Curious that a fairly wide range of British OO and German/Swiss/Austrian HO steam locomotives are available. Is the difference in cost, demand, national histories, or what? They tend to come and go according to production runs. Most these days are very good runners and are made in Asia.
Didn't Rapido make a run of 4-6-0 locomotives recently? I remember they had a hard time getting enough people to pre-order.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Graham Line Curious that a fairly wide range of British OO and German/Swiss/Austrian HO steam locomotives are available. Is the difference in cost, demand, national histories, or what? They tend to come and go according to production runs. Most these days are very good runners and are made in Asia.
To echo this, the reason why the standard for British model railroads is OO instead of HO is because they had to make models for the smaller prototypes - so a slightly larger scale (1:76 instead of HO's 1:87) was needed. This is also, in part, because most British housing was far too small for even modest O scale layouts, meaning that the move to OO happened in a less mature hobby, which was still struggling to figure out reliabel HO running. (At least that's what I've always heard)
Of course, some OO modellers are frustrated, as OO runs on the same track gauge as HO, which means that the trackage is a bit narrow for the scale (approximately 4 feet 1 1/4 inches in scale, while they use the same 4ft 8.5in as the US does in the prototype)
dehusman I model 1900-1905 so I am all small steam and yes it's a problem. But the real problem is not just the engines, its the cars too. There hasn't be a new pre-1910 wood underframe car introduced in plastic in over 50 years. The major commodity hauled pre WW1 was coal and there isn't a single accurate wood coal car in HO plastic, kit or RTR. Basically the manufacturers have abandoned the era. Even the "old timer" cars produced by Roundhouse are detailed for the WW1 to 1920's era. Most of the Roundhouse 2-8-0's and 4-4-0's are detailed as 1920's engines as are the Bachmann 4-6-0 and 4-4-0's. Other than the Roundhouse cars, which outside the details are very nice cars and do have 1900 era appropriate paint schemes, the other early cars are barely above "train set' quality of details and finish and the tooling designs are typical of the 1960's production. Smaller, older steam won't become popular until there is something for them to pull.
I model 1900-1905 so I am all small steam and yes it's a problem.
But the real problem is not just the engines, its the cars too.
There hasn't be a new pre-1910 wood underframe car introduced in plastic in over 50 years. The major commodity hauled pre WW1 was coal and there isn't a single accurate wood coal car in HO plastic, kit or RTR.
Basically the manufacturers have abandoned the era.
Even the "old timer" cars produced by Roundhouse are detailed for the WW1 to 1920's era. Most of the Roundhouse 2-8-0's and 4-4-0's are detailed as 1920's engines as are the Bachmann 4-6-0 and 4-4-0's.
Other than the Roundhouse cars, which outside the details are very nice cars and do have 1900 era appropriate paint schemes, the other early cars are barely above "train set' quality of details and finish and the tooling designs are typical of the 1960's production.
Smaller, older steam won't become popular until there is something for them to pull.
Some years ago, LifeLike came out with "War Emergency" composite hopper Cars, I managed to get four of them....
There is definitely a fair amount of small steam circulating as second hand brass, much of it made at some point between the 1950s and the 1980s. In real terms, the prices have been generally declining for several years, in part because a lot of estate sales are bringing large collections into the market. It's not hard to find a brass 4-4-0/2-6-0/2-8-0 for a price in the $4-500 range (although if you need to remote it and put in DCC, your expenditure goes up dramatically).
If you are truly looking for a turn of the century "look," be careful- brass models of turn-of-the-century prototypes were often made to resemble the engines as they looked later in their careers, when rebuilds, superheating and other mechanical modifications had changed their appearance dramatically. Comparatively few brass models were made to capture the "as built" or "as in service circa 1905" look of older engines. The Hallmark and MEW Colorado Midland engines are exceptions, as are a lot of 4-4-0s and engines that were scrapped prior to WWI. The FED Spartan Series 4-4-0 and 2-6-0s are interesting exceptions, but take a lot of work to update.
My advice: follow our man Darth Santa Fe. There are a surprising number of kits available that can be adapted. Mantua made 4-6-0, 4-8-0, 2-6-0 and 4-4-0 kits that are reasonably reliable and can be adapted, depending on how much work you are willing to do (the basic models are simple, and can support everything from extensive redetailing all the way up to a scratchbuilt superstructure). These, and the more challenging Arbour models, pop up on eBay frequently and run from $50-250, depending on condition.
From the modeler's standpoint, the turn of the century has always been a bit niche, but if you're willing to build yourself, you can fill in a lot of gaps.
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
I like a lot of the pre 1920s steam as well, and while Bachmann makes some nice 4-4-0s and 4-6-0s, those and Athearn's 2-8-0 are about the only choices for new. That's why I favor used. Mantua/Tyco made some older style steamers that can be turned into really nice models with motor and detail upgrades. They're also well suited to kitbashing as well. Of the models they made that I can think of right now, the Rogers 4-6-0, Rogers 4-8-0, the old time 2-6-0, and the 4-4-0 General all fit the bill. I put can motors in one of my 4-6-0s and my General, and they run like champs now. I made my other 4-6-0 look older still by building a custom cab for it, and I repositioned the rear driver. Rivarossi/AHM also had some nice (in my opinion) old style engines. They had the 2-4-0 J. W. Bowker, the 4-6-0 "Casey Jones", and various 4-4-0s. And, of coarse, there's always the brass option. While that can get quite expensive, it is possible to find bargains. I picked up a project Model Engineering Works Colorado Midland 0-6-0 a few months ago for around $65. (prototypes were built in 1887).
Graham LineCurious that a fairly wide range of British OO and German/Swiss/Austrian HO steam locomotives are available. Is the difference in cost, demand, national histories, or what?
Not just the physical constraints that require smaller equipment, but the life span.
The British, French, and Swiss were running mainline steam into the late 60s and early 70s. West Germany had to figure out what to do with East Germany steam locomotives and infrastructure until they were retired in 1994.
They just lasted longer over there.
The Colorado Modland models (which were made by either Hallmark or MEW) convey a genuine turn of the century look, because the CM ceased operation in 1918- so CM modelers by definition will never be modeling something more modern.
While steam locomotives could and did run for fifty years in revenue service, the ICC established a rule in 1914 requiring wrought iron boilers to be replaced, or the engine had to be scrapped. This, combined with the skyrocketing price of scrap metal after WWI broke out, meant a lot of smaller and older locomotives were scrapped.
The state of rosters in 1914 is not particularly well documented, but a lot of railroads were still running thirty plus year old 4-4-0s and 2-6-0s that looked their age. Thee years later, those engines were shells- and very few survived to be documented and made into models. But because of the comparatively narrow range of variation in driver and cylinder dimensions, there are a lot of models that can be rebuilt to match a specific prototype, if you have photos and basic dimensional information.
SeeYou190 Didn't Rapido make a run of 4-6-0 locomotives recently? I remember they had a hard time getting enough people to pre-order. -Kevin
was that in HO? Based on some of the replies it sounds like there may be a surplus of models on the secondary market depressing sales of new. Different story in N scale where we don't have much used brass and the older plastic models are not up to modern standards.
MJ4562 SeeYou190 Didn't Rapido make a run of 4-6-0 locomotives recently? I remember they had a hard time getting enough people to pre-order. -Kevin was that in HO? Based on some of the replies it sounds like there may be a surplus of models on the secondary market depressing sales of new. Different story in N scale where we don't have much used brass and the older plastic models are not up to modern standards.
I am not sure on that front - there is definitely a trickle of brass, but they go quick for high prices. I think the main thing is that there are limited production runs of roundhouse, spectrum, etc. stuff made, but it is bought up very quickly - try getting ahold of one of the modernized spectrum 4-4-0s, they go for pretty high prices at auction.
The other problem is unending preorder periods - the "current" run of Athearn/Roundhouse 2-8-0s have been on preorder for well over a year and keep getting pushed back, probably because not enough people are preordering. I am not sure how long the preorder model can last for these smaller production run models - I wouldn't be willing to put my money in for an indefinite amount of time for a locomotive unless I was independently wealthy.
MJ4562Was that in HO?
Yes, it was the CPR class D10 4-6-0.
The Rapido offering is still in pre-order phase, from what I can see on their Website. Are clients willing to pay for a D10 that is prototypical? We'll see. The Roundhouse 4-6-0 kit was pretty close to the CP in terms of dimensions. The Bachmann 4-6-0, not so much. The Bachmann is a very smooth runner, but the later models have more molded on details than previous spectrum models. Is it that much more expensive to make these with the separate piping detail?
Simon
The Rapido D10 4-6-0 will be arriving next month (November 2023) as currently mentioned on the Rapido website. It's still technically in the "pre-order" phase because it hasn't arrived just yet and a certain percentage of models are made over pre-orders at the order deadline and so are still available for ordering.
Once the D10s hit the warehouse and the pre-ordered models are shipped out, expect the "Pre-Order" buttons to be replaced by "Add to Cart" buttons. Eventually, they will be replaced by "Out of Stock" notices.
It has been one year and one day since I ordered a 2-truck Shay from KR Models. Every few months I emailed and got "it's on the way". There's my review of the KR model!
Terry
Like others have posted, the size and cost ratio to customers doesn't compute. They see small engine they expect a cheap price. Well that doesn't work in today's world with model trains. You get what you pay for and the majority of hobbyists today are rivet or near-rivet counters (like myself) so the companies go where the market is otherwise they would go out of business. Hobbbyists wanting cheap locos like it was the 1980's again are a loud minority. You know the saying, money talks, BS walks. People can post all they want online but unless companies see $$ they won't budge. Guess who has the money going in to company coffers? The rivet-counters.
Back on point, look at Broadway Limited's Atlantic. Perfect engine to run on small layouts for a popular railroad (Pennsylvania). Guess what customers did? Complain about how much they were going for which was the same as their other big steam. That turned off a lot of customers. You can still find them everywhere. Heck you can find them on Broadway's own website for a fraction of the price and they are sitting whereas other steam models for sale on there came and went, they still sit. The only popular Atlantic that sold and somewhat hard to find was Lindbergh's 1927 special.
Same can be said for Bachmann's reissued Decapod. They go for $400+ despite having the latest TCS WOW decoder in them. For that price customers would rather buy big steam or a diesel consist than a small and unpopular even in its time steam engine.
The only current production cheap steam you will find on mainline hobby websites are Bachmann's other small steam like their 1980's 2-6-0, 2-6-2, etc. but they are based on old tooling which wasn't the best quality so are cheap for a reason.
So my post can be summed up as:
1) Customers don't want to pay the price quality small steam will go for these days.
2) The vast majority of people model what they see in modern times which are big diesels. Unless you visit a heritage steam railroad or museum you won't see small steam at all. Even then most will see it as a cool experience but it does not equate to all of a sudden wanting to model the 1890's.
scott7891 Like others have posted, the size and cost ratio to customers doesn't compute. They see small engine they expect a cheap price.
Like others have posted, the size and cost ratio to customers doesn't compute. They see small engine they expect a cheap price.
A small steamer is almost as expensive to produce as a large one. Materials costs are slightly less, as is tooling and labor (by maybe 10-15%), but otherwise the costs are about the same.
Back on point, look at Broadway Limited's Atlantic. Perfect engine to run on small layouts for a popular railroad (Pennsylvania). Guess what customers did? Complain about how much they were going for which was the same as their other big steam. That turned off a lot of customers.
That's unfortunate. It's a beautiful locomotive. I would have picked up at least one of them for my not-so-small layout and relettered them for the Q, but that belpaire firebox is just too out of place. If they would make a more generic version I'd be all over it.
Their Spectrum line was really good, but apparently didn't generate much profit. Sadly, they've been moving back towards the cheaper stuff that to me isn't worth even it's more moderate price.
In my opinion, small to medium steam (Prairies, Pacifics, Atlantics, etc.) usually look better on a layout because their size is more proportional to the train lengths we mostly run. A Big Boy on a ten car train just doesn't look right to me.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
A little 0.4.0 locomotive with autocoach doesn't take over the layout.
IMG_2565 by David Harrison, on Flickr
Neither does a breakdown train with a diesel loco
IMG_1969 by David Harrison, on Flickr
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
Curious how well the small runs of SP cab forwards did. My gut is not very well although I wish otherwise. They're some of the largest steamers around yet are very specialized which limits their appeal. Much like any size Pennsey steam. The big boys at least have rock star status and are running on modern day excursion trains.
MJ4562 Curious how well the small runs of SP cab forwards did. My gut is not very well although I wish otherwise. They're some of the largest steamers around yet are very specialized which limits their appeal. Much like any size Pennsey steam. The big boys at least have rock star status and are running on modern day excursion trains.
I've always been under the suspicion that part of why MTH struggled in HO scale was because they did a lot of very large, expensive, and complicated locomotives for very niche prototypes. The SP Cab Forward and Erie Triplex are two examples of that. They also seemed to try to consistently produce all of their locomotives, which very few manufacturers do. Myself and my close hobby friends never had good luck with MTH electronics anyways, which probably limited the sales as well.
Pruitt In my opinion, small to medium steam (Prairies, Pacifics, Atlantics, etc.) usually look better on a layout because their size is more proportional to the train lengths we mostly run. A Big Boy on a ten car train just doesn't look right to me.
allegedlynerdy I've always been under the suspicion that part of why MTH struggled in HO scale was because they did a lot of very large, expensive, and complicated locomotives for very niche prototypes.
I've always been under the suspicion that part of why MTH struggled in HO scale was because they did a lot of very large, expensive, and complicated locomotives for very niche prototypes.
That isn't true. It struggled because they did their own electronic communication system (DCS) when HO was already standardized under the DCC protocols. Granted it, at least they made it mostly compatible with DCC so you weren't completely out to dry. Since many modelers run their railroads in multi-unit consists they want to be able to run any unit, any time, on any train like a real railroad. With MTH's DCS you couldn't do it unless you slaved the other DCC units to the MTH one and that in itself was a pain. Since I run my units separately unless it is a factory set this didn't bother me and MTH made prototypes I wanted that other didn't make to my standard or updated in a while like the Mohawks, Berkshires, Alleghenies, Golden States, Empire State Express Hudson, etc.
allegedlynerdyThe SP Cab Forward and Erie Triplex are two examples of that. They also seemed to try to consistently produce all of their locomotives, which very few manufacturers do.
The Cab Forward is hardly niche as it is a very well known loco in steam circles. Broadway Limited, Intermountain, and AHM/Rivarossi made Cab Forwards as well so it isn't like it was a one off design in the model train world.
The Triplex seems to be popular enough that whenever I see one posted for sale somewhere it gets bought up instantly or bid to crazy high prices like on eBay. I am looking for a Virginian one myself.
allegedlynerdyMyself and my close hobby friends never had good luck with MTH electronics anyways, which probably limited the sales as well.
It depends on when MTH made it.
Mid-2000's when they first came out- terrible
Late 2000's-mid 2010's- this was their best time when they seemed to get things right
Late 2010's-2021- quality tanked again and COVID was the death knell. I wouldn't buy anything MTH HO past 2017 manufactured.
scott7891The Cab Forward is hardly niche as it is a very well known loco in steam circles. Broadway Limited, Intermountain, and AHM/Rivarossi made Cab Forwards as well so it isn't like it was a one off design in the model train world. The Triplex seems to be popular enough that whenever I see one posted for sale somewhere it gets bought up instantly or bid to crazy high prices like on eBay. I am looking for a Virginian one myself.
Just to give you an idea of the enduring popularity of those two designs, the first model railroading magazine I ever bought back in 1964 had an ad on the inside front cover by a major imoprter (PFM ?) which showcased their currently available locomotives. And sure enough, there was the Big Boy and Triplex. It also had a true classic, ATSF's Class 1950 heavy Consolidation
This was built in huge quantities for a brass locomotive by several different manufacturers over the years so its a good bet you can find one at a train show or on-line
scott7891The Cab Forward is hardly niche as it is a very well known loco in steam circles. Broadway Limited, Intermountain, and AHM/Rivarossi made Cab Forwards as well so it isn't like it was a one off design in the model train world.
It's niche in the fact that only SP used Cab Forwards and they're so distinctive that it's hard to justify using one unless you model the SP western lines. In N scale only a few Cab Forwards have been produced, imported by Key and Hallmark, but they're of mixed quality and difficult to find. I hope to see new ones produced as the transition era gains popularity in N scale.
scott7891 allegedlynerdy I've always been under the suspicion that part of why MTH struggled in HO scale was because they did a lot of very large, expensive, and complicated locomotives for very niche prototypes. That isn't true. It struggled because they did their own electronic communication system (DCS) when HO was already standardized under the DCC protocols. Granted it, at least they made it mostly compatible with DCC so you weren't completely out to dry. Since many modelers run their railroads in multi-unit consists they want to be able to run any unit, any time, on any train like a real railroad. With MTH's DCS you couldn't do it unless you slaved the other DCC units to the MTH one and that in itself was a pain. Since I run my units separately unless it is a factory set this didn't bother me and MTH made prototypes I wanted that other didn't make to my standard or updated in a while like the Mohawks, Berkshires, Alleghenies, Golden States, Empire State Express Hudson, etc.
I will give, they did have a good selections but their DCS system was just a terrible choice, especially with it advertising DCC standards compatibility when that was only functionally true in the broadest sense - at least in the experience of myself and those around me.
scott7891 allegedlynerdy The SP Cab Forward and Erie Triplex are two examples of that. They also seemed to try to consistently produce all of their locomotives, which very few manufacturers do. The Cab Forward is hardly niche as it is a very well known loco in steam circles. Broadway Limited, Intermountain, and AHM/Rivarossi made Cab Forwards as well so it isn't like it was a one off design in the model train world. The Triplex seems to be popular enough that whenever I see one posted for sale somewhere it gets bought up instantly or bid to crazy high prices like on eBay. I am looking for a Virginian one myself.
allegedlynerdy The SP Cab Forward and Erie Triplex are two examples of that. They also seemed to try to consistently produce all of their locomotives, which very few manufacturers do.
I guess I should say niche but still highly represented in the market. I will give the Triplex is a unique prototype that I am glad that they made, but I am not sure if it should've been a bread and butter product which in my view they tried to push it as - of course every one of their products I feel they tried to keep in constant production, which I suspect was also an issue.
scott7891 allegedlynerdy Myself and my close hobby friends never had good luck with MTH electronics anyways, which probably limited the sales as well. It depends on when MTH made it. Mid-2000's when they first came out- terrible Late 2000's-mid 2010's- this was their best time when they seemed to get things right Late 2010's-2021- quality tanked again and COVID was the death knell. I wouldn't buy anything MTH HO past 2017 manufactured.
allegedlynerdy Myself and my close hobby friends never had good luck with MTH electronics anyways, which probably limited the sales as well.
All of the ones that my father bought were NS Heritage units from the 2012-2014 manufacture dates, and none of them ever worked properly. He Genuinely owns two of the NKP and PRR now, as he bought the Bachmann ones to replace them because they were such bad runners. They do make good shelf displays but for what he paid for them that is a bit ridiculous.
MTH made some great products otherwise, their NYC boxcars were top tier and their passenger coach sets are also really good. And their locomotives are also very detailed as well, they just never ran okay in our experience.
If we ever see it, it was promised in the fall of 2021, I got tired of waiting and cancelled my orders. Apparently we are still waiting.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
MJ4562 scott7891 The Cab Forward is hardly niche as it is a very well known loco in steam circles. Broadway Limited, Intermountain, and AHM/Rivarossi made Cab Forwards as well so it isn't like it was a one off design in the model train world. It's niche in the fact that only SP used Cab Forwards and they're so distinctive that it's hard to justify using one unless you model the SP western lines. In N scale only a few Cab Forwards have been produced, imported by Key and Hallmark, but they're of mixed quality and difficult to find. I hope to see new ones produced as the transition era gains popularity in N scale.
scott7891 The Cab Forward is hardly niche as it is a very well known loco in steam circles. Broadway Limited, Intermountain, and AHM/Rivarossi made Cab Forwards as well so it isn't like it was a one off design in the model train world.
Except I wasn't talking about its nicheness on real operational railroading, I was talking about it in a general knowledge sense and available models to purchase in HO Scale, not N.
If you are in to steam railroading, you have heard of the SP Cab Forward. It is quite common knowledge in that circle. Four mainline model companies (companies besides brass imports) in HO made the Cab Forward. Most modelers I would say are collectors who want to run trains they find interesting and many bought the Cab Forward hence why companies shelled out money to have them made otherwise they would not bother. Many do not run a specific railroad and prototype.
The Triplex on the other hand is definitely niche.