I have four BLI steamers and I have discovered that the right side drivers do not pick up power on any of them. I first discovered the problem with my K-4 Pacific. It would stall when passing over insulated frogs on my turnouts. The way I determined the problem was to put the loco on a straight section of track and turn on the bell. I then tip one side of the loco off the track and then the other. I do the same with the tender. When the bell cuts off, I know I have lost power. I discovered that with the K-4, I lost power when I tipped the right side tender wheels off the track, telling me there was no right side pick up from the loco. At the time, I also had a Pennsy Mountain but it wasn't giving me stalling problems so I figured it was just a workmanship problem. Since then I have acquired a NYC Mohawk and Niagra from BLI. I would experience occasional stalls with them and I attributed it to dirty track but when the problem persisted, I began testing them the same way I did with the K-4. That's when I learned that all four were not getting pick up from the right side drivers. I also discovered that the Mountain had wipers on both the front and rear truck of the axles. I think the reason it has never given me problems is that when one truck is on an insulated frog, the other is still picking up power. The Mohawk, which has the same wheel arrangement, doesn't use wipers. I used my bell test to determine that only the front truck of the tender is picking up power. When that truck passes over an insulated frog, the loco stalls.
When I discovered and fixed the problem with the K-4, I attributed it to shoddy workmanship in the assembly process but now I know that it is a serious flaw in the BLI design and doesn't speak too well of that company.
It's been so long since I corrected the problem on the Pacific that I can't remember exactly what I did to fix it. I remember having to disassemble the loco but don't remember specifically what I did. I think I read a thread in which this problem was discussed within the last few years but I can't find it and can't remember the recommended solutions. Can anyone shed some light on fixes for this problem.
I'm skeptical, but tell us more.
Paragon, Paragon 2, Paragon 3, Paragon 4?
Without going down to my layout to check my BLI steamers, don't the tenders have power pickups as well as the drivers on the engines?
I have a lot of Paragons and Paragon 2s, and I have never experienced such a problem. I am not doubting you, but just saying.
Rich
Alton Junction
Maybe I didn't describe the problem clearly enough. Yes they get pick up from the tenders. The problem is they ONLY get pick up from the tenders on the right side and the problems come from the ones that only get pick up from the front truck of the tender. When that hits an insulated frog, the engine stalls. I'm also guessing that only one or two axles from the tender truck gets pick up because the insulated frogs aren't long enough for the entire truck to be on insulated track at the same time.
The boxes for all of these simply say Paragon. I do have four BLI Hudsons that don't have this problem. I can tip the tender either way and the bell continues to clang. For some reason this is only a problem with the four I described in the OP and it isn't really a problem with the Pennsy Mountain because that gets pick up from both the front and rear trucks of the tender.
I found the thread in which this had been discussed before.
Anyone have pick up issues with BLI Paragon locomotives? - Model Railroader Magazine - Model Railroading, Model Trains, Reviews, Track Plans, and Forums
The late Randy Rinker wrote the following.
"ANother issue may have been like that in my PCM T1, one of the wires in the tender was not correctly inserted into the plug in connector that connected the pickups to the circuit board (not the connector between loco and tender). The result here was that pickup was only on the one side fo the tender trucks, no power on one side was coming from the loco wheels at all. I simply put the conenctor pin back in the correct orientation and that solved that problem, no more stalling at even the slowest speed over unpowered frogs."
Like me, he had a problem getting power from the loco wheels on one side. He seems to only have had the problem only on one of his locos. Maybe the problem isn't in the design but in the quality of the assembly. It seems strange to me that all of my BLI locos other than the four Hudsons, would have the same flaw.
Odd, sounds like a pretty easy fix though. If all the wheels from one side dont pickup, its just a loose or broken wire, or a loose wire plug as you mentioned. Just your classic case of poor QC from BLI.
I do know paragon 3 decoders are far more sensitive to pickup issues than even paragon/paragon2...so be glad atleast you dont have paragon 3.
Charles
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John-NYBWLike me, he had a problem getting power from the loco wheels on one side.
I've recently begun a program of sorting through my roster of BLI locomotives and deciding which ones will get treated to a replacement decoder and better speakers along with a general "tune up".
While stripping the OEM components I sometimes find areas that need improvements. In my case as far as the driver pickups it was the left side that was intermittent or completely dead.
Using a continuity meter I began "ringing out" circuitry and found that the location of the attachment of the board that contained the engine/tender jumper plug to the frame was completely "open" electrically.
BLI_K4_SL_board by Edmund, on Flickr
See the screw head near the "trackL" print. There was NO continuity from the pot-metal frame to the board. I found this situation on four BLI locos I was working on.
By lightly filing away the coating, whatever it is, maybe lacquer-based? I could regain a good continuity there. I also coated the screw and around the PC board hole with No-Ox-ide. Even the screw they use has a blackening agent on it that seems to resist continuity.
Here's all the junk I ripped out of the streamlined K4:
BLI_K4_SL_Parts by Edmund, on Flickr
This engine was one of the worst performers I've had from BLI in recent months. Even after I added a "GoPack" capacitor I still had stalling issues. Another contributor here with lots of BLI repair experience mentioned a motor protection circuit on the P3 board.
You are correct that there are only two wheels on each side of the tender for pickup, and with the traction tires on the engine only four wheels there. Imagine my disappointment after I installed a new Tsunami2 decoder in there and on one of the laps around the layout the K4 stopped "dead in its tracks"!
The pickup is THAT bad. Fortunately, even after installing larger speakers and the Tsunami decoder plus a little weight there was still a bit of room in the tender for a Current Keeper 2 from Soundtraxx.
John-NYBWMaybe the problem isn't in the design but in the quality of the assembly.
Or a bit of both.
The design of the K4 above has a pin that passes through the right pickup frame. This pin was actually shorting at the point where it passes through the frame.
Poor design.
On another loco, a PRR H10 I was having pickup issues and I discovered a wire terminal that had never been attached to the frame:
IMG_5134 by Edmund, on Flickr
The hole for the screw had not been tapped or had ever had a screw in it so I know it came this wat from the factory.
I've had a few pinched wires, poor jumper socket wiring, bad motors, bad decoders and, well lots of other issues. Still Broadway service is very helpful and they will work with you to solve issues even on older locos.
NYC_S2_BLI-wire by Edmund, on Flickr
They replaced the axle gears on a pair of PRR I1s that had cracked. I sent them the drivers and they put the new gears on for me and returned them.
A little more here:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/278649.aspx
Good Luck, Ed
I have always found that pressing down on a BLI tender seems to restore power. This suggests to me that their tenders are considerably too light. I have a Lionel HO Challenger, metal all the way, and that beast has been my bar-none most dependable runner on all four layouts to date. In fact, on the advice years ago of a person who bothered to report in another site what he did to fix some slight problems with the Lionel HO Challenger, I removed a heavy 3/4" cubed weight from the tender and packed the speakers, two of them mounted at an angle, with some polyfiber packing to improve the sound resonance. I don't know that the latter really made a difference, since I did this all immediately I received it, but the tender is still plenty heavy with its metal shell and twin speakers in a cradle.
As for the tender vs driver pickup problem, I do have some occasional iffy performance from some BLI steamers, notably a Hudson and both Niagaras. But, my Niagaras have been generally good, and I'm pretty darned sure their tenders have several axles that pick up from either rail. I have never bothered to look to see what happens with the drivers.
When I get back to running (I'm still trying to finish the yard and add some trees), I'm going to add weight to the most affected tender and see if that helps at all.
Ed,
I thought I had fixed my K4 but a couple years ago I started to have stalling problems again so I bought a couple Keep Alives from Tony's, one for the K4 and one for my SW7 switcher. The problem is I can't find any clear cut instructions for where to hook up the different wires. All the instructions start out with "find the" and then follow with terminology that might as well be written in Chinese. If I have to "find the", there is a good possibility I will find the wrong place and fry the decoder. I was browsing through another website regarding the issue and found a guy who had done just that. I've had a KA3 and KA4 Keep Alive for two years and they are still on the shelf because I can't find simple instructions for where to solder the wires. I can't even remember which Keep Alive Tony's told me was for the K4 and which one was for the SW7. Since you've done an install for a K4, can you tell me where the various wires are supposed to attach.
John-NYBW The problem is I can't find any clear cut instructions for where to hook up the different wires.
Here's the "Go-Pack" that I added to an older Paragon 3 K4:
BLI_K4_cap2 by Edmund, on Flickr
This video can tell you more:
When I recently installed a GoPack in one of my P5a electrics that was a "simple" plug-in (revision H boards have a socket) the "stay alive" feature wasn't working at all.
After doing some further digging I discovered that in order to activate the Go Pack I had to change CV 221 to "0". Once I did that everything worked fine.
I've used capacitor packs from BLI, Soundtraxx and TCS on the P2 and P3 decoders with no issues.
Here is a look at the streamlined K4 which has a shorter tender. The white package under the kapton tape (between the speaker and the added weights) is the Soundtraxx capacitor I added:
BLI_Tender-Tsunami by Edmund, on Flickr
This shows the lead tender truck with only two out of six wheels picking up current (sometimes):
BLI_Tender-pickup by Edmund, on Flickr
The oily gunk on the axle wipers is some CRC 6-26 I added to see if that would help (it didn't).
One more thing about BLI locos and pickup issues. I've found that running them is good therapy, both for the operator and the locomotive.
I believe some of the coatings used on wheel treads and some of the internal parts will inhibit current pickup. Frequent and continuous running seems to improve the overall reliability of the engine, IMHO.
Regards, Ed
selector I have always found that pressing down on a BLI tender seems to restore power. This suggests to me that their tenders are considerably too light. I have a Lionel HO Challenger, metal all the way, and that beast has been my bar-none most dependable runner on all four layouts to date. In fact, on the advice years ago of a person who bothered to report in another site what he did to fix some slight problems with the Lionel HO Challenger, I removed a heavy 3/4" cubed weight from the tender and packed the speakers, two of them mounted at an angle, with some polyfiber packing to improve the sound resonance. I don't know that the latter really made a difference, since I did this all immediately I received it, but the tender is still plenty heavy with its metal shell and twin speakers in a cradle. As for the tender vs driver pickup problem, I do have some occasional iffy performance from some BLI steamers, notably a Hudson and both Niagaras. But, my Niagaras have been generally good, and I'm pretty darned sure their tenders have several axles that pick up from either rail. I have never bothered to look to see what happens with the drivers. When I get back to running (I'm still trying to finish the yard and add some trees), I'm going to add weight to the most affected tender and see if that helps at all.
The tender on my Mohawk has a metal body and seems plenty heavy. As soon as the front wheels of the front tender truck hit the insulated frog, the engine stalls. If it is going at top speed, it sometimes will slide over the insulated frog and start up again after briefly cutting out. With the front two right hand wheels of the front tender truck over frog, I tried pushing down but it did not start up when I did that so I don't think the problem is a lack of weight. The problem is that due to poor design or shoddy assembly, only one wheel on the right side of the loco/tender seems to be able to pick up power and that problem is on BLI. I don't understand why some of the steamers, like my Hudsons are powered through both the driver wheels and the tender on both sides but these few are not.
John-NYBW I found the thread in which this had been discussed before. Anyone have pick up issues with BLI Paragon locomotives? - Model Railroader Magazine - Model Railroading, Model Trains, Reviews, Track Plans, and Forums The late Randy Rinker wrote the following. "ANother issue may have been like that in my PCM T1, one of the wires in the tender was not correctly inserted into the plug in connector that connected the pickups to the circuit board (not the connector between loco and tender). The result here was that pickup was only on the one side fo the tender trucks, no power on one side was coming from the loco wheels at all. I simply put the conenctor pin back in the correct orientation and that solved that problem, no more stalling at even the slowest speed over unpowered frogs."
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/171455.aspx
richhotrain John-NYBW I found the thread in which this had been discussed before. Anyone have pick up issues with BLI Paragon locomotives? - Model Railroader Magazine - Model Railroading, Model Trains, Reviews, Track Plans, and Forums The late Randy Rinker wrote the following. "ANother issue may have been like that in my PCM T1, one of the wires in the tender was not correctly inserted into the plug in connector that connected the pickups to the circuit board (not the connector between loco and tender). The result here was that pickup was only on the one side fo the tender trucks, no power on one side was coming from the loco wheels at all. I simply put the conenctor pin back in the correct orientation and that solved that problem, no more stalling at even the slowest speed over unpowered frogs." Go back to that thread and read Randy's paragraph just before the one that you quoted. Randy was replying to my post about a stalling problem on turnouts with a BLI Paragon steamer, a NYC 4-6-2 Hudson. I had totally forgotten about an issue with that loco, but Randy blamed the wheels. http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/171455.aspx Rich
Go back to that thread and read Randy's paragraph just before the one that you quoted. Randy was replying to my post about a stalling problem on turnouts with a BLI Paragon steamer, a NYC 4-6-2 Hudson. I had totally forgotten about an issue with that loco, but Randy blamed the wheels.
He was identifying two different problems. Certainly dirty wheels can be an issue causing locos to stall but there is also a problem unique to some BLI steamers with lack of electrical pick up from the drivers. Whether this is due to a design flaw or shoddy assembly I don't know but the problem is there and it doesn't speak well of BLI's quality control that it is not an uncommon problem.
I described the way I determined the problem. I placed a stationary steamer on a powered track and turned on the bell. I would tip the loco so the wheels on one side and then the other were off the track and then did the same with the tender. The only time the bell went silent was when I tipped the right side tender wheels off the track. That tells me that the only electrical pick up on the right side is through the tender wheels, not through the driver wheels. If you can come up with another explanation other than that, I'd be glad to hear it. The fact this happens with four different models of BLI steamers indicates to me it is not an uncommon problem. I don't have a stalling problem with my BLI Hudsons because they pick up power from the drivers on both sides. I also don't have a stalling problem with the Pennsy Mountain because that is equipped with wipers on both the front and rear tender trucks so even if the front truck is over dead rail, the rear truck maintains electrical pick up. I don't know why they didn't do that with all their steamers. If they had, I could live with their dead driver wheels.
John, my only point in citing Randy's previous paragraph in his post on that thread was that he was observing that the early runs of BLI steam locos had sintered iron wheels which are anything but smooth and pick up dirt. Here is his exact quote:
The early runs of BLI steam locos had sintered iron wheels (like old Athearn Blue Box locos) which are antyhing but smooth, which helps traction but pick up dirt like a magnet picks up iron filings. This was later swiched to nickel plated wheels (and I believe they offered replacements for early purchasers) which are much less likely to pick up a caking layer of dirt, at the expense of some traction. What you get is a smooth surface in contact with a smooth surface so better electrical transfer from the track to the loco. The rough nature of sintered wheels means the contact is like a bunch of pinpoints over the area in contact with the rail. For a gross approximation, consider a piece of aluminum foil, crumpled and spread out. Lay it on your desk - how much surface area is actually in contact with the desktop? Now take a piece that is perfectly smooth like it is on the roll - now how much area is in contact with the desktop?
So, I was simply trying to point out that Randy felt that this could be one reason for locos some BLI Paragons stopping on turnouts. I am only trying to be helpful to you in solving this issue.
Again, I'll point out something I've come across on at least a third of the BLI engines that I have traced driving wheel pickup issues to.
The "split-frame" design is common among manufacturers. Broadway uses several methods to get the current off the frame and into the wiring for the engine/tender connection in order to feed track voltage back to the decoder.
While checking continuity I fornd that most weak spots are where either a brass eyelet or the PC boadr is attached to the frame.
BLI does not scrape away the darkening agent (lacquer, maybe?) and the screws are also chemically blackened. Add to this the traces of corrosion I've found in the threads exacerbated by age, moisture and dissimilar metals I've found these connections to be faulty at best. Yes, the screw was very snug, yet the path through it was electrically insulated.
BLI_JST_socket by Edmund, on Flickr
The screw shown where the PC board is attached here should provide a decent current path from the wheel tread, through the axle and bearing into the frame half and be continuous through that screw and hence onto the trace of the PC board.
It does not.
Likewise, the black wire leading forward from the right side of the board (Right rail pickup) leads to a brass eyelet that can also show signs of poor continuity.
This example the wire is gray (BLI likes to mix up all the colors, black, brown and gray and assign them to random parts of the circuitry).
IMG_5136 by Edmund, on Flickr
These areas should be carefully checked. BLI could have taken a little more care in assuring a good, electrically solid connection at these points but it seems they have not.
The mating surface of the frame should be lightly filed to bare metal, the brass eye and/or PC board solder trace where it contacts the screw should be cleaned and, ideally, a screw that is not coated with a blackening agent should be used.
I'm only trying to help, too.
OK, I went down and tested my two oldest BLI Paragon steamers for pick up. Here are my results for both locos, noting that both locos performed identically. And, this is simply meant to be for what it is worth. As Ed noted, "Broadway uses several methods...".
1. I lifted the tender off the rails, and the loco remained fully powered, so at least on my two Paragons, the drivers are powered.
2. I lifted the engine off the rails, and the loco remained fully powered, so at least on my two Paragons, the tender is fully powered.
3. With the engine drivers on the rails, I lift either side of the tender and the loco remains fully powered, as expected.
4. With the engine drivers off the rails, the tender must remain fully seated on the rails, but that makes sense since you need both polarities reaching the decoder.
5. With the tender fully seated on the rails, full power remains even if I lifted one side of the driver wheels off the rails, as expected.
One other note to John...
John-NYBW I discovered that with the K-4, I lost power when I tipped the right side tender wheels off the track, telling me there was no right side pick up from the loco.
I discovered that with the K-4, I lost power when I tipped the right side tender wheels off the track, telling me there was no right side pick up from the loco.
richhotrain One other note to John... John-NYBW I discovered that with the K-4, I lost power when I tipped the right side tender wheels off the track, telling me there was no right side pick up from the loco. Just for clarity, that test tells you that the left side of the tender has no power, not the right side, and that at least the left side drivers have no power. Rich
Just for clarity, that test tells you that the left side of the tender has no power, not the right side, and that at least the left side drivers have no power.
That makes no sense. There has to be electrical connectivity on both sides of a loco. If I lose power when only raising the right side wheels of the tender, that means the only right side connection I am getting is from the tender. If I wasn't getting power from the left side of the tender, the bell would quit clanging when I lift the left side drivers off the tracks. If I wasn't getting power from the left side drivers, the bell would quit clanging when I lifted the left side tender off the track. Since neither of those happened, that tells me I'm getting pick up on the left side from both the drivers and the tender. The problem is I only get power on the right side from the tender, not the drivers.
Based on Ed's comment, it seems to be a problem with about 1/3 of BLI's steamers. Based on my experience, that estimate seems to be in the ballpark. Whether it is 1/4, 1/3, or 1/2 of them that have this problem, that is way too many for a high end loco. Other than the Hudsons which I bought from Trainworld at the blowout price of $130, these locos sold in the $300-400 range about 10-15 years ago. Today they would be in the $500-600. That is a high end price range and for that money, we should expect high end quality. BLI has not delivered that.
John-NYBW richhotrain One other note to John... John-NYBW I discovered that with the K-4, I lost power when I tipped the right side tender wheels off the track, telling me there was no right side pick up from the loco. Just for clarity, that test tells you that the left side of the tender has no power, not the right side, and that at least the left side drivers have no power. Rich That makes no sense.
That makes no sense.
But, be that as it may, are you saying that all four of those problem locomotives have no power pickups on the right side drivers? Or, are you saying that the right side driver pickups are not working to bring power up from the rails, through the driver wheels, to the decoders?
John-NYBW I described the way I determined the problem. I placed a stationary steamer on a powered track and turned on the bell. I would tip the loco so the wheels on one side and then the other were off the track and then did the same with the tender. The only time the bell went silent was when I tipped the right side tender wheels off the track. That tells me that the only electrical pick up on the right side is through the tender wheels, not through the driver wheels. If you can come up with another explanation other than that, I'd be glad to hear it. The fact this happens with four different models of BLI steamers indicates to me it is not an uncommon problem. I don't have a stalling problem with my BLI Hudsons because they pick up power from the drivers on both sides. I also don't have a stalling problem with the Pennsy Mountain because that is equipped with wipers on both the front and rear tender trucks so even if the front truck is over dead rail, the rear truck maintains electrical pick up. I don't know why they didn't do that with all their steamers. If they had, I could live with their dead driver wheels.
Are you saying that all four of those problem locomotives have no power pickups on the right side drivers? Or, are you saying that the right side driver pickups are not working to bring power up from the rails, through the driver wheels, to the decoders?
richhotrain John-NYBW I described the way I determined the problem. I placed a stationary steamer on a powered track and turned on the bell. I would tip the loco so the wheels on one side and then the other were off the track and then did the same with the tender. The only time the bell went silent was when I tipped the right side tender wheels off the track. That tells me that the only electrical pick up on the right side is through the tender wheels, not through the driver wheels. If you can come up with another explanation other than that, I'd be glad to hear it. The fact this happens with four different models of BLI steamers indicates to me it is not an uncommon problem. I don't have a stalling problem with my BLI Hudsons because they pick up power from the drivers on both sides. I also don't have a stalling problem with the Pennsy Mountain because that is equipped with wipers on both the front and rear tender trucks so even if the front truck is over dead rail, the rear truck maintains electrical pick up. I don't know why they didn't do that with all their steamers. If they had, I could live with their dead driver wheels. Hey, John, I just went back and re-read the entire thread, and I focused on this particular reply from you. OK, I get what you are saying about the driver wheels, which intensifies my question. Are you saying that all four of those problem locomotives have no power pickups on the right side drivers? Or, are you saying that the right side driver pickups are not working to bring power up from the rails, through the driver wheels, to the decoders? Rich
Hey, John, I just went back and re-read the entire thread, and I focused on this particular reply from you. OK, I get what you are saying about the driver wheels, which intensifies my question.
Without opening up these locos, I can't say. All I know is that the driver wheels on the right are not picking up power. When I first faced this problem about ten years ago with the K-4, my recollection is the problem was what Ed has described. There was a faulty wire connection to the pickups. My recollection is it was very similar to what Ed described as follows:
"While checking continuity I found that most weak spots are where either a brass eyelet or the PC boadr is attached to the frame.
BLI does not scrape away the darkening agent (lacquer, maybe?) and the screws are also chemically blackened. Add to this the traces of corrosion I've found in the threads exacerbated by age, moisture and dissimilar metals I've found these connections to be faulty at best. Yes, the screw was very snug, yet the path through it was electrically insulated."
John-NYBW richhotrain John-NYBW I described the way I determined the problem. I placed a stationary steamer on a powered track and turned on the bell. I would tip the loco so the wheels on one side and then the other were off the track and then did the same with the tender. The only time the bell went silent was when I tipped the right side tender wheels off the track. That tells me that the only electrical pick up on the right side is through the tender wheels, not through the driver wheels. If you can come up with another explanation other than that, I'd be glad to hear it. The fact this happens with four different models of BLI steamers indicates to me it is not an uncommon problem. I don't have a stalling problem with my BLI Hudsons because they pick up power from the drivers on both sides. I also don't have a stalling problem with the Pennsy Mountain because that is equipped with wipers on both the front and rear tender trucks so even if the front truck is over dead rail, the rear truck maintains electrical pick up. I don't know why they didn't do that with all their steamers. If they had, I could live with their dead driver wheels. Hey, John, I just went back and re-read the entire thread, and I focused on this particular reply from you. OK, I get what you are saying about the driver wheels, which intensifies my question. Are you saying that all four of those problem locomotives have no power pickups on the right side drivers? Or, are you saying that the right side driver pickups are not working to bring power up from the rails, through the driver wheels, to the decoders? Rich Without opening up these locos, I can't say. All I know is that the driver wheels on the right are not picking up power. When I first faced this problem about ten years ago with the K-4, my recollection is the problem was what Ed has described. There was a faulty wire connection to the pickups. My recollection is it was very similar to what Ed described as follows: "While checking continuity I found that most weak spots are where either a brass eyelet or the PC boadr is attached to the frame. BLI does not scrape away the darkening agent (lacquer, maybe?) and the screws are also chemically blackened. Add to this the traces of corrosion I've found in the threads exacerbated by age, moisture and dissimilar metals I've found these connections to be faulty at best. Yes, the screw was very snug, yet the path through it was electrically insulated."
About the only suggestion that I can offer at this point is to send one back to BLI for evaluation and repair.
Good luck with whatever you do and keep us posted.
richhotrain Interesting. I wonder if those early Paragons only had left side pickups on the drivers and only had right side pickups on the tenders. As I say, on my two Paragons, they are all wheel pickup. About the only suggestion that I can offer at this point is to send one back to BLI for evaluation and repair. Good luck with whatever you do and keep us posted.
Interesting. I wonder if those early Paragons only had left side pickups on the drivers and only had right side pickups on the tenders. As I say, on my two Paragons, they are all wheel pickup.
I'm sure the tender has two sided pick up. When I did my bell test, when I tipped the left side drivers off the track, the bell kept clanging indicating it was still getting left side pick up from the tender.
I think Ed is on the right track. When I started the OP, I remembered the previous thread but not the specifics and was hoping to get steered in the right direction before looking under the hood. It seems it's probably not a design flaw but a workmanship problem which is why it seems to be a sporadic problem. I thought I had resolved the problem with my K4 about ten years ago but the problem returned so I decided to give the Keep Alives a try. Unfortunately I couldn't find definitive instructions on where to solder it and feared frying the decoder if I picked the wrong place. I'm hoping my decoder is the same one Ed applied his to because it looks pretty definitive. It also looks like the diagram on the BLI website. I just won't know until I open up my K4 whether I have the same generation Paragon as Ed. The K4 was one of my earliest locos I purchased with factory sound so I am guessing it is about 15 years old. If that works out, I might consider Keep Alives for all the problem locos but first I think I will try the other fix Ed suggested.
Thanks to all who replied.
Found this in a 2005 review of the BLI Paragon K-4:
Electrical pickup is through all six drivers but only four tender wheels.
https://www.trains.com/mrr/news-reviews/reviews/staff-reviews/broadway-limited-imports-ho-scale-pennsylvania-rr-k4s-4-6-2-pacific-steam-locomotive-includes-sound/
richhotrain Found this in a 2005 review of the BLI Paragon K-4: Electrical pickup is through all six drivers but only four tender wheels. https://www.trains.com/mrr/news-reviews/reviews/staff-reviews/broadway-limited-imports-ho-scale-pennsylvania-rr-k4s-4-6-2-pacific-steam-locomotive-includes-sound/ Rich
Yes, that is the model I have, right down to the 1361 road number. Unfortunately the decoder is different than the one Ed posted a picture of so I am still at a loss as to where to attach the Keep Alive. From the article, it appears it is supposed to get electrical pick up from drivers on both sides so the fact man doesn't would appear to be from the quality of the assembly rather than a design flaw.
I did discover one curious thing. Like my Pennsy M1B Mountain, it has wipers on both front and year truck of the tender. It should get power from both so I'm not sure why it stalls on insulated frogs when my M1B does not.
I located the original box and it indicates it is a QSI decoder. I'm going to do a google search to see if I can find instructions for attaching the Keep Alive. I already did one search and this is typical of the instructions I find for installing a Keep Alive:
"You will need to find the rectifier bridge or the 4 rectifier diodes. Then you will need to decipher where you have rectified DC track voltage on the board. Also, you may look for the "function common" or "Blue wire pin". This is where the positive connection will be made. A look at the underside of the board might help someone pinpoint the proper connection points."
I have no idea what a rectifier bridge or rectifier diode is or what they look like. This is what I meant when I said every instruction I have located for installing a Keep Alive might as well be written in Chinese for all the good they do me.
So, it looks a lot more like a defect, an "old age/corrossion", or a "crud build up" issue, not a design error...
Don't get me wrong, some BLI designs were indeed flawed. (Reed switch for chuff sensor on the Mikado's?)
But it appears that, as designed, the K4 is supposedly all wheel pick-up on the loco drivers, and outside axles (1st and 4th axles I would guess) on the tender trucks.
Interestingly, the other linked thread, a post further down listed a series of tests that one could perform, and would have shown quickly the defect is somewhere inside the locomotive itself, while tether, and tender are fine.
As is the actual design itself. While that particular design wasn't a problem, the execution by the factory (or even parts supplier issues? Supplied incorrect screws, for instance...) are what was lacking in these units.
I would attempt to repair them myself before sending (for a fee) to BLI. Seems a simple fix, and the same fix might even work on them all, as they all have the same symptoms. Good project for the cold/wet days ahead for most. (Up north anyways.)
And I would fix the driver pick-up issue before resorting to a keep alive.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
John-NYBWLike my Pennsy M1B Mountain, it has wipers on both front and year truck of the tender.
The wipers on the axles are only picking up from one wheel, the other is insulated, of course. 12 wheels on mant of my BLI tenders and only four pick up electricity.
Keep in mind, too, that traction tires are nothing but big insulators. So a 2-8-2 might only have three drivers actually collecting current from each rail.
gmpullman John-NYBW Like my Pennsy M1B Mountain, it has wipers on both front and year truck of the tender. The wipers on the axles are only picking up from one wheel, the other is insulated, of course. 12 wheels on mant of my BLI tenders and only four pick up electricity. Keep in mind, too, that traction tires are nothing but big insulators. So a 2-8-2 might only have three drivers actually collecting current from each rail. Good Luck, Ed
John-NYBW Like my Pennsy M1B Mountain, it has wipers on both front and year truck of the tender.
OK, that makes sense. So I'm guessing the front truck has the right hand pickup and the rear truck has the left side pick up. When the front right wheels hit dead rail and there is no pick up from the right side driver, the loco stalls.
I already had the K4 disassembled so I'm going to check out the fixes you suggested. If that works, I can do the same on the other problem locos. Maybe it won't be necessary to buy Keep Alives for them, especially since I can't find instructions on where to wire them.
ricktrains4824 So, it looks a lot more like a defect, an "old age/corrossion", or a "crud build up" issue, not a design error... Don't get me wrong, some BLI designs were indeed flawed. (Reed switch for chuff sensor on the Mikado's?) But it appears that, as designed, the K4 is supposedly all wheel pick-up on the loco drivers, and outside axles (1st and 4th axles I would guess) on the tender trucks. Interestingly, the other linked thread, a post further down listed a series of tests that one could perform, and would have shown quickly the defect is somewhere inside the locomotive itself, while tether, and tender are fine. As is the actual design itself. While that particular design wasn't a problem, the execution by the factory (or even parts supplier issues? Supplied incorrect screws, for instance...) are what was lacking in these units. I would attempt to repair them myself before sending (for a fee) to BLI. Seems a simple fix, and the same fix might even work on them all, as they all have the same symptoms. Good project for the cold/wet days ahead for most. (Up north anyways.) And I would fix the driver pick-up issue before resorting to a keep alive.
I think you're right. When I started the thread, I thought it was a design flaw because all four of the locos I mentioned had dead right hand drivers. I hadn't considered the possibility it was a recurring problem with the assembly. The oldest BLI steamers in my fleet are the three Hudsons I bought from Trainworld for the bargain basement price of $130. They have no issues. I'm wondering if they were assembled before these problems started to occur with their assembly. Since we can't prove the pandemic started in a Wuhan lab, I doubt we'll ever get confirmation that the problem originated in a Chinese factory.