroad, scenery and all. He did it for something to do while out of work on an injury. He invited me over to see it. Now you could see his apparent lack of knowledge (or care) in general regarding real railroads on this layout, such as he was running modern cars with steam loco's. I didn't critique, that's not why he invited me there.

But at the same time, for a first layout, I was very impressed. the scenery was great, with lots of forest and rock moldings, the roads appeared to be plaster or something that he applied by hand, not some pre-fab street stuff. The overall effect was quite nice, all this by someone who never made any such attempt before. I gave plenty of sincere credit or praise. I even picked up a few ideas. I was modeling in the late '70, and in the '80s

So the point being, don't under estimate the potential and current skill of the new set.
Dan