It is my understanding that there is 50+ years worth of money accumulated underneath DOT's carpeting.
OR did they spend it all quietly?
wjstix wrote: The writer's point was that if the government hadn't barged in and wrestled control of US passenger train service from the poor private railroads, the government would have had more money to spend on maintaining road bridges.
Well, gee, if the government didn't spend so much money on cancer research, they'd have more to spend on road and bridge maintenance, too. They could also close down half of the fire departments, and forget about educating kids past the eighth grade. Sure, there are plenty of ways to find more money for bridge maintenance.
is the correct catagorization for that letter writer.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
An interesting railroad tie in, an Op/Ed piece in the St.Paul Pioneer Press Sunday laid part of the blame on the bridge collapse on AMTRAK!!
The writer's point was that if the government hadn't barged in and wrestled control of US passenger train service from the poor private railroads, the government would have had more money to spend on maintaining road bridges.
When you live so close to a tradegy like this, and have traveled the bridge hundreds of times, most recently the night before, it really does hit home. The media pictures and videos don't do justice to the massive mess on our hands. Seeing this in person was gut wrenching.
I'm thankful I have Model Railroading as a diversion when life challenges us.
Thank You arthill for starting this discussion.
MAbruce wrote: riogrande5761 wrote: coborn35 wrote: riogrande5761 wrote:and this relates to model trains how?Are you serious dude?Get a heart, I think they are on sale.Easy now. You totally misunderstand me. I have a heart. I'll have to check the rules here but at Atlas, they have a rule that if you post there, it has to be related to trains. The reason is there are many general forums available for talking about your dog that died or the bridge that collapsed or the terrible Tsunami etc. The reason for those rules isn't to be hard hearted, but to keep forums with specific topics from becoming flooded with all manner of discussion. I hope this clarifies that I do have a heart, and I care about those who were hurt in the disaster. I also prefer to talk about those things on forums which are for that purpose. The reason I come here is to destress. Model Railroading is a hobby where I can forget world disasters, that divorce that I am going through, stress of work, etc etc. Then to be confronted with non-model train world disasters kind of defeats that for me and probably many others. Anyway, I will check the rules just to make sure I am not out of line in suggesting we keep things model train related here. After all, that is what the title is to this section.I misunderstood you too. In the future, perhaps instead of making one line comments that can be misconstrued, click on the ‘Report Abuse' button and send a message to the moderators. Let them make the call without having to make it a public issue (which tends to get people riled up). Also, if you don't want to read through topics like this, then perhaps you ought to simply pass them over. No one is forcing you to read through every topic on this forum.
riogrande5761 wrote: coborn35 wrote: riogrande5761 wrote:and this relates to model trains how?Are you serious dude?Get a heart, I think they are on sale.Easy now. You totally misunderstand me. I have a heart. I'll have to check the rules here but at Atlas, they have a rule that if you post there, it has to be related to trains. The reason is there are many general forums available for talking about your dog that died or the bridge that collapsed or the terrible Tsunami etc. The reason for those rules isn't to be hard hearted, but to keep forums with specific topics from becoming flooded with all manner of discussion. I hope this clarifies that I do have a heart, and I care about those who were hurt in the disaster. I also prefer to talk about those things on forums which are for that purpose. The reason I come here is to destress. Model Railroading is a hobby where I can forget world disasters, that divorce that I am going through, stress of work, etc etc. Then to be confronted with non-model train world disasters kind of defeats that for me and probably many others. Anyway, I will check the rules just to make sure I am not out of line in suggesting we keep things model train related here. After all, that is what the title is to this section.
coborn35 wrote: riogrande5761 wrote:and this relates to model trains how?Are you serious dude?Get a heart, I think they are on sale.
riogrande5761 wrote:and this relates to model trains how?
Are you serious dude?
Get a heart, I think they are on sale.
Easy now. You totally misunderstand me. I have a heart. I'll have to check the rules here but at Atlas, they have a rule that if you post there, it has to be related to trains. The reason is there are many general forums available for talking about your dog that died or the bridge that collapsed or the terrible Tsunami etc. The reason for those rules isn't to be hard hearted, but to keep forums with specific topics from becoming flooded with all manner of discussion. I hope this clarifies that I do have a heart, and I care about those who were hurt in the disaster. I also prefer to talk about those things on forums which are for that purpose.
The reason I come here is to destress. Model Railroading is a hobby where I can forget world disasters, that divorce that I am going through, stress of work, etc etc. Then to be confronted with non-model train world disasters kind of defeats that for me and probably many others. Anyway, I will check the rules just to make sure I am not out of line in suggesting we keep things model train related here. After all, that is what the title is to this section.
I misunderstood you too.
In the future, perhaps instead of making one line comments that can be misconstrued, click on the ‘Report Abuse' button and send a message to the moderators. Let them make the call without having to make it a public issue (which tends to get people riled up).
Also, if you don't want to read through topics like this, then perhaps you ought to simply pass them over. No one is forcing you to read through every topic on this forum.
Me too.
Shake?
Here's a pic that helps get some perspective on the layout of the area:
http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/us/080107minnbridge&curPhoto=120
The view is looking generally west. The arch in the foreground is the Cedar Ave. bridge. Just beyond that is the wreckage of the 35W bridge. After that is a lock and dam. Farther in the distance you can see the arches of the old Great Northern stone arch bridge, the other side of that is St.Anthony Falls.
Yes, a major disaster!
This is / was a VERY busy artery in the system and I pray the numbers (not taking into account the autos and trucks in the river, yet to be searched) are correct.
My father went over that bridge early that morning and a life long friend crossed it five times during his work shift. Thank God all of my friends and family are fine...
On the other hand, a co-worker's aunt is hospitalized in critical condition with at least a shattered knee and hip, after being caught on the bridge during it's collapse.
I pray for all the injured, still missing, and the rescue maintenance and recovery workers.
There was a program on the History Channel last night about bridge collapses. They basically did individual stories about bridge failures in Oakland, CA (earthquake,) Connecticut (weather and stress deterioration,) upstate New York (underwater pier failure from rushing water,) Tampa, FL (tanker collision) and a couple more after I had to go to sleep.
There were really only two causes, though. Either the bridge was under-designed and didn't account for the range of calamities that could befall it, or it wasn't properly inspected and maintained. The good news is that bridges being built now are much more able to withstand all the stresses frome both normal and unusual events, and known weak points (like the hanger straps in Connecticut) have been recognized and retrofitted with better solutions.
There is a low level dam upstream of the bridge site. This is a strange failure to me, especially after looking at the video. Reminds me of the Silver Bridge that collapsed in Point Pleasant, but this was a totally different design, and briges like this one are not supposed to "all fall down" just because one span fails. They are not supposed to be interdependent. But, on the video the main span drops and then seconds later, the next span goes down. Not good. And, it is my understanding that the main span was not even the first one to fail.
Something was wrong, that's for sure. Now it's time for "the blame game", and the sure fire governmental solution to everything - throw money at it. Unfortunately, it will be our money.
Yes, the word dam is used, but I don't believe in the traditional sense - only in association with the lock system. Rather then blocking river flow, the "dams" create controlled/stepped elevation changes in lieu of the natural waterfalls and block any watercraft from not using the lock system. But I am CFO, not an engineer!
Wayzata Modeler wrote: - there is no "dam" upstream but rather St. Anthony Falls which over the years has been transformed to a concrete spillway. Locks handle barge traffic around the concrete spillway. The main river channel is blocked from any boat traffic. It may be rail traffic may be called into service to deliver goods north of the site.<>
- there is no "dam" upstream but rather St. Anthony Falls which over the years has been transformed to a concrete spillway. Locks handle barge traffic around the concrete spillway. The main river channel is blocked from any boat traffic. It may be rail traffic may be called into service to deliver goods north of the site.
Between the bridge and St.Anthony Falls is a lock and dam, I thought I heard one news report call it "Lock and Dam no. 3" but I could be mistaken. Anyway, if you go to Google Maps and use the satellite or hybrid image it's very easy to see, it's maybe 100 yards upstream from the bridge; the falls are maybe 500 yards farther west.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Wayzata Modeler wrote: My office is in downtown highrise in Minneapolis and my office windows overlook the Stone Arch bridge (famous railway bridge built in 1883) as well as the 35W bridge site. Luckly, I travel west from Mpls to get home and do not cross the bridge for my commute. River barge traffic will be affected - there is no "dam" upstream but rather St. Anthony Falls which over the years has been transformed to a concrete spillway. Locks handle barge traffic around the concrete spillway. The main river channel is blocked from any boat traffic. It may be rail traffic may be called into service to deliver goods north of the site.
My office is in downtown highrise in Minneapolis and my office windows overlook the Stone Arch bridge (famous railway bridge built in 1883) as well as the 35W bridge site. Luckly, I travel west from Mpls to get home and do not cross the bridge for my commute.
River barge traffic will be affected - there is no "dam" upstream but rather St. Anthony Falls which over the years has been transformed to a concrete spillway. Locks handle barge traffic around the concrete spillway. The main river channel is blocked from any boat traffic. It may be rail traffic may be called into service to deliver goods north of the site.
You are correct, I didn't see the lock until after my earlier post, and I'm sorry for any confusion.
The collapse won't "affect" river traffic as much as halt it completely past that point. It's going to take a while to clean that up, and some of the worst debris is directly downstream from the entrance to the lock, probably blocking the main channel. Fortunately, it's close to the shore, so they can get some heavy lift capability in close without having to boom out or use barges.
Thanks arthill for your thoughts. It times and events like these that help us all realize we are one big family. Let us hope we never get callous to any tradegy, big or small. Model railroading is the bond that brings us together on this forum, but it the fact that we are human beings who care deeply about life, and the lives of others, that makes us want to reach out to people, whom we just barely know, or don't know at all, to express our deepest felt sense of sorrow for what is and has directly impacted their lives.
As others have said, this could just as well have happened to any of us and any place around the world. We know longer can afford to look at life as if we are isolated from the the world. The whole world has come to our doorsteps and it will not go away. We are one, united no matter where we live in the world, and we all share the grief and sorrow that is now happening in and around Minneapolis.
Another side of this matter, is the fact that when ever we are impacted by a tradegy like this we have to deal with the emotions that will surface. If we don't we will suffer for years needlessly. Yes, emotions can run deep and strong. Every time I hear of a tradegy like this, I can't help but relive the tradegies that have directly impacted my life.
I lived in Kansas City, when the skywalk at the Hyatt collapsed, and many people lost their lives. I was working that night in downtown Kansas City, and it took weeks to get those images out of my mind.
I was also working at the "IRS" in Kansas City, when cops pulled up outside our building in mass, with me wondering what was happening. We quickly learned about the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma. Many of my coworkers had immediate family and close friends working at the federal building in Oklahoma. The emotions, for me that day, were so strong I could not continue working. I had to go home sick. Later we were in Oklahoma City and saw first hand the damage. I still remember the surronding office buildings that looked like they had been in a war zone.
Again, a few years ago I had the opportunity to visit ground zero in New York City when it was just a big hole.
And to bring me back to the subject at hand, the collapse of a bridge. Are we really isolated from this kind of event. Can it happen where I live. I wish none of these events had happened, but they did, and as hard is it to say, they will continue to happen. That is just the nature of life.
Because of the bridge collapse, Most all bridges throughout our nation have been ordered to be inspected. Currently I live near St. Louis, and work in St. Louis. Late this afternoon, they closed one bridge (of a similar design to the one in Minneapolis) permanetly because of the inspection revealed it just wasn't safe. They were going to close it within a few months for that reason, but under the circumstances, they move the time table up because they didn't want to take the chance.
We too have very limited access over the Mississippi River as well as the Missouri river. A couple of years ago they close one bridge over the Mississippi because it was unsafe. I commuted across that bridge, and when it was still open, you could see the river through the concrete deck because it was so bad. Another of our bridges has had to have access lanes repeatedately closed due to structural problems that needed immediate repairs.
When something happens like did in Minneapolis, I relive all of these scenarios. I get emotional. I grief them all again. And I want to talk it out, get it out of my system. Thanks Arthill and all of the rest of you who have responded to this forum, for listening and letting me work it out.
My hopes, prayers, and support go out to all of those people in Minneapolis in this time of tragedy.
Woodlandtoots
Thoughts and prayers go out to all who are affected by this tragedy.
Here is a link to a gallery that contains some images of the railroad affected by the collapse:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/galleries/bridge_collapse/bridge_collapse.html?c=2
Ryan BoudreauxThe Piedmont Division Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger eraCajun Chef Ryan
Jerry SP FOREVER http://photobucket.com/albums/f317/GAPPLEG/
My aunt and uncle crossed this bridge when they were on vacation recently. I'm so sorry this happened. It kind of brings back memories of the Oakland bridge collapse cuased by the earth quake back in the early 90s.
The bridge that crosses over the Brazos river near where I live had to be replaced a couple of years ago, and when I asked one of the engineers that was working on it why, he simply replied because it was about to fall in... Oh thanks a lot for telling me. I drove over that rotten thing many a dark night when the river was swollen, and even had visions of it falling in with me... As a matter of fact, when they were constructing it back in the 1950s part of it did collapse and three workmen were killed, so it had always been kind of cursed.
Tracklayer
ouengr wrote:This is a diasaster for my profession.
jeffers_mz wrote: The collapse shouldn't affect river traffic at all. There's a dam just upstream from the bridge.Looks to me like the steel above the south bank main span pier failed early on and toppled sideways. That could have been the trigger, but the main span deck dropped straight down. Given that, it makes more sense that the first pier or steelwork on the approach span next to it went first, transferring considerable load to the main span cantilever trusswork, which sheared, overstressing the north cantilever, which also sheared, dropping the main span straight down, and then relieved of its counterweight, the northern approach span buckled, rotating the cantilever around the north mainspan pier and pushing it well out of plumb. If that's the case, initiation of the collapse began very close to the train tracks. There are reports of metal fatigue in the steel, judged to be less than a risk, and vibrations from passing trains could well have been a factor in the collapse.Not implying culpability for the railroad, but there's a very good chance of a cause and effect connection between the collapse and the trains. Something initiated the progression, and the live loads, heavy and/or construction traffic, tiny in comparison to the bridge's dead load, are probably no more than contributory at worst.
The collapse shouldn't affect river traffic at all. There's a dam just upstream from the bridge.
Looks to me like the steel above the south bank main span pier failed early on and toppled sideways. That could have been the trigger, but the main span deck dropped straight down. Given that, it makes more sense that the first pier or steelwork on the approach span next to it went first, transferring considerable load to the main span cantilever trusswork, which sheared, overstressing the north cantilever, which also sheared, dropping the main span straight down, and then relieved of its counterweight, the northern approach span buckled, rotating the cantilever around the north mainspan pier and pushing it well out of plumb.
If that's the case, initiation of the collapse began very close to the train tracks. There are reports of metal fatigue in the steel, judged to be less than a risk, and vibrations from passing trains could well have been a factor in the collapse.
Not implying culpability for the railroad, but there's a very good chance of a cause and effect connection between the collapse and the trains. Something initiated the progression, and the live loads, heavy and/or construction traffic, tiny in comparison to the bridge's dead load, are probably no more than contributory at worst.
Sounds like a reasonable analysis based on what we know so far. But until the engineers are done with the analysis (which may take months) we won't know for sure.
Btw - here is a picture (from google earth) of the area in question, on the north/east side of the Mississippi.
The tracks that go under the bridge lead to the RR Stone Arch Bridge over the Mississippi.
A siding apparently goes north along the east bank of the Mississippi to the Pillsbury Mills ?
Not sure who uses these track these days, and how much traffic they see.
My deepest condolances to those who lost friends and family in this bridge collapse yesterday night. It was a shock to see such a familiar sight in ruins - I and my family normally cross over that bridge quite a few times during the month we spend visiting relatives in the Twin Cities every summer. Thank God that at least none of the kids on that school bus were killed!
Stein
Edit: Should not be much RR traffic under the bridge - it is a dead end now. The Stone Arch bridge last saw RR traffic in 1978, and the Mill has been converted to some kind of museum.
Basically what we see under the north end of the I-35W bridge over the Mississippi seems to be a the tail end of a small group of storage tracks for BNSF, which are connected to the BNSF Union Yard at Saint Anthony.
I stumbled across the report while looking for a link on Yahoo, at first I couldn't believe it, now I know its true, I am a long way from the disaster, but believe me, it affects me and I am sure my countrymen (persons).
What has it got to do with trains?
As model railroaders we share a common bond, this is just another sharing between people that care about 'everyone'.
Teditor
My thoughts and prayers are with families involved.
We heard about it first around 10am our time, it's a very sad event.
James in Oz.
James, Brisbane Australia
Modelling AT&SF in the 90s
Have fun with your trains
I have relatives living near there, my parents just went up there.
their okay.
and well if this thread doesnt have to do with model trains then let it sink slowly in the west when others are all done with it...