Model railroading as an art form

[Mr Ron]

    There are three classical forms of art; painting, sculpture and architecture In addition there is the dance, music, literature and other performing arts. All of these are recognized worldwide as forms of expression. Fine arts became a separated skill as opposed to the decorative or applied arts. Those practicing the fine arts have made their mark on the world with their contributions to society. There is a great amount of notoriety that goes with being famous in the art world along with great monetary rewards. The world of architecture also has its art creators; Frank Lloyd Wright being the most recognized among the thousands of living and dead architects. What has this to do with model railroading.

    Architects of buildings use models of their design to present an illustration in 3 dimensions that people can see and be able to understand. The model is made in a scale that is large enough, but not overpowering. What happens to the models that architects make. Most times they become displays in their office if they are good enough to become award winning architecture; many are scrapped. In model railroading, we see a scale model of a locomotive, scenery, structure depicting a full size slice of everyday life. To me, that puts model railroading at a skill level that can be considered art. Yet model railroaders do not enjoy all the notoriety and fame that practioners of the other arts enjoy. Of course model railroaders fall into several groups; those who build kits or buy RTR models and those who devote all their artistic skill to produce a model that others can enjoy. I would like to see top modelers being recognized for their work by a worldwide organization. It’s time model railroaders were recognized for their craft instead of someone who plays with trains. Naturally not all of us model railroaders can compete on a world stage nor can all painters or musicians compete. But model railroaders should be considered an artist the same as a painter or musician or performer is with the rewards that come with such notoriety.

[Track fiddler]

Good evening Mr Ron

I do believe some already have.  John Allen being one of them and there is more.

 

 

TF

[Mr Ron]

True, but not the recognization that comes to artists, musicians and other art practioners; especially the monetary rewards that come with art.

[tstage]

Does it really matter?  If one desires recognition for their MRRing efforts then the best place to start is probably joining the NMRA.  YouTube is another good venue that will allow a modeler to exhibit their talents to a wider audience.

Personally, I enjoy MRRing because 1) I like trains, 2) enjoy incorporating certain learned skills to enhancing that enjoyment, and 3) enjoy sharing what I have learned with others in the hope that it will enhance their own enjoyment.  I have NO interest in changing the world's view of MRRing; it will always be skewed and misunderstood - like a lot of artistic endeavors - and really is of no consequence to me in my own enjoyment of the hobby.

Tom

[Southgate]

We have notable examples of known artist in our hobby, as mentioned above. In the area of traditional art, there countless people who call themselves artists, and a great many who are very artistic but dont make anything if it.

I see so much art on this forum, and enjoy it greatly. I include those who have perfected technical skills in mechanical, electronic, building, and other areas that the casual untrained eye would never conceive. Dan

[PM Railfan]

If i were standing next to you in your train room, were gawking at your 'world', and i said to you...

'Wow!, your very mechanical!" - that would imply im either crazy, a bad user of english, i only see one facet of the many that make up your layout (naivetee).

 

But if i said...

"Wow! Your very artistic!" - that would imply imagination, creativity, on your part.

 

I cant think of any other way to aptly describe what we do. Some of you truely do craft masterpieces. And only in the form of 'art', do we find masterpieces and the like. Something that truely lends itself to this hobby.

You may think mechanical, electrical, etc., but yet you are still using your hands and mind to create/build something. Nothing any different than a master of painting does. Or a sculpter.

Even the Mona Lisa was a reproduction of a 'prototype'. How is that different from painting and decalling a GP35 for a unique road? (besides the price tag )

 

I have no problem describing Model Railroading as an art form.

 

 

PMR

[NVSRR]

You could argue it is multiple forms of art.   From painting to sculpture(5e scenery as a 3D picture) to story telling ( placement of figures and details to tell a story). Howard Zane refers to it as an art form. I do believe sellios does too.   I know others refer to it as moving 3D pictures and semi live history. ithimk it gets missed as a art form by the general public cause two reasons

they still see it as a toy because they don't get to see the well done layouts.  Just the usual train set

they can't place it into one category and get confused over that

 

shane

[mlehman]

Mr Ron

I would like to see top modelers being recognized for their work by a worldwide organization.

That is pretty well covered by the NMRA's (a worldwide organization) Acheivement Program. Not everyone's cup of tea, but becoming a Master Model Railroader (MMR) recognizes the skills and craft of model railroading through a well defined program.

The argument over art and model railroading will likely never be resolved, as there are many who want nothing to do with the term "art" despite it pretty clearly applying based on the creativity and skills involved. But I'd also argue that your definition is too exclusive. Even a newbie teenage model railroader trying to turn a 4x8 into a layout is developing the creative skills needed to carry on the art of model railroading, whether they desire recognition or not, is in part an artist.

[SpaceMouse]

This topic, in the good old days, would have been locked.

[:)Art entails picturing a scene, a sculpture (bridge or structure) or a layout and bringing that scene etc. into manifestation whether that includes using a kit or is sctratchbuilt. It can either be static like a diorama or fully functional like a operators' layout. 

Granted if a layout stops expanding like a plywood empire that is all the modeler wants, it might be considered minimalistic art.    

[SeeYou190]

Track fiddler

I do believe some already have.  John Allen being one of them and there is more.

Malcolm Furlow is the name I think of when I consider someone that made an art out of model trains.

-Kevin

[SpaceMouse]

Of course. Malcom Furlow was an artist in RL. And he modeled his fantastical vision.

But that doesn't mean that modelers that manifest something resembling real life, and for that matter, rivet-counters, aren't artists. And we have many of those type artists here on this site.

 

[Trainman440]

The definition of art is very controversial...technically, everything we make is art.

But imo there is a limit to when model railroading no longer is art.

For example, I think we can all agree that scratchbuilt freelanced engines on a layout with custom scenery is most definitely art, since its custom, and someone used creativity in order to achieve such a piece. 

I can even extend to the way someone consists the cars behind the train, or the speed at which one runs a train as a form of art, since it requires creativity. 

However, would laying bachmann EZ track in a circle (not in a creative manner), with an unmodified engine with the same consist of cars as printed on the train set box (unmodified) at full speed still be considered art? 

Where does one draw the line?

Charles

[wjstix]

When this subject has come (fairly often) in the past, seems like the concensus is that model railroading is a craft, not an art - or perhaps at best, folk art (kinda like handmade duck decoys). I suppose an entirely handmade brass steam engine could be considered a work of art perhaps, but I'm not sure just rearranging or adding details to an existing RTR product really could be art.

[NorthBrit]

Is creating a scene with a  model railroad in it a work of art?

To me 'Art is in the eye of the beholder'.

 

David

[York1]

SpaceMouse

But that doesn't mean that modelers that manifest something resembling real life, and for that matter, rivet-counters, aren't artists. And we have many of those type artists here on this site.

Agreed  ↑ ↑ ↑

There are several that contribute to the Weekend Photo Fun thread that are, I believe, not only skilled craftsmen, but artists.

I won't be accused of being either one, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying myself playing with trains.

[Mr Ron]

The public doesn't recognize the work of a modeler, but does so if it is a painter, architect, musician, etc. They see it as a toy and not as a work of art although much creativity has gone into creating it. I have seen people look at a painting and go OHH and AWR over it, but look at a fine railroad model and say; "that's nice". People in general just don't seem to equate a fine model as a form of art.

[Overmod]

Mr Ron

People in general just don't seem to equate a fine model as a form of art.

But what about Fine Art Models, whose T1 and GG1 would qualify in nearly anyone's respect and whose O scale Titanic surely does for anyone...

[Bayfield Transfer Railway]

This topic periodically resurfaces.

Short answer... most model railroaders don't give a hoot one way or the other.  Even if I built a model railroad whose perfection and artistry was John Allen to the Malcom Furlow power, I would be totally uniterested in what the greater world thought of it.

Same reason, really, that I'm utterly uninterested in the NMRA Achievement Awards.  I just do not care.

And I think across the sample population, more modelers agree with my attitude than disagree.

[dknelson]

I'd agree with Michael M. that most modelers do not care if their own efforts, or he efforts of our most accomplished counterparts, are regarded as "art" (and praised as good art) by the world at large, or in particular by the "art world."  But I'd not go so far as to say that most of us don't care what others think or say about the hobby.  Nobody wants to be laughed at or made into a figure of fun which is why Rod Stewart gets so angry and even defensive in a TV interview you can find on YouTube  where the host of the show belittles the hobby and the audience seems to join in the mirth.

Most modelers do bristle, at least inwardly, particularly when the entire hobby -- and I have actually read this and heard it said -- is characterized as weirdly sick and inappropriately infantile or even as primarily a perverse means for old men to lure children.  Then we do care what others think or say because it is an actual attack.  Not to be confused with ignorant indifference.

The art world in general has become very accustomed in recent years to accepting all manner of things as "art" that decades ago would not have been accepted, and the art versus craft distinction is getting harder to make.  Dioramas are among those things that are now regarded as art.  I have seen "art books" about dioramas that include photos of some of the best model railroads.  If the art world comes to regard some forms of model railroad accomplishment as art it won't be because we'd like them to.  They'll decide.

Regardless of whether we care about what others say or think in terms of model railroading being art or craft, our desire to enjoy the hobby satisfies something in us that is the artistic impulse or very much like it: the need/desire to create, and to find and share creative solutions to problems and challenges.  

Dave Nelson

[MisterBeasley]

George Selios has made a work of art with his Franklin and South Manchester.  I have two scenes from my layout they people have seen and thought they were real.  That's enough for me.

[Bayfield Transfer Railway]

To Dave Nelson's point about derision or mockery of the hobby:

1)  If someone mocks me for my hobby, it says nothing about my hobby, but a lot about them.

2)  I have an ample supply of middle fingers, as well as a list of parts of my body they may kiss, indexed for their safety and convenience in alphabetical,  geographical, and anatomical order.

I'm an introverted misanthrope.  The less I have to do with other people, the happier I am.

Also, if Rod Stewart walked out of the interview, the next interviewer would take a very different approach.

[selector]

Trainman440

The definition of art is very controversial...technically, everything we make is art.

But imo there is a limit to when model railroading no longer is art.

For example, I think we can all agree that scratchbuilt freelanced engines on a layout with custom scenery is most definitely art, since its custom, and someone used creativity in order to achieve such a piece. 

I can even extend to the way someone consists the cars behind the train, or the speed at which one runs a train as a form of art, since it requires creativity. 

However, would laying bachmann EZ track in a circle (not in a creative manner), with an unmodified engine with the same consist of cars as printed on the train set box (unmodified) at full speed still be considered art? 

Where does one draw the line?

Charles

 

You have said some good things there.  Chip and Tom, at least, will remember having this discussion in about early 2006-or-so, and after three or four contentious and increasingly acrimonious back and forth pages, the thread did indeed get locked.  I recall a certain Australian live steam operator, very accomplished as a scratch builder of transit rail interurban vehices, holding steadfastly, and eventually nastily, that nothing much about MRR is artistic.  The heavy majority of us disagreed with him.

If it is creative, not necessarily original, it is art.  If it must be conceptualized and built, it is art.  It might be highly technical and demanding, and it really helps to situate it if it IS original, or unique, but it is art.

It makes it a lot easier for the fussiest of us, when declaring something to be art, if the item is flamboyant, if it obviously has a lot of time and creativity invested, and if it is appealing.  Again, not necessarily widely appealing, just enough to garner the interest of even a single onlooker.

A model train set, once put together, is an expression, a statement, by the person generating it, even if it is entirely typical.  If your three year old presents you and the missus with a nice finger painting, one not unlike dozens you've seen previously, why should it not also be art?  It would not have been presented to you without its conceptualization, without some vision, and without the ability, desire, and persistence to effect it and to place it, once completed satisfactorily, into your hands.

[SeeYou190]

This topic has been bounced around in miniature painting forums as well.

Basically this is what the convention is for when a hobby becomes art: If the finished result can make the jaws drop of people that are not involved in the hobby, then it is art.

So, this is about as good as I can do at miniature figure painting:

Pretty good, but not art.

This on the other hand...

-Kevin

[Bayfield Transfer Railway]

May I respectfully point out we're drifting a bit.

The original post wasn't just about "is model railroading art," but "should it be recognized as art by the general public" which is, in point of fact, a different question.

And my opinion remains unchanged.  Model railroading may or may not be art, but I could not care less if the general public acknowledges it as such.

 

[Pauley]

I've given quite a bit of thought to this subject. It's a good conversation.

I fall on the side that, without doubt, model railroading is an art. My example is that if, instead of building a small model of our town, I had painted it on canvas, no one would doubt it was art (although not necessarily good art. ;)). 

And I noticed early on how much of my layout works starts on essentially a 3D canvas of white plaster products.

So I was jazzed when my layout and story was recently was featured in our local paper. 

More about my work here:

www.bostontype.com

 

[Pauley]

Oops.

 

^^^

That should be www.bostontype.com.

 

New here - no way to edit?

[rrebell]

Mr Ron

True, but not the recognization that comes to artists, musicians and other art practioners; especially the monetary rewards that come with art.

 

Having been in the art world you I see you have the illusion of monitary rewards, this is few and far between, most artists have regular jobs too. Now if you make it into the middle (a family friend has) you get a good price for your work but it is often feast or famine, you book many shows and at some you sell alot but others you take a loss which can cost alot and this is after paying a lot of dues. Being a success in the art world means self promotion, the better you are at that, the more sucsessfull you will be, sometimes talant has nothing to do with it.

[ctyclsscs]

There was a gentleman a few years back who was determined to help promote the hobby as an art to the general public, but I don't know whatever happened to him. He was specifically talking about the modelers whose work makes your jaw drop. 

I get what Ron is talking about, though. You see some folks who do minature scenes of some sort and they're holding shows in galleries where you never see model railroaders get that same sort of recognition. Does it really matter? No, but it would be nice if it happened.

Jim

[maxman]

Bayfield Transfer Railway

The original post wasn't just about "is model railroading art," but "should it be recognized as art by the general public" which is, in point of fact, a different question

No, model railroading is not an art.  It is a hobby, just like builders of model cars, planes and ships.  As are those folks who restore old cars.  Or weekend golfers or bowlers.

I'm sure that those builders can turn out beautiful finished things, and the weekend warriors can sometimes get a beautiful score.  But I'm also pretty sure that none of them have a debate about whether or not what they do can be classified as "art".  Seems only us model railroaders choose to have that discussion.

And if we choose to have this discussion in a public venue, then we deserve all the derision and mockery we receive.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

I would challenge Mr. Ron to better define "art" first.

I restore old houses for a living, and I design houses for a living. I help my clients decorate their homes as well. All things considered decorative arts. I have studied the history of Architecture and interior decorating. Here is a sample or two of my work:

 

 

 

But a lot of what considered "fine art" over the centuries is crap in my opinion. Just like not all Architecture is good. 

I don't really care if model railroading is considered art or not.

Again, I consider "art" to be a highly subjective and poorly defined term.......

Art goes hand in hand with "enlightenment", another highly subjective and poorly defined idea.

Sheldon