Simon,
Most model railroaders are lemmings and follow the masses. A lot of what is on this board is an example. People asking questions about how did everyone else do something or how should they do something. There was a thread once about are there any new innovative ideas. It kinda died out quickly. I'm reminded of what the great Dan Gurney said when he decided to develop her own chassis and a Toyota IndyCar engine. He said that 'If I run the same engine and chassis as everyone else then I should expect the same results and I simply run with the pack.' By doing something different he hoped to separate himself from the pack.
Regarding DCC, Years ago before going DCC I meet and talked to a number of people who cited 3 primary reasons why they picked the system they did - 1) It was what my LHS sold; 2) It was what everyone else I knew was using; 3) I got a really good price on it. Very few said checked out all the ones available, compared the advantages and disadvantages of them, listed my needs and then made my decision.
I've tended to do things differently and try different things to see if they work. Some do, some don't. I may not have invented them, but I've been willing to experiment with something, take the risk of trying a new idea see if the results are good or is there something that can be changed to improve on the original idea. To many people simply follow what's been done for years by everyone else. But this is best left for a different thread.
Just trying to provide a balance for all those post that say 'Digitrax is the best thing ever!' Yet my experience has been different (which we have gone into in the past) and usually those people have never laid hands on another system.
I will disagre with your opinion that Digitrax remains an innovator in the field. IMO, in the last couple of years they have sat on their laurels and been past by others in the field. The haven't introduced a new system in years, the Super Empire Builder is antiquated as admitted by D fans, the UT4 was not an innovation, but in response to customers asking for a better basic throttle than the UT1 or UT2 - something that could do 4 digit addressing, the DT400 was done to provide something with a better display akin to a ProCab, again in response to customer demands because of the poor display on a DT100. They did come out with a signal system, yet I've not heard from anyone who has actually installed it. They did come out with sound decoders, but is that really innovative? The changes in DCC technology have passed them by or they haven't implemented them. I have not doubt that they will continue to be around, but I think they've lost the innovative edge they may have had 5-7 years ago.
jwils -
All three subjects have been covered ad nauseum to date, but there is more to come I am sure.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
simon -
It's darn near impossible not to notice. Every time I see a thread that alludes to any of those three topics, I know that some free entertainment is on the way. I subscribe to the view that it is your railroad and if it works for you then great. For example a 4 X 8 operated by a Bachmann EZ Command with feeders located every 60" is fine if the modeller is having fun, which, unless I am mistaken, is what this is all about.
As for Digitrax, I have a Zephyr. I did my homework, asked questions of the local dealer, scoured the web, and settled on the Zephyr because, for me, it was priced right, had enough oomph for the maximum number and kind of locomotives that I will run, is expandable and upgradeable, and as you note, Digitrax will be around for a while. I refuse to be defensive since it works just fine for me.
bearman wrote: I've come to the conclusion that there are three questions which are almost guaranteed to create controversy in these fora:1. Which DCC system is best;2. Optimum feeder wire spacing for DCC wiring;3. The joys of a 4 X 8 model railroad.
I've come to the conclusion that there are three questions which are almost guaranteed to create controversy in these fora:
1. Which DCC system is best;
2. Optimum feeder wire spacing for DCC wiring;
3. The joys of a 4 X 8 model railroad.
Oh, you mean you have noticed that folks get defensive when JK goes on his weekly tirade against Digitrax. I have decided not to bother to respond any more. My personal experience is so far removed from his and I am not interested in getting into a mud slinging match. IMO there are some very good systems on the market; Digitrax, NCE included. I don't subscribe to the theory that model railroaders are lemmings and just follow the masses. A company does no achieve the market share that Digitrax has by producing rubbish. Digitrax has, and will continue to be one of the real innovators in this field.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
This might be good to enter as a new thread and all three subjects have been covered in previous individual theads. But you're right, they have created much controversy.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
I disagree that manuals are poorly written.
When combined with PDF Files from the manufactor along with other Participants in the Hobby providing thier own take in various forms such as books, websites, forum postings, diagrams and how to's Anyone can master DCC.
Take the Kato Unitrack. Plug them directly into a DS-64, plug the DS64 into the wall power strip and hook the loconet cable to it and presto! Instant response to the thrown and closed commands. Addressing them for more than 4 switches, route selection or nesting can wait for another day when Im up for the study.
DCC takes two wires to the track. You can run two or more engines seperately or together.
That is the foundation of DCC, everything else such as the hardware, information etc is all up to the user. KISS... Keep it simple stupid.
Robert,
Well, know you now why I'm not a fan of Digitrax as a system for a DCC newbie. It can be too complex, even a Zephyr, if the person is unfamiliar with DCC in general. Add in the reputation for poorly written manuals and it simply compounds the problems.
If I recall correctly, to set a command station up as a booster you have to physically wire a jumper in place to do so. Your explanation of powering up components in a proper order is what was discovered to be the cause of the problem. As I recall the Zephyr that was being used to power a yard and control its turnout decoders was not set to be a booster. With NCE the command station and booster are all in the same case. There is a short cable that connects the two. If you add a booster, you simply connect the boosters together. There is no need to change jumpers or switches.
I've never heard of NCE users having problems with inrush current of sound locos causing shutdown issues. The test Tony's conducted cited 11 locos in the power district and NCE still had no problem with resetting.
In the case of the re-acquiring it could well have been the case that it took longer than 200 seconds (3 min 20sec) to clear the short. This was during a large train show and if someone was talking to a visitor and not watching their train they may not have realized they cause the short. It still caused the plugging in to re-acquire the loco and start up again. Since they were all pretty much Digitrax newbies I'd bet they weren't aware of the ability to change the drop-out time.
The other thing that I usually run across with people is that the big D supporters have never layed their hands on a NCE system and tried it out. They end of with D becuase they either 1) got a 'good' deal on it; 2) it was what everyone else was using or 3) it was what my LHS sold and I thought they'd be able to help with any problems. Someone earlier mention the PC vs Mac debate. I think that also applies to D vs. NCE, with NCE being the Mac. People who have used it find it easier to use with a better user interface, but people go with D because its what everyone else has.
I debated this same question last year when I decided to upgrade my then 4x8 layout to DCC. I ended up going with the PE because I wanted the walk around throttle. I've had great luck with my system so far, even on my new layout which is 12x16. I don't run many locos at once and none of mine have sound so the 1.6amp output is adequate. You can always expand this by adding a booster at a later point and the PE is upgradable by purchasing the PA, PA2 and even the new wireless throttles MRC has available. I think the only reason why I somtimes wish I went for Digitrax is that most of my club members' home layouts use Digitrax and it would be nice to have my own throttle to bring in case the owner has a shortage.
Modeling the fictional B&M Dowe, NH branch in the early 50's.
Paul3 wrote: jktrains,As for a poster's trends over a period of time on this forum, I have noticed that you have a distinct dislike of Digitrax and their products. Care to say why?Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
jktrains,As for a poster's trends over a period of time on this forum, I have noticed that you have a distinct dislike of Digitrax and their products. Care to say why?
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Sure, I was part of a modular group in the area that went with a Digitrax system. There were 4 or 5 members who had their own D systems - Super Chiefs, a Zephyr, radio, the whole package. Everytime we set-up the layout there were problems getting the DCC system to operate correctly. At one set-up it took almost 6 hours (until 6pm) before the system was up and running. None of the so called experts could figure out what the problems were and what the solutions were. None of them even bothered to take out the manual to figure things out. There were problems getting command stations to respond as a booster; getting the loconet working correctly; clearing shorts and others. On a weekend set-up, when you waste 6 hours due to that crap you get to thinking that there are better ways. The manual wasn't much help either.
At another set-up we experienced system re-start problems after shorts when someone ran a turnout or derailed. The problem - too many sound equipped engines in a power district. When the system wouldn't reset because of this then you need to remove locos until the reset occurred and then put them back on. This is a documented issue with D systems (see the discussion and test results on Tony's website).
At another set-up we still had problems with command station/booster communication issues. The solution had to do with the order in which things were turned on. If I recall correctly, apparently if you turn on a booster first it wants to act like a command station. You turn on the command station after that and the network becomes confused. We experienced locos all of a sudden running at full speed with no explanation. Again, none of the 'experts' knew what the problem was at first.
I ran with another group that experienced the same problem with too many sound locos. If it took too long to clear the short and reset the system then people had to plug in and re-acquire their locos.
Add to this many hours of operating with the need to continually plug in to acquire a loco or to consist (as it was explained to me) and you soon realize the short comings of a simplex system. No one could distinctly explain how to consist two locos without stopping and going 'no, no wait a minute.'
We had members who said that the problems with the loconet were because people were using Tony's UTPs and not OFFICIAL Digitrax UTP5s. The people were using PS-Rev and not OFFICIAL Digitrax reversers. They were telling people that the only thing that you could use with Digitrax would be Digitrax components, that the problems we were experiencing were because of third party manufacturers.
I first used the D system on a friend's home layout. He gave me a throttle to use. Before I knew it some how I had entered program mode instead of selecting the loco. Why, because the display gives you cryptic displays that unless you've thoroughly read the manual you have no idea what it means.
These are some of my personal experiences. Was I with individuals who were not well versed in using D system? Possibly? They represented themselves as knowledgeable about it though. I do know that my 4-H kids ran with a members PHP radio system last week at the county fair we experienced none of these problems, especially with acquiring locos and entering other system areas besides running a train.
If you'd experienced the difficulties using D systems that I have, with people who said they knew how to use it, you'd have a bit of a sour taste about it too.
mpcaboose, I whole-heart agree with the sentiment that no one wants the Super Empire Builder.
If Digitrax has any brains, they will dump the SEB and find a way to assemble a nice mid range set. If they cannot keep a good spread on costs, they need to just junk the SEB entirely and just offer two options.. the Zephyr and the Chief.
You cannot read back CV's on the SEB and vice versa on MRC Decoder equiptted engines. Being able to read CV's or learn what that "Whatsit" is doing inside your engine's computer is very valuable.
At the end of the day, when it is time to run trains you will be wanting one control system that YOU are happy with and understand at a decent price. I just know that the SEB aint it. However, the SEB is useful as a second booster/throttle situation as an add-on.
Alex:
I would think that the Zephyr would be your best option, if you can run your layout from a fixed postion. The PE will give you some movement with its corded throttle so that may be a consideration but the 2.5 amp Zephyr gives you more power and great upgrade options. If you can afford an additional throttle then the Zephyr choice is a no brainer in my opinion.
Whatever you do, keep in mind a couple of features that you're very likely going to want some day, no matter what your interests are now, so make sure that your upgrade path can lead to these options. These are 1. Computer interface. 2. Wireless throttle. Art Hill is correct. A wireless throttle is a great toy!
I'm proud of you Alex for keeping your priorities straight. I notice in your personal profile that you list trains ahead of girls (LOL)!
Paul Cutler and mpcaboose:
Just a point of clarification, and I know that you are aware of this. Lenz doesn't need a radio throttle with their compatibility with CVP wireless. You can get a good 5 amp Lenz/CVP wireless system for around $590, a little higher than others but in the ballpark. And it's duplex. And their low cost cordless phone wireless option has been a real blessing for those who can't afford radio wireless. However, I must say that a 2.5 amp Zephyr, plus a DT400 radio throttle is a terrific, lower cost radio option that would serve many for a long, long time.
OK, I guess this really is getting off track.
Bottom line, if I were looking to start up again, I could be happy with either a Zephyr (as long as I added a walk around throttle) or a Prodigy Express. But I'd take a LONG look at the NCE Powercab as well.
Safety Valve, certainly no offense intended, but I'll stick with my feeling that the Digitrax line could use some new blood. Does anyone even buy an Empire Builder anymore? I'd look to replace that with a new line that can match up better with the new MRC offerings, at their price point.
Bearman, absolutely you can get a Zephyr for $160. But you still don't have a walk around throttle. To match an NCE or MRC throttle, you'll need to spring for a DT400 that gets your price up to the $300 neighborhood.
Paul, don't even get me started on Lenz. I loved their throttles when they first came out, but now they look like 1960's transistor radios.Always did love their operating system though ... to me they always seemed to be the Mac to the old clunky PC. And their blind reliance on a wireless phone as a throttle remains one of the most perplexing decisions in all of DCC.
To me, the choice of a DCC system is mostly a matter of personal needs and preferences. I don't belong to a club, so I don't have to worry about being compelled to match someone else's choice. I don't use a PC, and don't look to in the near future. I use those parameters along with a desire to have a display, preferably one that I can see and easily understand, to govern my choices.
No one else has mentioned it, so I will. You can run your DC locomotives on Digitrax. Now it is practically limited to one (they would all run together if you put more than one on). But you can run them along with your DCC locos and they will have a seperate throttle control. This is useful to me as I have some locomotives I can't convert to DCC.
The Digitrax wireless throttle gets criticised for being "simplex" (one way communication), although I don't really know what disadvantage this is. I used to think it meant you had to go and plug back in every time you shorted out (like on a switch) but then someone told me that wasn't the case. Can someone clear this up?
I use the inexpensive Bachmann with my N scale setup and so far all I am missing is a wireless throttle. I hope to update someday soon.
mpcaboose -
The Zephyr can be had for 160$, which is what I paid for mine.
Hello Paul,
You bring up something interesting towards the end of your statement above.
I like the powerpack style throttle lever that the Digitrax Zephyr offers as it vaguely makes me feel more like a locomotive engineer.
I am very impressed with the NCE controller, as I've used one at the Suncoast MRR Club. The digital display is excellent, as are the function keys. It's very user friendly, but I have to admit that the "scrolling wheel" has always been a bit of a turn-off for me......of course I did get used to it.
For a home layout, I would still prefer a DCC controller with a lever on it, hands down. Perhaps there are other modelers that feel as I do.
I hope that in the "next generation" of DCC throttles that will hit the market within the next two years, that at least one model will offer a lever type of controller.
Just my thoughts
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
jktrains,Well, that's your opinion. I guess if you think I'm "a little sensitive" because I try to debate topics that interest me on an internet discussion board, I guess that must also apply to everyone here...including you.As for a poster's trends over a period of time on this forum, I have noticed that you have a distinct dislike of Digitrax and their products. Care to say why?
And yes, you did attempt to put words in my mouth. I wrote, "Sorry, but I'd rather use a system that works with all decoders (even the dumb decoders) and that doesn't require me to remember what locos were pointing in what direction."
To which, you replied, "Apparently your preference is to have the command station do all the work and use dumb decoders." While I do prefer a system where the command station does all the work with consisting, it looks like to me that you also stated that I preferred "dumb" decoders when I wrote no such thing. I do prefer to use a system that can operate dumb decoders so I never have to worry about if they are dumb or not, but I do not prefer to use dumb decoders. Sorry. In fact, I don't even think I own any "dumb" decoders...
mpcaboose,I dunno what you mean by Digitrax having an "aging" product line. I mean, what does that make Lenz? Bernard Lenz invented DCC in the 1980's and they are still using the throttles from over 10-15 years ago (LH100) and they still don't have a non-phone radio throttle. NCE hasn't come out with a new throttle in years, either (not counting the ProCab starter set, the last was the "knob" Cab04, IIRC, or was it the Cab05?).
Quite frankly, the "Empire Builder" is overdue for replacement, but the Chief and the Zephyr are good systems for what they do. The biggest strikes against the Z is the price and the console-type throttle that it comes with. Digitrax was banking on the fact that most beginners are used to a "powerpack"-type control, so stuck with it for the Z's design.
We seem to be drifting from the original question. :)
Go wireless. Try both handhelds and see which one you like. Check out the Digitrax UT4R wireless throttle.
Ralph
Amargosa Railroad
mpcaboose, I take offense at your idea that Digitrax is aging.
What does that leave the 12 volt DC non DCC users?
To me Digitrax is "Proven" and when it is time to run trains troubleshooting (If any) is not a mystery. It is the same reason Im not upgrading to VISTA and sticking with my 5 year old XP Pro.
mpcaboose,Where can you pick up a PA for the cost of a Z ($160)? As for comparing the PA to the Z, since the PA retails for around $350 (IIRC) and the Z for $200, the PA better be the superior system.
Paul,
The gap is less than you think. Trainworld currently has the Prodigy Advance for $194.99. Or for an extra $15, you can go to Wholesale Trains and pick up an Advance Squared for $209.99. That's pretty good bang for the buck.
IMO, Digitrax has done the other manufacturers a favor by sticking with an aging product line. MRC and NCE are now offering more complete systems at the low end of the Digitrax line. That's where most of the newbies live.
Paul3 wrote: Sorry, but I'd rather use a system that works with all decoders (even the dumb decoders) and that doesn't require me to remember what locos were pointing in what direction.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Sorry, but I'd rather use a system that works with all decoders (even the dumb decoders) and that doesn't require me to remember what locos were pointing in what direction.
Comments about being senstive comes from reading many of your replies over time. As far as dumb decoders, see the above. I don't think that's putting words in your mouth!
jktrains
mpcaboose wrote:As far as the Express vs. the Zephyr, I agree that either would be a good choice as a starter system. Be aware with the release of the MRC Advance Squared and the new Wireless, It's now becoming possible to pick up a Prodigy Advance for about the same price as a Zephyr. There IS no contest there, the Advance is the clear winner....