Not-so-good experience with Life-Like

[mondotrains]

Hi Ed,
If your engine is thumping as it runs around the layout, I'll bet you good money and give you odds that one of the gears on the wheel axles is cracked. I have over 50 Proto engines and have had to replace cracked gears on the axles on about 20 percent. If you call lifelike, they will gladly send you new axles with the gears and wheels attached. They are easy to install.

These folks at Lifelike would rather keep taking calls about the thumping and replacing the axles, gears and wheels instead of figuring out how to make a plastic gear that won't crack when the axles are pressed on. Isn't that stupid?

I've actually told the woman at Lifelike that I don't need the axles and wheels.....just that plastic gear, but she sends the whole setup. I would suggest that you ask for a whole bunch of these gears with axles and wheels like I did because you're going to need them if you continue to buy Proto engines.

Hope this helps.
Mondo

QUOTE: Originally posted by gmpullman

Petejung...
Let me know what you find in your GP-9. I have one that is doing the same thing but I haven't ripped into it yet. I thought there was a lump of gunk on the wheel tread but that's not the case.
I am waiting for a new headlight/ smokebox front for my Heritage NKP Berkshire.
Lifelike instructs you to change the bulb to a 12v but they don't tell you that it will melt the headlight molding.
Its been 2 weeks... so far no go.
I'm waiting to hear from Broadway Limited, too. They had the wrong engine number in the box for my B&LE RSD-15. Now I have 2 of same number. Broadway says that must have been a factory mistake and they are sold out. They recommended I buy a sound version and sell the other one!
Ed

[jsoderq]

OK first thing I tell everybody- DO YOUR HOMEWORK. First the locos Lifelike sell are not made by them. They do not manufacture - they buy from the orient under contract. The FA's have not been made in years. I think I bought the first ones in the late 80's so it is not surprising they dont have a chassis. You can't buy one for your 1988 Chevelle either.
When you went to the decoder, you in effect modified the engine and pretty much voided the warrantee. Others have already explained what you did wrong sending the decoders back. Also since Lifelike has little or no experience with decoders, expecting them to "test" your units is a little impractical. This is why all the decoder manufacturers have extensive web sites with literally tons of information. There are also great guys like Tony's, Litchfield and others. There are also many online discussion groups at Yahoo and other places that cover DCC from one to a million. Most locos have their little quirks when it comes to DCC and everyone needs all the information they can get. Many people bash a manufacturer unfairly for problems that can be avoided, but in almost every instance they bend over backward to back up their products. The DCC guys are even better about this than the line manufacturers so they are absolutely the best resource for finding problems before they become problems and for curing them if and when they do. So, do your homework and take it easy on the guys that make this hobby even possible.

[SpaceMouse]

jsoderq

Let me get this straight.

1) I voided a warrenty by installing a decoder in a loco advertised as DCC ready?

2) It is my fault, even though at the time I bought the engine I had been in the hobby for a whole month for not knowing that the FA MU was long out of production?

3) It was stupid of me to expect that the engines be fixed just becasuse they told me to send them in, and in fact, they told me the problem was what I told them was the problem in the first place?

4) That is was stupid of me to expect that if they had the defective engine in their hand and the parts to fix it, that they didn't just do the installation rather than send the engine back and tell me to do it?

[selector]

I'm with you, except I'm unclear on the decoder-warranty issue, Chip. At the very least, they could have sent you an e-mail asking you if you would pay them (a very few $) to right it and send it back, rather than the dumbfounding note you got from them.

It's really quite bizarre.

Reminds me of an old joke: Two soldiers are in a hot air balloon doing artillery spotting, and they enter clouds. For the longest time they are lost and become worried in the white-out conditions inside the cloud. Then, a clear patch and they spot a fellow on the ground. One yells to the fellow, "Where are we?" The guy shouts back, "Yer in a cloud."

Buddy grumbles to his partner, "He must be from headuarters staff." "Why do you say that?" the other asks.

"Well, he correctly identified the problem, was dead accurate, swift to reply, and we're no better off than we were before!"

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

...Reminds me of an old joke: Two soldiers are in a hot air balloon doing artillery spotting, and they enter clouds. For the longest time they are lost and become worried in the white-out conditions inside the cloud. Then, a clear patch and they spot a fellow on the ground. One yells to the fellow, "Where are we?" The guy shouts back, "Yer in a cloud."
Buddy grumbles to his partner, "He must be from headuarters staff." "Why do you say that?" the other asks.
"Well, he correctly identified the problem, was dead accurate, swift to reply, and we're no better off than we were before!"

That's a beautiful story selector. You're dead on!

Chip you must have had a mid-manager take your case. And he probably just didn't know how to get the job done or didn't care about customer service. Or both.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mondotrains

....figuring out how to make a plastic gear that won't crack when the axles are pressed on. Mondo

I read on the NWSL web site about using aged deriln plastic for gears, to eliminate cracking. Plastic shrinks with age. Although the machining process takes out some of the stress, the fresh plastic is stressed to the max when it's pressed on the axle. Then after some time - SNAP

[Virginian]

I suspect the liability issue in the gun world insures that only the best work on guns sent in for repair. I have had good luck with Ruger too, and the rest, but if you send them a modified gun it will come back UN-modified too.

[dano99a]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by dano99a



You should have called them and told them what it was doing they would have sent you replacement parts, the problem you describe is what I had in 3 of my GP9's and I narrowed it down to the wheel gear assembly. I called about it and they sent me 4 new pairs free of charge. I think what we are seeing here is "Don't send it back to them, repair it yourself." Thanks for the heads up!

[:)]

I did call them. They said normally they would just have sent me a new chassis, but they were out of them. They then told me to send them in for repair.

wow, sorry man, if it will help I have a bunch of old boards from my GP7's and 9's that I'm not using, dunno if they will fit but your welcome to them. Email me your address and I'll mail them to you.

Beyond that why don't we all chip in to get Space mouse at least one new decoder??

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dano99a



wow, sorry man, if it will help I have a bunch of old boards from my GP7's and 9's that I'm not using, dunno if they will fit but your welcome to them. Email me your address and I'll mail them to you.

Beyond that why don't we all chip in to get Space mouse at least one new decoder??

That's awfully nice, but I'll make due. I'll get the new collars and the decoders back--at least one of which is good and get them on DCC. Then I'll tear down the A unit and figure out the problem if it is a gear, I'll get a new one. If it is just lubrication it'll be slicker'n snot.

Then I'll figure out what to do with them. It was to be a club train fro my daughter but she gave up last night and officially quit. I won't exactly say that it is superfluous, but I can't see using it often. If I'm running freight I have the Broadway M1A and if I run Passenger I have the Broadway E7. If I'm just going to run a string of hoppers I have the Atlas Master B&P GP-38. It won't fit in in my home layout. So.....maybe I'll put it up for trade on the new trade site.

[Anonymous]

I think to a certain degree,you are a victim of your own inexperience on this one. Unfortunately, we all probably have a story or two that can be attributed to the newbie experience. Sorry that yours is what it is.
You may know this stuff by now but I'll throw it at you anyway in case there is a morsel of new info for you.
1) You dont mention what type of Digitrax decoder you put into your loco's. If they were DH163LO's, You have to make sure that the frame area of the unit where they sit does not come in contact with the underside of the board. Although the decoder has a strip of tape along it's bottom, you are always better off to put your own strip of insulating tape directly onto the frame. Piece of mind and definately no short.
2) Proto 2000 early run 4 axle units are notorious for the cracked axle problem. The tolerances that were used in the manufacture of these early units were too tight. (ie: Too big an axle going into too small a hole.) Something had to give. And it did! Too bad for Life Like that at the time they were manufacturing all these locos, they were not in Limited Run mode. They flooded the market with gp7's, gp9's, gp'30's, PA's etc. There are still lot's of these loco's available. I would guess Life Like thinks too many! They are however, very good with the replacement issue and receive kudo's for it!
3) Back to decoders: Having been digital for a few years now, I have come to believe that decoders have a mind of their own. Just because you have two of the same decoder, do not expect them to act exactly alike when put into a locomotive. I guess that is why they are programmable. One loco will run fast, one will run slow. Swap them around and the same thing happens but reversed to the new host. Again, I guess that's why they are programmable.
4) As with decoders, two locomotives from the same manufacturer,same type, same run etc., etc.,etc., will not necessarily run exactly the same. If you get two that are exactly alike, congratulations, you've hit a home run. Being that you are using DCC, speed matching is a must if you want them to run together well.
5) Lastly, learn how to take your locomotives apart for servicing. Sometimes motors aren't seated properly or the gears are so packed with grease they can hardly turn. If the loco's have been sitting on a shelf for a long period of time, lubrication can migrate to places that it is not suppose to be. These things and many more can affect how your loco will perform. The more you do it, the more adept you will become. Before long, you will know what to check if a problem arises. I have yet to send a locomotive back to a manufacturer for any problem I've encountered. Besides, there is a certain amount of satisfaction in being able to fix it yourself. Another piece of the MR hobby puzzle!
I'm not sure that I have addressed your original thread in an exact fashion but I hope I have provided some food for thought. Good Luck with it!

[rrinker]

I sure wi***hey had flooded the market with the Reading FA's - every time I see a set of those, they seller wants a fortune for them! [:(!]
I'm a paranoid person - but so far it's paid off in my favor. I check EVERY combination of connections on the 8-pin plugs with my meter before even attempting to install a decoder. Even better - I make an effort to decipher the circuit board. This is what led me to just rip the stupid thing out of a P2K SD7. And bypass the bridge rectifier in my Stewert F7, although in retrospect it would have been easier to just remove the board and hardwire the decoder. I'm at the point now where, unless it's proven, like the P2K GP7's I have, the installed board with DCC socket is a prime candidate for the junk box. For those locos that have wires long enough from the pickups and motor terminals, it's just as easier to wire in a decoder as it is to test and fix the lousy excuse for a circuit board so many units have (P2K and others).

--Randy

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rhuddlestan

I think to a certain degree,you are a victim of your own inexperience on this one. Unfortunately, we all probably have a story or two that can be attributed to the newbie experience. Sorry that yours is what it is.

You are right, but I really don't think inexperieince is as much an issue as them telling me one thing then not following through. Also the fact that they tell me what is wrong with the unit while they have it, and instead of fixing it, send it back to me to fix.

QUOTE: You may know this stuff by now but I'll throw it at you anyway in case there is a morsel of new info for you.
1) You dont mention what type of Digitrax decoder you put into your loco's. If they were DH163LO's, You have to make sure that the frame area of the unit where they sit does not come in contact with the underside of the board. Although the decoder has a strip of tape along it's bottom, you are always better off to put your own strip of insulating tape directly onto the frame. Piece of mind and definately no short.

It was a DH163LO and I did wrap it in tape. The problem was a solder bridge on the collar. I found that before I sent it back and told them about it.

QUOTE: 2) Proto 2000 early run 4 axle units are notorious for the cracked axle problem. The tolerances that were used in the manufacture of these early units were too tight. (ie: Too big an axle going into too small a hole.) Something had to give. And it did! Too bad for Life Like that at the time they were manufacturing all these locos, they were not in Limited Run mode. They flooded the market with gp7's, gp9's, gp'30's, PA's etc. There are still lot's of these loco's available. I would guess Life Like thinks too many! They are however, very good with the replacement issue and receive kudo's for it!

They determined it was a later model, and said they would have replaced the chassis if they had one. They didn't so I was told to send it in.

QUOTE: 3) Back to decoders: Having been digital for a few years now, I have come to believe that decoders have a mind of their own. Just because you have two of the same decoder, do not expect them to act exactly alike when put into a locomotive. I guess that is why they are programmable. One loco will run fast, one will run slow. Swap them around and the same thing happens but reversed to the new host. Again, I guess that's why they are programmable.

The engines ran well together at first, but the engines sat for a while while I was waiting for parts and when I fired up the FA2 unit on the track after I got the decoders back, it made an awful racket. It ran about half the speed of the FB2 unit after that.

QUOTE: 4) As with decoders, two locomotives from the same manufacturer,same type, same run etc., etc.,etc., will not necessarily run exactly the same. If you get two that are exactly alike, congratulations, you've hit a home run. Being that you are using DCC, speed matching is a must if you want them to run together well.
5) Lastly, learn how to take your locomotives apart for servicing. Sometimes motors aren't seated properly or the gears are so packed with grease they can hardly turn. If the loco's have been sitting on a shelf for a long period of time, lubrication can migrate to places that it is not suppose to be. These things and many more can affect how your loco will perform. The more you do it, the more adept you will become. Before long, you will know what to check if a problem arises. I have yet to send a locomotive back to a manufacturer for any problem I've encountered. Besides, there is a certain amount of satisfaction in being able to fix it yourself. Another piece of the MR hobby puzzle!
I'm not sure that I have addressed your original thread in an exact fashion but I hope I have provided some food for thought. Good Luck with it!

I was about a month into the hobby and a little trepidatious about tearing into a new loco still on warrantee. One of the guys on the board stated boldly that if they were his they would be running in 20 minutes and I believed him. I was having difficulty trying to figure out where I was supposed to oil and when the offer came to send them back, I accepted eagerly. They shouldn't have offered if they were going to keep it fo a month and send it back without working on it.

Since then I have taken several steamers apart and built a 4-6-0 from a kit. I have no hesitation to rip into one now that I know I have no other option. But what about the guys out there that have been in the hobby for 10 or more years that don't or won't mess with their engines. You know who I mean, right? Should they buy what they think is a premium engine, as I believed the Protos were, and have to worry whether it will work.

I own a business. I would never put up with this kind of customer service from my employees with my name on the line.

[selector]

I wish I understood half of what Randy tells us. Would it be possible to gang up on him and get him to write a comprehensive how-to for dealing with decoder installations, circuit board testing, motor-frame isolation, etc. For me, it would have to be down to this level of detail: "First, pick up the black probe in your left hand, and place it on..."

Hello? (I 'm hearing laughter.)

[philnrunt]

After all of the posts about best locos, this is absolutely the first comprehensive discussion I've seen about problems with LL products. They always seem to get good reviews from folk, but when you read that 20% of one fellows roster has had gear problems, that tends to open eyes.
Spacemouse, i wish you the best of luck, and thanks for the post to begin with. It sure got some useful info out into the hands of those that can use it.

[jfugate]

Philnrunt:

Yep, it's too bad but in my experience and also that of several other modelers I associate with, the LL P2K stuff gives us the most problems among the various loco brands.

Kinda makes you leery about purchasing any more of the LL stuff, that's for sure.

[Virginian]

All my experience with their Heritage Steam stuff has benn excellent. Except for the time we got our wires crossed and the lady I spoke with sent me a large box of parts including everything I wanted plus 5 each of a whole bunch of other stuff including 2-8-8-2 tender shells (I think it was a character test).

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Philnrunt:Yep, it's too bad but in my experience and also that of several other modelers I associate with, the LL P2K stuff gives us the most problems among the various loco brands.
Kinda makes you leery about purchasing any more of the LL stuff, that's for sure.

It makes me wonder if the marketing people at these companies are reading any of these post.

[SpaceMouse]

Ah the wonders of the Internet. One slip in the customer service and hundreds of people have heard about it.

They won't read this unless someone emails them the link. Even then it might be filtered by spam blockers because of the link. Probably they'll never know.

[Anonymous]

I have a 2-8-8-2 with a Soundtraxx decoder and when the loco gave me trouble I was told to send it back. I placed scotch taped signs all over the loco and tender telling them about the decoder. In three weeks I received the loco with a note that read "..we don't check locos with customer added items so we didn't rewire the decoder back in.."

They also replaced the bell that I'd forgotten was missing, the pilot that I'd taken off and kept so it wouldn't get busted and put on new tender trucks as I'd taken out the center axles to make them track better. (That's a long sentence.) I was so impressed with their service that I've purchased many more P2K ,locos.

Space: it sounds to me like you could stand to have a little guidence as you're having so much trouble with the hobby. You've had more trouble with Manufacturers in 3 months then I've had in two years. I also have sent back a BLI 4-8-4 and it was fixed and returned in less then 3 weeks. In your business you try to satisify all of your customers but every once in awhile it doesn't work. I sure hope that the ones that don't get the best service don't take out an ad in your local paper and lambast your poor service. I realize that the internet is for complaining about poor this and poor that and never telling about the good stuff, so keep on going. I must admit at the San Jac show (in Houston) your name was brought up and their was a good discussion about your modeling ability. It was amazing how many people "know" you.

I've been in this hobby for better then 50 years and I think the manufacturers are much more in tune with the customer then ever before.

Ya'll have a blessed day and remember SANTE FE ALL THE WAY
Bob

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TEFFY

I have a 2-8-8-2 with a Soundtraxx decoder and when the loco gave me trouble I was told to send it back. I placed scotch taped signs all over the loco and tender telling them about the decoder. In three weeks I received the loco with a note that read "..we don't check locos with customer added items so we didn't rewire the decoder back in.."

They also replaced the bell that I'd forgotten was missing, the pilot that I'd taken off and kept so it wouldn't get busted and put on new tender trucks as I'd taken out the center axles to make them track better. (That's a long sentence.) I was so impressed with their service that I've purchased many more P2K ,locos.

Space: it sounds to me like you could stand to have a little guidence as you're having so much trouble with the hobby. You've had more trouble with Manufacturers in 3 months then I've had in two years. I also have sent back a BLI 4-8-4 and it was fixed and returned in less then 3 weeks. In your business you try to satisify all of your customers but every once in awhile it doesn't work. I sure hope that the ones that don't get the best service don't take out an ad in your local paper and lambast your poor service. I realize that the internet is for complaining about poor this and poor that and never telling about the good stuff, so keep on going. I must admit at the San Jac show (in Houston) your name was brought up and their was a good discussion about your modeling ability. It was amazing how many people "know" you.

I've been in this hobby for better then 50 years and I think the manufacturers are much more in tune with the customer then ever before.

Ya'll have a blessed day and remember SANTE FE ALL THE WAY
Bob

Thanks Bob,

Although there was probably a bit of vengence at the core of my post, I think the real imetus was shock. I could not believe that a manufacturer who seems to be making a pu***owards taking a piece of the higher end market--in a closed market place--would make such a customer service gaff. I wanted to see if this was an industry-wide attitutude or one company.

I am truely hoping that is was just a brain-poofster on Chuck's part and that it is not the normal course of events. Maybe it was just one of those things where it was sitting around . It was a month they had it, he was leaving for China, he had no parts and he wanted to dispose of a problem child instead of it sitting for two months--and he had bigger problems with Chinese production issues.

Certainly the secretary/customer service lady did everything right, which leads me more to believe that this incident was just a gaff.

I don't feel like I have a lot of trouble with manufacturers, nor the hobby in general. I admit that I tend to jump in with both feet and either sink or swim, and with that comes mistakes which I am willing to make to accelrate the learning process. But other than being sent the wrong stuff from Train World, this is the only negative dealing I've had. The Digitrax people replaced the first decoder without questions, which I now understand was not their fault.

I appreciate the compliment about modeling ability, but I'm just a babe in the woods. I stand in awe at some of the layouts and models: Agro Jones's weathering, the operational sophistication and scenic detail of Joe Fugate's Siskiyou Line, Jetrock's knowledge of Cailifornia Railroad history and Randy's knowledge of DCC. I've gotten a lot of help here so I give a majority of credit to the people fo this forum for my meager successes.

[RMax1]

I have had some hit and miss experiences with LL. Their customer service sometimes leaves a lot to be desired. I have at least a dozen Proto2000/1000 locos and not a bit of problems out of them so far. Try getting parts out of them though!!! Simple parts can be a challenge. Usually not going to happen. Their tech support is clueless. My big gripe with them is their availability of some products. Ok Ok batch runs I understand but not once in a lifetime or every second leap year. Don't get me wrong I love the Proto stuff just the company if you nead anything is screwball from time to time.

RMax1

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gsetter

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Philnrunt:Yep, it's too bad but in my experience and also that of several other modelers I associate with, the LL P2K stuff gives us the most problems among the various loco brands.
Kinda makes you leery about purchasing any more of the LL stuff, that's for sure.

It makes me wonder if the marketing people at these companies are reading any of these post.

Gary:

I too, wonder.

Just to make it completely clear, the LL stuff I and my railroad buddies use is their diesels, SD9s and GP9s specifically. So for those particular models, we have had to do more maintenance work on them than any other locos in our collection. And we *run* regular op sessions so we're talking issues of aging as well as out-of-the-box performance.

Still, the LL SD9s and GP9s shells look really nice ... I'm inclined these days to get the LL shells and then buy Stewart guts from A-Line. Unfortunately, the other source of these particular loco models is Athearn -- but the hood width is a foot or so too fat, and Atlas.

The Atlas GP9s run great (same mechanism as Kato) but the running board and skirting are part of the diecast metal chassis, so lots of luck altering it if its wrong for your road. And most of the time the skirting is different, so you've got a major grinding and filing job on your hands if you need to alter the skirting.

So LL or brass is about your only choice for ready-to-run SD9s and GP9s.

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse
Let me get this straight.

1) I voided a warrenty by installing a decoder in a loco advertised as DCC ready?

Yes.

QUOTE: ]2) It is my fault, even though at the time I bought the engine I had been in the hobby for a whole month for not knowing that the FA MU was long out of production?

You're right. So who's fault is it?

QUOTE: 3) It was stupid of me to expect that the engines be fixed just because they told me to send them in, and in fact, they told me the problem was what I told them was the problem in the first place?

You told them you "had modified" the engine?

QUOTE: 4) That is was stupid of me to expect that if they had the defective engine in their hand and the parts to fix it, that they didn't just do the installation rather than send the engine back and tell me to do it?

I would prefer the word naive . They are an Importer, not a repair shop.

Stop beating youself up. You (unknowingly) voided their Warrantee and ended their responsibility to have it fixed or replaced. Presumably, you can still get parts.

B. All manufacturer's that import product's today (including Athearn) operate similarly.Your problem is one of liability. Sometime's the best 'DEALS' come with Caveat's. Unfortunately 'Sadder but wiser' Comes to mind.

[SpaceMouse]

Don,

While I suspect that you right de facto, I doubt that if I had the time energy and money to persue it, their failure to honor their warantee would not stand up in court.

If that is the level of service this community is willing to accept, that is the level of service it will receive.