I am wondering only about motor and drive train quality. My LHS has a used E-9 Proto 2000 in the the blue box for $80.00. While I would not pay $80.00, maybe $70.00. It is DCC ready and I can test run it first on a good sizes layout.
Model Train stuff has a Walthers Proto E-9 of the same road name for $130.00 plus shipping. While new is good, saving $50.00 is all so good. But if the Walthers has a better motor and or drive train.
Thank's for the coming answers.
Cuda Ken
PS I have plenty of the older PK 2000 and PK1000 engines and I like them.
I hate Rust
Hi, Ken
I have a bunch of the older "Built like a tank" Proto E6, 7 and 8s and I've never had a drive train problem with any of them.
The first thing I noticed when I got a pair of the Walthers "upgraded" ones it that they were certainly quieter and seems like smoother but also a bit s-l-o-w-e-r with the 12:1 ratio.
Only a little bit of a trade off but there are times when I want to get out on the main and run 'em wide-open. Seems like the older Life-Likes would get close to 80, maybe 85 and the Walthers might get to 65 with a tail wind.
Walthers also improved the coupler mounting hardware. Some of the very early E's had horn-hooks and were tricky to convert to Kadees unless you used the #453 swing bracket adapter kit.
The original trucks on the L-L units had separate journal boxes. Sometimes these popped off, never to be found again. Walthers cured that with cast-in journal boxes.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/252082.aspx
I'm going to a train show here in Cleveland next weekend. There's usually a couple of vendors selling the blue-box L-L E units. In the past I've picked them up for $35 to around $50. I usually keep a few around for parts!
Hope that helps, Ed
Proto 2000 VS Walther Proto Engines
Since the title of this topic is generic, I'll give a generic answer. It depends.
But Joe Fugate and others have commented the old LL P2K mechanisms don't hold up over time and require maintenence. The E units may or may not be part of that trend. Most of the comments were around freight units like GP9, SD9, GP30's etc.
I would imagine Walthers P2k with their updated and reworked chassis will be better and more reliable, and of course with a corrisponding much higher price tag.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
While on the subject of the P2K engines..........what, if anything, is the difference between those in the bluish box vs the tanish box?
oldline1
gmpullmanThe first thing I noticed when I got a pair of the Walthers "upgraded" ones it that they were certainly quieter and seems like smoother but also a bit s-l-o-w-e-r with the 12:1 ratio.
ED,
A 12:1 ratio would make them faster, not slower at top end speed. They have a gear ratio of 14:1 which is the new ratio standard for all Mfger's. The consensus being....slower motor control/pulling power versus, top end speed.
I have quite a few P2k engines and they at the time were going for 75.00 brand new.......so 80.00 is still a bargain.
Take Care!
Frank
Thanks for the answers folks.
Ed Yea I been there and done that with first set of PK2000 E-6's and it was a pain! Did not think about the gear raito. I know that the newer Walthers E-7 I have when it ran was way slower and could not pull caboose comparied to the E-6's.
Rio Grand Said "Joe Fugate and others have commented the old LL P2K mechanisms don't hold up over time and require maintenence". Far as the SD 7, SD 9 and F's units he is right! Or maybe I should say I have worked them to death! But I pull long trains and run them for hours.
Old Line 1 asked "While on the subject of the P2K engines..........what, if anything, is the difference between those in the bluish box vs the tanish box?"
A lot! The tan box PK2000 are pretty much a little better made Athearn Blue Box engine but not by much. I have 3 Monon BL2 on the forever RIP track. If you run DC there pretty good. I tried converting them to DCC and they ate decoders like Ninja Turtles eat Pizza.
Frank Far as car rear end raito you would be right! But in this case Ed is right, the newer engines are way slower than the Proto 2000's With them be electric motors maybe they rate the gear ratio backwards? By the way Frank we miss seeing you in the dinner!
Thanks for all the answers folks!
zstripeA 12:1 ratio would make them faster, not slower at top end speed. They have a gear ratio of 14:1
Hi, Frank—
I was just going by the description in a recent listing at MB Klein:
FeaturesSoundtraxx Tsunami Sound for DCC or DC Layouts Prototype Specific Details: Correct Non-turbocharged 645 Prime Mover Sound Finished in 1993-2000 Excursion Scheme Elevated Horn Stand with Metal Leslie S5T-RR Five-Chime Horn Extended Pilot MU Receptacles with Hoses Modeler-Applied Ditch Light Castings (Non-operating) Rotary Beacon (Non-operating) Duct Mounted Winterization Snow Shields Soundtraxx Tsunami Sound for DCC or DC Layouts Five-Pole, Skew-Wound, High-Torque, High-Efficiency Can Motor Helical Gears with 12:1 Ratio for Smooth, Ultra-Quiet Running Correct 36" Wheels Easy Multiple-Unit Operation Proto MAX Metal Knuckle Couplers
https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Walthers-Proto-HO-920-41384-E9AM-UP-p/920-41385.htm
I've torn apart lots of the gear towers on the original Life-Likes but have never had any of the Walthers versions torn down.
Regards, Ed
Ed,
The Walthers Protos I have are F's and they have 14:1 Gear ratios and they are not slow at all. I have them running with Athearn BB F's and I know for a fact that the Athearns were/are 12:1. The Athearns will run faster than the Protos when pulling alone....but when running together, they run fine. You have to remember...I run DC....So I can give the engines more voltage than the DCC decoders do. There was a thread about this some time ago, but I can't seem to find it.
Ken.....Have not been in the diner or on the forums much either.....had to have a couple operations on My shoulder again at the VA and have not really felt like doing much of anything. I had to stop working on My scenery/bridge redo....just can't do it...with one arm. It has gotten somewhat better...but healing is taking longer with My age.....one day at a time.
As I understand it Life-Like / Proto had different manufacturers making different engines, so it's hard to make a blanket statement on how good they were. As far as I can tell, the old LL E-units and SD-7/9 units are very reliable, but the GP-9s and some other four-axle units had the infamous "cracked gear" issue (which is not all that hard to fix of course).
Shoulders hurt, far more than anyone would think and the rehab is long too. Best of luck.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Keep shopping. I own four blue-box E8/9s. I bought a pair of Amtrak E8s from eBay for $112 shipped, a single NYC cigar-band E8 for $54 shipped, and an undec unit from a hobby shop in Chicago for $50 flat. All appeared to be new in the box (and the undec, definitely so). So far I've wired one of the Amtraks for DCC and it runs beautifully. Bit of a pain as they aren't DCC-ready, but I'm very happy with them. A friend has three Proto E7s with QSI sound, the chips have been troublesome (and we're having a heck of a time replacing them) but in my club's DC days they did great.
Anyway, my point is -- no need to spring for the new ones -- if you are comfortable soldering in your DCC decoders, I'd lurk on eBay for a blue box unit and keep a target price of $50-$60 shipped. The convenience of DCC-ready is nice, but $80 (and even $70) seems high for a used one.
Aaron
Most of the blue box ones should be DCC ready - there is an 8 pin plug on that square circuit board in the back. However, those dual filament Mars light flashers need to go, so you might as well just hard wire the decoder and take that board out. All the connections for rail pickup, motor, and lights are right there for you. Just betware that one bad run with the high current motors. I did a couple and since there was enough room, I just left the factoory board in place, but disconnected. Cut off the decoder wires, put the original light bulbs back in, and it could be easily converted back to plain DC.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
cudaken Thanks for the answers folks. Ed Yea I been there and done that with first set of PK2000 E-6's and it was a pain! Did not think about the gear raito. I know that the newer Walthers E-7 I have when it ran was way slower and could not pull caboose comparied to the E-6's. Rio Grand Said "Joe Fugate and others have commented the old LL P2K mechanisms don't hold up over time and require maintenence". Far as the SD 7, SD 9 and F's units he is right! Or maybe I should say I have worked them to death! But I pull long trains and run them for hours. Thanks for all the answers folks! Ken
I have quite a few P2k engines and they at the time were going for 75.00 brand new.......so 80.00 is still a bargain. Take Care! Frank
I got most of my P2k units in the $55 - $65 price range when new - SD7's, SD9's and GP30's.
I dunno, my Geeps, the cracked gear era ones, with the axle gears repalced with Athearn ones have racked up a lot of miles at club shows running for hours at a time and are still going strong. They're barely warm when I finally pull in to my yard track to let someone else have a turn running their train. I suppose before I run them again, now that they haev been sitting a few years, I should redo the lubrication.
Rio Grand, the ones I ran to death where PK1000's Monon's and I think they where F-3's. They where great running engines and last for some time! If I could still find new ones I jump on them! But I finally ran them to death and the motor's gave up 1 by 1, I had 4. Well still do, just cannot figuer out how to replaces the worm gear covers with the way the chassis is made.
Far as E-Bay no way I am going back there! I have been E-Bay free for 8 years! I was a Power Buyer and spent well over $30,000! Mostly on car part's like a GMC 6-71 Supercharger on my 69 Charger R/T. Amazing what a few will make you think what you need!
Thanks for all the answers.
Ken
"Mostly on car part's like a GMC 6-71 Supercharger on my 69 Charger R/T. " I owned a 6-71 supercharger, but it was attached to a 6-71...
Anyway, aside from hobby shop finds, I find it hard to beat the Bay when I need something specific... but self control becomes difficult, I admit.
If it weren't for eBay, I wouldn't be able to have much more than a simple 4x8. Most of what I have came from ebay, and most of that at half or less than the original new price. Not to mention all the electronic parts I get that way as well. I would at least have a vastly different railroad - most of the locos and much of the rolling stock I need is all older production stuff and not available in hobby shops = btw there are STILL Walthers Plymouths on eBay - limited, shlimited. Still have not pre-ordered anything, and have been able to get what I wanted anyway.