Just picked up a Paragon M1 over the weekend at a local train show. Very gently used real sweet and the price was right. I noticed tonight it had a tendency to stall out while going through a Walthers #6 turnout no matter what direction. It did how ever seem to run better in reverse for some reason and when I switched the direction of the locomotive (turned it 180) it appeared to run a tad better. It would hit a certain spot and just stop and then start moving again. This is a turnout that has been operational for well over a year and I've never had an issue with it before. So I went to the shelf and brought out two Proto Y3's an MTH H8 and an IHC 2-10-2 i use for helper service and all wen through without even the slightest hick up.
So this has me wondering has anyone experienced and issues with the pick ups on any BLI locomotives?
Thanks
It might be a dirty pickup, or possibly a bad solder, but my bet is on the tether plug not being fully seated in the receptacle. I must have seven or eight different Paragon and Hybrid engines, and when I experience problems with mobility, it is almost always related to the plug in the receptacle. Take the engine off the track, lay it on two chunks of flat styrofoam. The tender on one, the engine on the other, each on their sides. Lift the tail of the tender in an arc away from being aligned with the engine...you want space to work on the tether.
Take the finest needle-nosed pliers you have and place a tine on each side of the tether plug, one on each side of the wire bundle. Then, taking careful hold of the engine to keep it from moving, press the plug until its back is flush with the leading edge of the receptacle. You'll know when it is fully home. That, I have found, cures a lot of intermittent performance issues with BLI engines.
If that doesn't work, you must have dirt, corrosion, misalignments, or actually defective wires/solders.
-Crandell
I found that even if the plug is firmly seated, the BLI engines I owned were very sensitive to any dirt buildup on the wheels--especially tender wheels.
I really, really do not like the wire tether plug they use. It is inferior to MTH's drawbar system--which is also much easier to live with if you need to take your best engines on and off the layout to keep them away from the neighbor children that come over...
Tender plug was flush against the back of the cab but did notice some gunk on the axles of the tender and one of the pick ups didn't seem to be making a good contact. Will try it out some time tomorrow. Thanks
You may find my story interesting.
About 5 years ago, I bought a BLI 4-6-4 steamer at my LHS. I didn't run it often because I was still in the process of building a layout, but every time I ran it, I had performance issues. The engine would start and stop at random and stall intermittently.
Finally, I decided to do something about it. I examined the wiring, the pick ups, the wheels, but couldn't detect any problems. So, I wrote about the performance issues on one of the forums, and someone suggested that I purchase the QSI Upgrade Chip which I was unaware of up till then. Apparently, some of the older BLI steamers had performance issues and the upgrade chip solved those problems, so I bought and installed one.
One highlight of the upgrade chip is that it improved performance at slow speeds. After installing the upgrade chip, performance did improve, so I decided to test the slow speed feature. I began running the 4-6-4 at very slow speeds. I began to notice that everytime the pilot wheels reached the frog of a turnout (Atlas #6), the engine stalled. If I pushed the engine forward just a little so that the pilot wheels cleared the frog, the engine ran perfectly, even at slow speeds, until the pilot wheels encountered the frog at the next turnout. No other engine stalled on any turnout. The balky BLI engine did successfully clear the turnout when running in reverse.
This made no sense to me, so I called the Customer Service Department at BLI. They told me to send the engine in so that they could look at it. Unforunately, the engine was out of warranty so it cost me $45.00, but BLI repaired the engine and returned it to me. The engine is now one of my best performers.
What did BLI do to repair the problem? I have no idea. But, your problem sounds identical to mine. You might call Customer Service at BLI and ask them anbout this and see if there is a fix that they can give you over the phone. Good luck and let us know if and how you solve your problem.
Rich
Alton Junction
I am with Crandell about tender plug. While you have it upside down, hook power to the tender wheels and see if the engine fires up. If not the wire it self may have gone bad. I have had that happen with my M 1a. New wiring harness cost me around $8.00.
Ken
I hate Rust
richhotrain You may find my story interesting. About 5 years ago, I bought a BLI 4-6-4 steamer at my LHS. I didn't run it often because I was still in the process of building a layout, but every time I ran it, I had performance issues. The engine would start and stop at random and stall intermittently. Finally, I decided to do something about it. I examined the wiring, the pick ups, the wheels, but couldn't detect any problems. So, I wrote about the performance issues on one of the forums, and someone suggested that I purchase the QSI Upgrade Chip which I was unaware of up till then. Apparently, some of the older BLI steamers had performance issues and the upgrade chip solved those problems, so I bought and installed one. One highlight of the upgrade chip is that it improved performance at slow speeds. After installing the upgrade chip, performance did improve, so I decided to test the slow speed feature. I began running the 4-6-4 at very slow speeds. I began to notice that everytime the pilot wheels reached the frog of a turnout (Atlas #6), the engine stalled. If I pushed the engine forward just a little so that the pilot wheels cleared the frog, the engine ran perfectly, even at slow speeds, until the pilot wheels encountered the frog at the next turnout. No other engine stalled on any turnout. The balky BLI engine did successfully clear the turnout when running in reverse. This made no sense to me, so I called the Customer Service Department at BLI. They told me to send the engine in so that they could look at it. Unforunately, the engine was out of warranty so it cost me $45.00, but BLI repaired the engine and returned it to me. The engine is now one of my best performers. What did BLI do to repair the problem? I have no idea. But, your problem sounds identical to mine. You might call Customer Service at BLI and ask them anbout this and see if there is a fix that they can give you over the phone. Good luck and let us know if and how you solve your problem. Rich
They replaced the wheels. The early runs of BLI steam locos had sintered iron wheels (like old Athearn Blue Box locos) which are antyhing but smooth, which helps traction but pick up dirt like a magnet picks up iron filings. This was later swiched to nickel plated wheels (and I believe they offered replacements for early purchasers) which are much less likely to pick up a caking layer of dirt, at the expense of some traction. What you get is a smooth surface in contact with a smooth surface so better electrical transfer from the track to the loco. The rough nature of sintered wheels means the contact is like a bunch of pinpoints over the area in contact with the rail. For a gross approximation, consider a piece of aluminum foil, crumpled and spread out. Lay it on your desk - how much surface area is actually in contact with the desktop? Now take a piece that is perfectly smooth like it is on the roll - now how much area is in contact with the desktop?
ANother issue may have been like that in my PCM T1, one of the wires in the tender was not correctly inserted into the plug in connector that connected the pickups to the circuit board (not the connector between loco and tender). The result here was that pickup was only on the one side fo the tender trucks, no power on one side was coming from the loco wheels at all. I simply put the conenctor pin back in the correct orientation and that solved that problem, no more stalling at even the slowest speed over unpowered frogs.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker richhotrain You may find my story interesting. About 5 years ago, I bought a BLI 4-6-4 steamer at my LHS. I didn't run it often because I was still in the process of building a layout, but every time I ran it, I had performance issues. The engine would start and stop at random and stall intermittently. Finally, I decided to do something about it. I examined the wiring, the pick ups, the wheels, but couldn't detect any problems. So, I wrote about the performance issues on one of the forums, and someone suggested that I purchase the QSI Upgrade Chip which I was unaware of up till then. Apparently, some of the older BLI steamers had performance issues and the upgrade chip solved those problems, so I bought and installed one. One highlight of the upgrade chip is that it improved performance at slow speeds. After installing the upgrade chip, performance did improve, so I decided to test the slow speed feature. I began running the 4-6-4 at very slow speeds. I began to notice that everytime the pilot wheels reached the frog of a turnout (Atlas #6), the engine stalled. If I pushed the engine forward just a little so that the pilot wheels cleared the frog, the engine ran perfectly, even at slow speeds, until the pilot wheels encountered the frog at the next turnout. No other engine stalled on any turnout. The balky BLI engine did successfully clear the turnout when running in reverse. This made no sense to me, so I called the Customer Service Department at BLI. They told me to send the engine in so that they could look at it. Unforunately, the engine was out of warranty so it cost me $45.00, but BLI repaired the engine and returned it to me. The engine is now one of my best performers. What did BLI do to repair the problem? I have no idea. But, your problem sounds identical to mine. You might call Customer Service at BLI and ask them anbout this and see if there is a fix that they can give you over the phone. Good luck and let us know if and how you solve your problem. Rich They replaced the wheels. The early runs of BLI steam locos had sintered iron wheels (like old Athearn Blue Box locos) which are antyhing but smooth, which helps traction but pick up dirt like a magnet picks up iron filings. This was later swiched to nickel plated wheels (and I believe they offered replacements for early purchasers) which are much less likely to pick up a caking layer of dirt, at the expense of some traction. What you get is a smooth surface in contact with a smooth surface so better electrical transfer from the track to the loco. The rough nature of sintered wheels means the contact is like a bunch of pinpoints over the area in contact with the rail. For a gross approximation, consider a piece of aluminum foil, crumpled and spread out. Lay it on your desk - how much surface area is actually in contact with the desktop? Now take a piece that is perfectly smooth like it is on the roll - now how much area is in contact with the desktop? ANother issue may have been like that in my PCM T1, one of the wires in the tender was not correctly inserted into the plug in connector that connected the pickups to the circuit board (not the connector between loco and tender). The result here was that pickup was only on the one side fo the tender trucks, no power on one side was coming from the loco wheels at all. I simply put the conenctor pin back in the correct orientation and that solved that problem, no more stalling at even the slowest speed over unpowered frogs. --Randy
Randy,
That is very interesting. I went down and looked at the wheels, and you are right. They did replace the wheels, I can see the difference.
That may be more of Allegheny's problem than the suggestions about the wire connections. His problem is identical to mine and it sounds like he picked up an older BLI engine.
Hi!
Your issue is timely for me. I'm building a new HO layout and using Atlas turnouts (code 100) and have 4 crossovers using the new # 8s. Well, my BLI Paragon Santa Fe 2-10-2 and 2-10-4 stall on the dead frog at slow speed. Sooooo, I picked up the Atlas #200 relays and easily wired them in, and now the problem is gone. I haven't had the problem with the # 6s, but if I did, the solution is the same.
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
The M1's are the most finiky of all my BLI locos (I have at least one of every PRR prototype).
Mine had what I described in a much earlier post as "overspray" on the wheel treads. This severly hampered the pickup and they exhibited symptoms much like what you describe. I was able to carefully remove the substance with a small dremel wire brush. This made a huge difference, although those are still the most tempermental.
One has recently had an upgrade chip installed. This has helped low speed and a few other things, but again, still the most quirky of all my BLI models.
Hope this helps.
Guys, thats for the replies and the very good information. I did check the wheels late last night and they were a little dirty but nothing out of the ordinary. I knew there was a chip upgrade but didn't know what it was for sounds like it's worth the investment. I will say the wheel issue sounds to be the ticket. I wish I would have checked the board earlier today so I could have called their customer service but it will have to wait til Monday. Yes it's an older one as far as I can tell, I don't see the M1 listed on their website anymore if that means anything. I do plan on powering all of the frogs on the layout eventually but it really frustrates me is that a low end locomotive like an IHC command what ever will crawl right through the turnout along with everything else I tried and this things stalls..... oh well time will tell and I'll see what BLI has to say come Monday, thanks again
Figured I would post what I found after speaking with the tech from BLI today.It appears that he M1's drivers may have been slightly out of gage causing a short circuit. After going through the trouble shooting procedure I found that the rails of one turnout were slightly out of gage causing the short circuit
. The tests were:
Test A: with an Ohm meter check the pins on the locomotive/tender connector with the plug removed the check continuity between the left pin and the left drive wheels and the right pin and the right drive wheels. If continuity is good there is nothing wrong inside the locomotive. If it is not good it can be a few things a bad connector or bad connections inside the boiler the connections simply need to be tightened up.
Test B: with the tender disconnected from the locomotive call up the locomotive on the throttle and try some of the sound functions, if they work this means the wheels are clean and making good contact roll the tender back and forth just to see if there is a dead spot but most likely there isn't. The tender wheels are insulated from side to side the rear picks up one rail and the front picks up the other. this test confirms the wheels and pick ups are good.as well as the decoder.
Test C: with the tender tethered to the locomotive find a section of straight track and let the locomotive run a few scale mph, while it's moving pick the tender up off the rails and hold it as you move along with the locomotive. if it doesn't stall when you pick the tender up off the rails this indicates that the tether is good.
If all three test are good then the problem is not in the locomotive or the tender or any of it's connections.
I figured some might already now stuff like this but then others may not. Got it all right from Larry the tech at BLI and figured I would just pass it along as good information.
Thanks for the up date. Did you happen to ask what to check for if you pick up the engine with tender still on the rails and it dies? I know the tender is picking up power, Decoder Pro can read and program the decoder.
Tender is not sending power to the engines motor. My older BLI Heavy Mike (came the blue box) has this problem. Engine is light so it does not make it around the bench with power coming from the tender not being sent to the motor.
Yes that would indicate there is an issue inside the locomotive shell. or the plug in the rear of the locomotive. He said a common problem is those two wires both on the outside edge of the plug go up to two separate mounting screws that have a tendency to work themselves loose. He said the fix is just remove the shell, (which I am hesitant to do) and tighten the two brass screws If I understood him correctly. I will say that the mountain is not as heavy as I would have expected it to be and it possibly will need some weight added under the boiler. Should be plenty of room as I can see a lot of empty space in there. I have to go check out one of the new Paragon2 with the synchronized sound and auto programing.
Allegheny2-6-6-6He said the fix is just remove the shell, (which I am hesitant to do) and tighten the two brass screws
Thanks Allegheny, I will check that out. Removing the shells are a little never racking. I have never had my Heavy Mike apart, but can all most field strip my M1A like a M-16. I had to fix it way to many times.
I have a BLI Paragon2 N scale E8 that would not run through Peco Insulfrog switches. It stalled on most of the switches or stopped and started over. I ended up replacing my Peco Insulfrog switches with Electrofrogs and now all is well. I think these engines are very sensitive and dont do well with plastic frogs. I dont have any steam yet on my layout so I cant help you there. Do your switches have a powered frog? Might want to look at that.
Yes some do and some don't but I believe the issue was isolated to this one Walthers/Shinohara #6 turnout which is powered. It will run through an Atlas custom-line non powered turnout with no problems. I suspect the flanges were out of gage.