As always, your feedback is appreciated.
I remember being disappointed when my first E-7 & 8s were purchased after the Walthers "upgrade" from the Life-Like design. They did change the gear ratio and ran noticeably slower (I didn't think it was as slow as 38 MPH range, though).
This thread addressed some E-8 running speeds during a test I did. The old L-L design had a top speed of 83, a little more respectable for passenger speeds.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/250067/2790735.aspx#2790735
I have several E-7s from the later Walthers runs, including the very same Milwaukee 18-A that you have. I'll run a few trials later today and report my findings.
Regards, Ed
I have some E7 diesels, but they are BLI locos, and they run pretty fast at top speed.
The closest that I have to your Proto E7s are some Proto E8/9A diesels but they also run pretty fast at top speed.
I do have four Intermountain F3A locos that run way too slow, and I have gone back to Intermountain about the problem but to no avail.
Sometimes, I think that we get stuck with lemons because others with the same locos have no problems.
I share your frustration.
Rich
Alton Junction
What DCC system do you have? And what is your track voltage? Some systems have adjustments or options based on scale where the N scale setting is about 12V, which means the loco motor will never see 12V because of drops in the rectifier and motor drivers on the decoder, and a common HO setting is 14.5-15v, WHICH does let the motor get a full 12V at full throttle. Other systems may not have an adjustment and are set somewhere in between to make them usable with any scale, but the end result is that voltage will also be slightly low for HO, again keeping the motor from ever seeing a full 12V like it would on DC. I've also seen people deliberately lower the track voltage, or use the N scale setting in HO, to avoid adjusting the decoders in each loco to reduce the top speed.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
We use Digitrax at my club. I am pretty sure it is set to HO voltage, but I will have to verify that on my next visit. Other locomotives I have run relatively faster on the club layout. Just yesterday I was running the Con-Cor Zypher at the club and it was going faster than my E7As.
I ran a few of my Walthers, nee Proto-2000 E units tonight and here is my result:
The Milwaukee engine has the QSI V.7 decoder but the other ones I checked were Tsunami TSU1000s. My track voltage varies, depending which of three boosters are powering the district from 12.8 to 13.1 volts, HO setting on Digitrax DCS-200 (input voltage is 14.2 volts).
As they say, your mileage may vary...
Ed
Reset your decoder to make sure there are no settings for speed table, or some non-default setting for CV5 to limit top speed - or just make sure CV29 is set appropriately (if using a long address, 34 is a good value - 28/128 speed steps, long address, analog (DC) operation turned off, no speed table), and check CV5 - it should either be 0 or 255 for max top speed possible.
I'd make sure CVs 5 and 6 are both -0-. However, I know at one time this forum had a lot of complaints about the Walthers Proto E-units being geared too slowly. It may be that someone offers replacement gearing that would speed it up - otherwise, you could try picking up one of the older LL Proto units and swap chassis.
OK, I made sure analog was turned off (CV 29 is set to 34), set CV 5 to 255, but the QSI Q1A does not offer CV 5. On my short test track I got 18-A up to 47 MPH. But the voltage on my test track is only 9 volts (I am using a SPROG).
I will bring it to the club after Thanksgiving and let it build up speed on a longer track before measuring the speed. I will also double check the voltage of the track at the club. At least it looks like I am going t be able to squeeze our a few more MPH, but it appears the gearing is off.
Thanks for all the tips.
OK...according to their website, QSI decoders support CV 5 (top speed) and CV 6 (midrange speed). I would try setting them both to zero, even if you don't think they're actually there (just in case).
IF there really is no CV5 or CV6 (or even if there is) it may be that the engine is using a speed curve, even if just a straight line one. So then you need to adjust CV66 (forward trim) and CV95 (reverse trim). The default value on both is 128, setting that higher should make the engine go faster. Try say 200 for both.
Trim is basically where you've set up a speed table you like, but need to make the engine run a little faster or slower to speed match it to another engine using the same speed curve. I know, based on the settings you've added, your engine shouldn't be using a speed curve...but if it doesn't have CV5, it has to be using some method to increase or decrease speed relative to another engine.
I double checked and the Q1a does not support CV6, but CV5, CV66, and CV95 are all there.
So I have now set CV2 Max Vols from 14 to 40, CV5 Max Volts from 1 to 255, CV66 Forward Trim and CV95 Reverse Trim from 128 to 200.
Now, testing on my short test track, I have hit 50 MPH! My test track is only five feet long. I really have to test this at the club on a long stretch of track so that I can build up some speed.So far I am only testing this on 18-A, once I improve that locomotive, I will work on 18-B which is slower than 18-A. Then the challenge will be speed matching this beasts.By the way, I stupidly measured the voltage with a regular meter the other day. I forgot I had to use a RRampMeter which shows my test track voltage to be 11.9. That makes more sense.
Once again, thanks for the comments and suggestions.
Don;t go nuts on the speed match. Just because you have a speedometer that can read to .1 mph, you do NOT need to match them that close.If they are within 1-3mph of each other at various speeds they will be fine together. Even larger differences can even out when they are coupled to a train.
Speed matching won't be hard, once you get them running about the same. Since you want to go fast, maybe try to get both to go as fast as possible, then slow the faster one down to match the slower one.
I like to keep CV2 low (or zero) and use a fair amount of momentum on CV3 and 4. On sound equipped diesels, that allows the diesel "rumble" sound to ramp up before the engine starts moving, a bit more like a real engine does.
Good news bad news. OK, I brought the engines to the club, let them warm up, and tested them by letting them run about 16 feet before measuring their speed. The improvement, an average of 43 MPH forward and 42 MPH reverse! As you can see no real improvement. That is the bad news. I am pretty sure this a a gear ratio problem that cannot be fixed with software.The good news is that the two locomotives now consist at the same speed! No further tweaking was necessary.I guess I will have to make this a point not to run this high speed train when anything faster is nearby so nobody else will compare the relative speeds. Too bad, it looks like I got a couple of lemons.
Not sure why I got 50 MPH on my test track. I should bring the RRampMeter to the club and test the voltage there. We might have an issue.Thanks again for all your help.
Are you using the Accutrak at home as well, or just calculating things? Make sure you are testing the same way. If you only have 9V on the test track and the locos run SLOWER at the club, there is definitely a track voltage problem.
Been watching this thread with interest.
I own a fleet of the old LL P2K E-unts that I'm hopping up, but had been considering purchasing a few of the newer Walthers versions (undecorated, of course). But, like my older run units, I would like to be able to run the newer versions at 70 scale mph, if I were to take them to a club setting with long mainlines.
I just wonder if Walthers' reps tested these newer E-units before giving their approval for factory production? If the rep is familiar with the hobby, I'm assuming that he/she would have caught the slow top end speed (unless the rep felt the top end speed was realistic, considering that most modelers don't have 30" radius curves on their layouts).
Lower gear ratios are good for smooth running, but from what I've been reading it appears that the pendulum was swung too far in the opposite direction and apparently we now have models of EMD "race horses" that can be out run by switchers!
I know I may be chewed out for this, but honestly, I didn't see anything wrong with the higher gear ratios of the LL units. In DCC mode, controlling low and top end speed on the old E-units was a non-issue; especially once the units are broken in.
Can the gears on these new units be swapped out as easily as on the old Life Like units?
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Suggest ask Walthers tech folks about gear swaps. They may have some different toothed wheelsets that they know will work. Or, driven trucks from which the wheelsets can be taken. If feasible I'd open the bottom of one of your trucks and count the teeth on a wheelset so you know for sure where you're starting. Of course, only one tooth fewer (of 11-12) would not make a big % difference but two fewer would make a noticeable difference.
But ask the Walthers guy whether the different gear will be compatible with the gearstack in the truck. For instance, I have a LL E6 where the 1-tooth different Athearn gears commonly available would not mesh (work) ok. In that case (Walthers did not have the wheelsets I needed to replace cracked axle gears) Walthers happened to have drive trucks for the LL E6s so I got several for the wheelsets, about $3 per axle. NWSL may have a solution for you as well, so I'd ask them also.
If these are like the LL trucks and you haven't opened the trucks before, it's not difficult to pop the bottom covers off and get the wheelsets out.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
AntonioFP45 I didn't see anything wrong with the higher gear ratios of the LL units.
Nor did I, Antonio
I was impressed with the very first Life-Like E-8 I purchased, the EMD demonstrator in the baby-blue, cream and silver paint. It still runs like a racehorse, as you put it so well, and even before sound decoders were available, these E's had a growling sound and a mass to them that was really impressive.
When they hit the diamonds at 90 per, you knew there was some weight and power under the cowling. I enjoy running long, fast passenger trains and seeing three or four of these E's on the head end meant that THIS train is going to get up to track speed without wasting any time!
There are still LOTS of early Life-Like E's available at train shows and EBay. At a show I attended back in October there was a dealer selling new-old-stock, blue-box E-6, 7 & 8s at $35 each! I bought a few just to have a parts inventory.
It might be worthwhile to completely swap the trucks, including the worm gear and attain your higher speed that way.
Good Luck, Ed
Gee, I appreciate all the continuing comments and feedback.
I used the AccuTrack to measure speed at home and at the club.
If I puchased some old LL E7a locomotives that run faster, then how would I take advantage of them. Do I just transfer the shells? If so, then what about the QSI decoder and sound, do I have to move these over too? Or, do I just transfer the wheels and gearing over to my Proto locomotives?
I think contacting Walthers to see if they have fixes for the gearing is a prudent thing to do. I will let you all know what I learn.
On the flip side......
Unfortunately, although their performance is quite decent, there is one issue with the old Life Like E's that, to a number of owners, is annoying.
Life Like tried to employ an extra element of realism by having each journal move vertically with the axle it's attached to. Unfortunately, after a while these journals can fall off while the locomotive is running. Since sometimes we might not notice it during a run, the journal(s) can wind up in "never-never" land.
Currently, afaik, cannibalizing other units for parts seems to be the logical solution. I typically look for damaged junkers as sources. Fortunately there are loads of LL E-units on the used market.
JPD Gee, I appreciate all the continuing comments and feedback. I used the AccuTrack to measure speed at home and at the club. If I puchased some old LL E7a locomotives that run faster, then how would I take advantage of them. Do I just transfer the shells? If so, then what about the QSI decoder and sound, do I have to move these over too? Or, do I just transfer the wheels and gearing over to my Proto locomotives? I think contacting Walthers to see if they have fixes for the gearing is a prudent thing to do. I will let you all know what I learn.
AntonioFP45Unfortunately, after a while these journals can fall off while the locomotive is running.
So true, Antonio. I must be one of the lucky ones since I have only lost three journal boxes off of maybe 2 dozen E units over the past 20 years. Walthers kindly sent me a bag of replacement boxes and with cannabalized dummy engines I have more than enough to spare. (back when Walthers still had a stock of L-L parts!)
I wondered how big of a job it would be to just swap the gearing from the old truck into the new or at least fit the new side frames onto the old truck. Maybe I'll have to take a look sometime.
In my case, speeding up the slower E's is not a high priority on my project list but it might be in the future.
I guess I don't understand what's going on here - the units in question run faster on a system with only 9V to the rails vs running on the club system which should be at about 15V on the rails? Unless the 'throttle' being used at the club is a Zephyr or Zephyr Xtra (which have an option to limit the top speed), there is nothing the Digitrax system would be doing as far as DCC packets are concerned that would cause the locos to run slower.
The overall slower than previous versions because of the gearing I understand. But I don't see how a loco that goes a measured 50 mph on 9V track voltage can only go 45 on what should be 15V.
I think I have confused the situation, let me clarify. I measured the voltage on my test track at home with a regular multimeter and got 9 volts. However, in a latter posting I mentioned that I remembered that DCC voltage cannot be measured correctly with a regular multimeter and I should have used the RRampMeter I have for measuring DCC voltage. When I do so my test track comes up at 12 volts (I think actually 11.9 volts). Interestingly, I just came back from the club and used the RRampMeter there. I found that testing various parts of the layout I see the DCC voltage range from 10.1 to 12.00. The section of the layout I was using for testing the E7A locomotives happens to be the section with some of the lowest voltage recorded.
So now I have to let the guys in the club know that we might have a voltage issue at the club. And I have to go back and test my locomotives on a section of the layout with better voltage.
Nevertheless, I think this is still going to boil down to a gear ratio issue.
The main issue indeed is the gear ratio - but there is definitely a problem on your club layout, 10-12V is way too low. 12V maybe if the booster scale switch is set to N scale, that would make sense, but a drop to 10V without a lot of load means VERY inadequate feeders or bus. Using a RRAmpmeter on Digitrax set to HO scale should net around 15 volts. If you are getting 10 to 12V readings and the system IS set to HO - then you have some serious wiring problems. I'd almost not want to run my locos on there - with that kind of voltage drop, I doubt anything but a very hard short (push a screwdriver across the rails type of thing) would even trip the circuit breaker. 3-4 amps flowing through a derailed loco wouldn;t trip the breaker but it sure would melt things.
rrinkerUsing a RRAmpmeter on Digitrax set to HO scale should net around 15 volts.
Don't forget to use an automotive lamp for "ballast" on the other end of the RR Amp meter. I have an 1156 single filament bulb that draws about 2.1 amps at 12 volts on a couple of alligator clips to attach to the meter.
See page 4 here:
http://www.tonystrains.com/download/rramp-appnotes-df.pdf
Either way - if it's down 3-5 volts, there's a problem - more so if that's a no load measurement.
This has been an interesting learning experience for me. So we found out that the DCC voltage at the club was low. We have the layout partitioned and on the section I was running my testing happened to be where the DCC voltage was the lowest. We increased the voltage on our entire club layout and I specifically tested the E7A locomotives on the other section. Now the average speed is 54 MPH. Not 60 MPH, but certainly better and closer to what I was getting on my test track.